Church and State

So, I'll gear this mostly towards the US since that's we're most of our userbase is from but feel free to discuss other countries as well.

How much influence over the government does the Christian church (or other majority religion) have? Is it a problem? In what ways? If it is a problem, what can be done about it in the short and long term?

Simple:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

Anything that deviates from that is a problem. End of story.

Maedar said:

Simple:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

Anything that deviates from that is a problem. End of story.

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I agree but I feel like you're not answering a lot of what I asked here.

gimmepie said:

So, I'll gear this mostly towards the US since that's we're most of our userbase is from but feel free to discuss other countries as well.

How much influence over the government does the Christian church (or other majority religion) have?

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Not as much as some hope or some fear. There are so many different denominations of Christian out there and they don't agree with each other.

Is it a problem?

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Hard to say. The gov't is supposed to reflect the desires of the voters. If your campaign has you elected by appealing to the local Christians, then you should be following what they want as long as it complies with the Constitution. Can have drawbacks. Look at Scientology and Clearwater, FL. Clear abuses there.

In what ways? If it is a problem, what can be done about it in the short and long term?

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Part of the problem is people applying their "morals" to others. And that's a problem for all groups, religious or not. Not sure if there is a solution.

Maedar said:

Simple:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

Anything that deviates from that is a problem. End of story.

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And yet people try to create laws prohibiting people from practicing their religious, dietary habits (kosher meat), decorating how they want, and from saying things that can be considered insulting to certain religions. And that doesn't even consider the various things the hardcore atheists try. Freedom of religion doesn't equal being free from ever hearing or seeing anything religious.

LDSMan, it clearly says, "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof".

I oppose ALL laws that you mentioned, and I oppose the folks - like Trump and most folks on Fox News - trying to do so.

Faith shouldn't be something that directs public policy. I'm not sure about the laws in my state, but in many states you can use religion to put your kid through Gay Conversion Therapy (which doesn't work) and not use modern medicine such as vaccines (I understand if a kid can't be vaccinated due to age or medical issues).

Maedar said:

LDSMan, it clearly says, "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof".

I oppose ALL laws that you mentioned, and I oppose the folks - like Trump and most folks on Fox News - trying to do so.

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Note it isn't just Trunp or Fox that are trying to push religious or anti religious laws or engaging in religious litmus tests.

Kamala Harris' questioning about the Knights of Columbus to a nominee to a district court position can be considered a violation of church and state, and a clear violation of not applying a person's religion to their consideration for a government position.

https://freebeacon.com/columns/the-outrageous-assault-on-the-knights-of-columbus/

The same could be said for Diane Feinstein saying "The dogma lives loudly within you" to Judge Barrett when considering her for the 7th circuit court of appeals.

http://www.bloomberg.com/amp/opinio...tein-s-anti-catholic-questions-are-an-outrage

Maedar said:

LDSMan, it clearly says, "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof".

I oppose ALL laws that you mentioned, and I oppose the folks - like Trump and most folks on Fox News - trying to do so.

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Dude you really got to get over the republican hate and look at the antiChristian bias from the Dems.

There is no specific or direct influence on government from any particular church, denomination, religious group, etc in the US, because of separation of church and state. However, there are private Christian groups that can lobby legislatures. Christian voters influence politics through voting and participating in campaigns. Politicians themselves may be Christian. I would say there is a lot of informal bias, but very little to no formal bias if that makes sense. Whether that is problematic, it depends how you view things. All of these practices are totally legal and just a part of democracy where any citizen can vote and express his or her's values. But that means that certain things, such as previous bans on gay marriage, can find their way into public policy. Simply because I am a Christian, its hard for me to say that this is a very bad thing on the whole (at least in modern times and with some exceptions like gay marriage, which I think should be legal).

Dude you really got to get over the republican hate and look at the antiChristian bias from the Dems.

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Examples, please?

And don't give me the garbage Trump spouted the other day about Democrats being anti-Semitic. There are 36 Jews in Congress and all but 2 of them are Democrats,

Maedar said:

Examples, please?

And don't give me the garbage Trump spouted the other day about Democrats being anti-Semitic. There are 36 Jews in Congress and all but 2 of them are Democrats,

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See Englishalt post for two examples. Dems do that a lot. Dems even demand that Christian college groups allow leadership that isn't Christian. Trying to force Christians to do things against their beliefs like provide contraception or support gay weddings. Etc.

Can we not make this a partisan debate? This isn't a thread about republicans or democrats and their political war.

gimmepie said:

Can we not make this a partisan debate? This isn't a thread about republicans or democrats and their political war.

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It does show that the religious influence is far less than some people think.

LDSman said:

Dude you really got to get over the republican hate and look at the antiChristian bias from the Dems.

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You know that a majority of people in the US (including Democrats and/or Liberals) are Christian, right?

gimmepie said:

Can we not make this a partisan debate? This isn't a thread about republicans or democrats and their political war.

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To get back on topic how do you feel about a church endorsing political candidates, should they be able to weld any kind of political influence with its members? At the same time should political candidates appear at church services and give speeches?

To get back on topic how do you feel about a church endorsing political candidates, should they be able to weld any kind of political influence with its members? At the same time should political candidates appear at church services and give speeches?

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How do I feel about it?

It's an unethical and anti-American practice, a blight on what this country stands for.

Why? Because:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion , or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

Simple as that.

Maedar said:

How do I feel about it?

It's an unethical and anti-American practice, a blight on what this country stands for.

Why? Because:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion , or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

Simple as that.

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What part of that is considered "making a law"? Furthermore not all political candidates are members of Congress. We see Presidential candidates show up to churches and make speeches all the time during an election season.

IC

And what is your opinion on this?

https://www.rawstory.com/2019/03/de...eparation-rule/?utm_source=push_notifications

THAT is "making a law" in my book.

TheGhostHunter said:

You know that a majority of people in the US (including Democrats and/or Liberals) are Christian, right?

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Thats what people say and yet there are still issues.

Maedar said:

IC

And what is your opinion on this?

https://www.rawstory.com/2019/03/de...eparation-rule/?utm_source=push_notifications

THAT is "making a law" in my book.

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That not making a law. That's pointing out that you can't deny services, like updating school/daycare playgrounds simply because the building happens to be a church.

The Washington Post adds, "school districts are now open to contract with religious organizations," although "the services they provide must be 'secular, neutral and non-ideological.'"

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Please LDS Man, explain to me why non-Christians should have to pay taxes for a Christian institution, which is itself tax-exempt.