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should the pledge of allegiance still be a thing in US schools?

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LDSman

LDSman

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    Maedar said:
    My view on this topic - and my view on America in general - just changed, after I saw this:

    https://www.rawstory.com/2019/02/11...sing-stand-pledge-allegiance/?comments=disqus

    WTF is going on, America?? Are we really this vile?
    Click to expand...

    How is America in general responsible for this? Some substitute doesn't know the policy and it's America's fault? Really?

    Better article.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wa...anor-after-refusing-recite-pledge-allegiance/

    Arrest for the failure to follow instructions and disrupting class. Want to talk about brainwashing? Here's an 11 year old spouting propaganda about being "brought here against his will." Was he born here or kidnapped?
     

    Maedar

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    • Arrest for the failure to follow instructions and disrupting class. Want to talk about brainwashing? Here's an 11 year old spouting propaganda about being "brought here against his will." Was he born here or kidnapped?
    Click to expand...

    He's 11 years old. A child.

    Use common sense.

    Ten years ago that teacher would be fired and her teaching certificate revoked.

    11 years old, and you're actually blaming the child.
     
    Last edited:
    LDSman

    LDSman

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    Maedar said:
    He's 11 years old. A child.

    Use common sense.

    Ten years ago that teacher would be fired and her teaching certificate revoked.

    11 years old, and you're actually blaming the child.
    Click to expand...

    You think an upset 11 year old can't disrupt class and refuse to follow instructions? Unless he's got a learning disability, an 11 yr old is quite capable of making decisions.

    The substitute won't be working in that school system again. Even ten years ago, it wouldn't be likely to get fired or get revoked. Teachers unfortunately get away with far worse. This isn't worth losing a sub over. Make sure all the subs learn from this and move on.
     

    Maedar

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    • You think an upset 11 year old can't disrupt class and refuse to follow instructions? Unless he's got a learning disability, an 11 yr old is quite capable of making decisions.
    Click to expand...

    I want to ask anyone reading this if they think someone who says this should even be allowed near children. Clearly he has none of his own if he thinks arresting an 11 year old is ever justified.
     
    LDSman

    LDSman

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    Maedar said:
    I want to ask anyone reading this if they think someone who says this should even be allowed near children. Clearly he has none of his own if he thinks arresting an 11 year old is ever justified.
    Click to expand...

    Amusing. "Is arresting an 11 yr old ever justified?"
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnew...-murdering-pregnant-stepmom/story?id=58613764

    I don't know. You tell me.

    As far as the pledge kid goes, I don't know. If the kid was refusing to calm down and comply then the school was probably justified. It's not like they can physically drag the kid out of the classroom. They could face child abuse charges. News articles always leave stuff out.
     

    Maedar

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    • You're comparing the crime of murder to refusing to say the pledge?

    Hear that, everyone, he compared murder to something that isn't even illegal.
     
    LDSman

    LDSman

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    Maedar said:
    You're comparing the crime of murder to refusing to say the pledge?

    Hear that, everyone, he compared murder to something that isn't even illegal.
    Click to expand...

    Amusing. I was refuting your comment about justifying arresting an 11 yr old.
     

    Maedar

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    • LDS, let me put it this way. I've seen so many horrible stories on the news these days about cops beating up pre-teens, and even worse replies from folks siding with the cops.

    Recorded footage is aired of a cop beating up a female 12-year-old student half his size. Comments call the kid a hooligan and say the cop was justified. Course, all the "hooligan" did was act rowdy in class, and rather than give her detention, the teacher has the cop beat her up.

    A cop is recorded on tape at a kid's birthday pool-party, using mace on a kid. Again, the cop is justified, and the "hoodlums" are to blame. Yeah, there house and all they did - maybe - was make too much noise, but it's their fault.

    It's like Rodney King with children.

    Are we such barbarians that this has become acceptable? Each time I asked, "WTF? Why is this an issue? Police who beat up kids are bullies and dirty cops who should be stripped of their badges and fired, end of story!"

    What has America become? I ask you that. We used to be better than this. The flag is NOT more important than a child's well-being. End of story.
     
    LDSman

    LDSman

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    Maedar said:
    LDS, let me put it this way. I've seen so many horrible stories on the news these days about cops beating up pre-teens, and even worse replies from folks siding with the cops.

    Recorded footage is aired of a cop beating up a female 12-year-old student half his size. Comments call the kid a hooligan and say the cop was justified. Course, all the "hooligan" did was act rowdy in class, and rather than give her detention, the teacher has the cop beat her up.

    A cop is recorded on tape at a kid's birthday pool-party, using mace on a kid. Again, the cop is justified, and the "hoodlums" are to blame. Yeah, there house and all they did - maybe - was make too much noise, but it's their fault.

    It's like Rodney King with children.

    Are we such barbarians that this has become acceptable? Each time I asked, "WTF? Why is this an issue? Police who beat up kids are bullies and dirty cops who should be stripped of their badges and fired, end of story!"

    What has America become? I ask you that. We used to be better than this. The flag is NOT more important than a child's well-being. End of story.
    Click to expand...

    Beating up pre-teens? Problem with some of these videos is you only get part of the story. That 12 yr old, swung on the cop and got dropped for it. Minimal injuries but the media and you call it her getting beat up.
    Teachers don't get to tell the cops to "beat up" students. You try removing what could be a full grown teen from a class when they don't want to leave. You don't want cops following their training for non compliant individuals then remove them from schools. Of course that means that teachers will get hurt when a bad student attacks them.

    Rodney King is a bad example. He was high on PCP and kept getting up to fight the cops.
     
    LDSman

    LDSman

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    Maedar said:
    LDS Man, do you have kids?

    If you do, is this truly your idea of "discipline"?
    Click to expand...

    Question 1 is none of your business. And question 2 is not relevant.

    Here's a question for you.

    How would you handle a middle school student who refuses to comply with the teacher? High school student? One who disrupts class vs one who doesn't. And not just about this incident but in general. Nothing whatsoever to do with the pledge of allegiance.
     

    Maedar

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    • How would you handle a middle school student who refuses to comply with the teacher? High school student? One who disrupts class vs one who doesn't.
    Click to expand...

    That is a no-brainer. I'd give him detention and call his parents, plus probation if it became a continuing and/or serious issue. I'd also have him speak to the guidance councilor.

    If it started happening on a regular basis, I'd consult the principal and/or dean of students, seeing as that is their jurisdiction, and do not have further authority.

    Only if he was a danger to others or himself would I consider legal or psychiatric intervention.
     
    Last edited:

    EnglishALT

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    • While it's not exactly similar as the pledge, here in Japan, children must stand and bow at the start and finish of every class. While the vast majority of the time this is not a problem, on some occasions children have refused to do so. Atleast twice I have seen an adult teacher grab a child by the arm and physically throw them out of their chair for refusing to do this.
     
    LDSman

    LDSman

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    Maedar said:
    That is a no-brainer. I'd give him detention and call his parents, plus probation if it became a continuing and/or serious issue. I'd also have him speak to the guidance councilor.

    If it started happening on a regular basis, I'd consult the principal and/or dean of students, seeing as that is their jurisdiction, and do not have further authority.

    Only if he was a danger to others or himself would I consider legal or psychiatric intervention.
    Click to expand...

    All things that happen after you get them under control and out of the classroom and only work if they choose to comply. How do you get someone under control and out of the classroom so the other things happen? What are the teachers supposed to do if they believe the student is an immediate danger or the student just wants to disrupt class and refuses to leave the room?
     

    EnglishALT

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    • LDSman

    LDSman

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    EnglishALT said:
    While it's not exactly similar as the pledge, here in Japan, children must stand and bow at the start and finish of every class. While the vast majority of the time this is not a problem, on some occasions children have refused to do so. Atleast twice I have seen an adult teacher grab a child by the arm and physically throw them out of their chair for refusing to do this.
    Click to expand...
    Isn't that about showing respect to the teachers?
    Maedar said:
    LDS Man, a teacher who cannot escort a child to the principal's office should not be teaching. Plain and simple.
    Click to expand...
    "Escort". Implies cooperation where none may be.

    So no old teachers, no small teachers, no handicapped teachers. Only strong, fit, large teachers?
     

    Maedar

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    • One, that is Japan. Two, the story focuses on an apology from the principal.

    Three, these incidents are exceptions, not the rule.

    A teacher worthy of his certificate has taken enough child psychology and ethics classes to control a room full of students. And viewing them all as potential thugs only worsens it.

    Edit: LDS, I remember my first grade teacher was a 72 year old woman, and she could make the fifth grade students cower simply by raising her tone.

    NOBODY messed with her, and that included the PTA.

    (That last part was a joke I heard about some years later, but it was hardly surprising.)
     
    Last edited:
    LDSman

    LDSman

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    Maedar said:
    One, that is Japan. Two, the story focuses on an apology from the principal.

    Three, these incidents are exceptions, not the rule.

    A teacher worthy of his certificate has taken enough child psychology and ethics classes to control a room full of students. And viewing them all as potential thugs only worsens it.
    Click to expand...

    You've never been in a classroom that was hostile to the teacher or had thugs in it. Ethic classes and psychology don't work as well as you hope.

    https://www.apa.org/education/k12/teacher-victimization

    APA considers it a serious problem.
     
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