Gay teenager faces charges over relationship with younger girlfriend

CarcharOdin said:

Forgive me if this is slightly off topic, but I need to get my 2-cents in. I've said this before, the Age of Consent laws in America are a real f***ing mess (pun still intended) and they need to be cleaned up.

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Couldn't agree with you more! It's one of the drawbacks of having separate states all determining their own criminal codes. I've always felt that criminal law should be the same state to state, but where states can create statutes to protect the state's interests (that do not conflict with federal law). But that is not how the system works in the U.S. and so it'll take a concerted effort to try and normalize those laws as best they can.

CarcharOdin said:

People may disagree with me, but 16 is the most common in America and across many other countries, so I think that's what it should reasonably be for all states.

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No disagreements from me on this. However, I do believe a close-in-age exemption should also be included.

CarcharOdin said:

Of course, maybe the whole "14 not being 'mature enough'" thing might also be because sex education in America is so pitiful; I learned more about sex from reading about it online than by a school lecture. A lot of people blame teen pregnancies on the media, but I personally think its more of the fault of inadequate sex education. I think abstinence-only education doesn't adequately prepare ANYONE for the deed.

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This definitely. Abstinence-only education is a joke and an utter failure. It's a product of a puritan belief and is so out of touch with reality.

CarcharOdin said:

On the topic at hand, that they waited until she was 18 before deciding to press charges comes off like a dick move to me. I find it erroneous how society, especially conservative American society, seems to expect you to stop finding teenagers attractive the moment you turn 18.

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You're absolutely right. But thankfully, what society expects, it doesn't always get.

I'm in agreement with the two of you that state-by-state laws (anywhere not just in the US) are a problem that really needs to be taken into account. I also agree that abstinence only education is ridiculous and delusional, that's why I'm thankful we don't really have it here.

Back to what I was saying earlier; I wasn't just using my own experiences I see it all the time. The "heart" will never be smarter than the brain, it is just unfortunate that it tends to be more persuasive. Even ignoring the appropriateness of the law it is the girl's own fault that she is suffering this, whether her girlfriends parents are bigoted homophobes not. She knows the law and she chose to step outside its bounds and take the risk that she may suffer repercussions which is putting her in a position that could ruin her future, not to mention the affect the situation is probably having on the younger girl. It's like I said, whether we like it or not sometimes we have to force our personal feelings aside and think a situation through. This relationship was a bad idea and regardless of the circumstances she needs to learn to use her head.

I appreciate the open discussion, it's not every day you get a well-spirited debate on the internet that doesn't end up being aggressive, but my point of view isn't likely to change in the near future.

gimmepie said:

The "heart" will never be smarter than the brain, it is just unfortunate that it tends to be more persuasive.

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I think the many couples who did follow their heart are glad they did, so they see no unfortunate consequences of doing so.

Ultimately, you make decisions based on what you feel is right and that takes both your heart and brain working in tandem.

Say I'm a murder. My decision to murder people feels right.

Does this make my actions right though, just because I believe them to be?

The problem with this case is that, because of Kate's parents feeding everyone a ******** sandwich, people are still being driven by emotional responses. Their emotions have caused them to ignore the new information that has since been made available.

Mr. X said:

Say I'm a murder. My decision to murder people feels right.

Does this make my actions right though, just because I believe them to be?

The problem with this case is that, because of Kate's parents feeding everyone a ******** sandwich, people are still being driven by emotional responses. Their emotions have caused them to ignore the new information that has since been made available.

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See, you just described an extreme scenario where a person is listening only to their emotions. I already said it takes both the heart and the mind in concert to make proper decisions. In this example, you have a desire to kill someone, but your mind reminds you that murder is wrong and has some very drastic consequences so instead you decide to vent your anger by leaving an angry telephone message or writing a snarky message on their facebook page. The other problem with your scenario is that the only people who think that murder is okay are people with a conscience. For those people, killing someone would be as difficult as clipping their nails.

Belldandy said:

I agree with you in some regards, Fenneking. The law is definitely not targeting homosexuals; it applies to everyone. Sure, we can't assume, but what we can say is that:

- The case is taking place in Florida
- Florida is part of the Bible Belt, a region in the USA with very active religious individuals

- Florida has not recognized same-sex marriages or unions. We can assume it is because of these activists opposing the movement
- Said activists also have made Florida a Republican State (thus, against abortions and gay marriage, as per religion)
- The culture and politics of Florida are therefore quite influenced by religious movements and perceptions
- It is therefore not ignorant to assume that the younger child's parents, like the defendant's suspicions, may be homophobic, religious or a mix of both

Now, that isn't to say that maybe they aren't, but we don't know the whole story... So really, all we can do is assume or speculate different things until more information is known.

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Essentially, you are saying, if someone lives in Florida and is accused of homophobia, we should feel free to assume the claim is true.
This sort of line of reasoning lacks cogency in every respect and lends itself to hysteria and ill-informed accusations.

Today on CNN, "Jim and Laurie Smith (parents of the younger girl) insisted that the girls' gender has nothing to do with the case. They are concerned about ages."

At least listen to both sides before making a judgement. Even with testimony of both parents we cannot assume who's lying or augmenting the truth. Therefore, we cannot say the younger girl's parents are homophobic or are not homophobic.

The heart can't determine your actions. It lacks the ability to.

Your confusing the heart with the brain.

People saying that the heart knows what it wants are deluded. Any thought's, any desires, are from your brain. Not the heart.

Mr. X said:

The heart can't determine your actions. It lacks the ability to.

Your confusing the heart with the brain.

People saying that the heart knows what it wants are deluded. Any thought's, any desires, are from your brain. Not the heart.

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Mr. X, when people talk about "following their heart" they're talking about the things that they feel, which originates in their brains. It's an expression, like "going with your gut." Of course people know their heart doesn't do the talking. It's just a muscle, designed to move blood throughout the body. It keeps us alive.

The brain is so much more than conscious thought. It's instinct, and emotion, and imagination. Rational thought is such a minor part of a brain's functioning that the other aspects of the brain's function dictates a whole lot more in our lives than some people are willing to admit. To a certain degree we can control our reactions to certain stimuli. But to think that we have total control is delusional at best. For example, you can touch a hot element on a stove for a certain length of time, but eventually you will react by pulling away.

This is how, for the most part, we learn things when growing up. Our parents will tell us what we should and should not do, but being the curious creatures that we are, it isn't until we try for ourselves that we learn the lesson. Human beings learn by doing. We always have. Some of the best lessons we learn are through the mistakes we make. It's therefore essential that we allow ourselves to make mistakes, or to accept when we fail at something. Because in so doing, we learn something. Or put another way: we learn far more from our failures than from our successes.

And now, because Kate decided to follow her heart, she will learn what happens when a adult has sexual relations with a child.

So whats with the debate over this case? You know, the learning experience? She followed her heart, and now it's time for her to have her learning experience - That it is illegal for a adult to have sexual relations with a child.

Ignorance of the law isn't a excuse. Do the crime, do the time. She refused a more then fair plea deal, and her and her parents fed the media a bunch of lies about the circumstances of the case. It's time that she learns what the consequences are when you break the law.

Mr. X said:

And now, because Kate decided to follow her heart, she will learn what happens when a adult has sexual relations with a child.

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Only because she lives in a state that does not have a close-in-age exemption in their laws. If two teens are in a relationship and one of them turns 18, that 18 year old automatically becomes a criminal. It's the most stupid thing I've ever heard in my life.

Mr. X said:

So whats with the debate over this case? You know, the learning experience? She followed her heart, and now it's time for her to have her learning experience - That it is illegal for a adult to have sexual relations with a child.

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Except in places where the law contains a close-in-age exemption. That's what the debate is supposed to be about. Not about any of these girl's actions.

Mr. X said:

Ignorance of the law isn't a excuse. Do the crime, do the time. She refused a rather weak plea deal, and her and her parents fed the media a bunch of lies about the circumstances of the case. It's time that she learns what the concequences are when you break the law.

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If your 14 year old son or daughter was in a relationship with someone who was 17, would you automatically call the police on that 17 year old the moment he or she turns 18? My answer to that question would be no. I would not. But then, I live in a country that recognizes these things happen and make allowances for it. Like I said, 14 and 15 year olds can be intimately involved with someone up to 5 years their senior. 12 and 13 year olds can be intimately involved with someone 2 years their senior. I guess it just depends on the society in which we're raised. Here, we don't punish our children for being human.

Oh, but here's a question for you. Let's say this 18 year old girl and 14 year old girl are living in a state where they don't reach legal adulthood until they are 21. Does that then make it all right for the two to be in a relationship since both are still considered minors?

Your still under the incorrect assumption that she was 17 when she began the relationship. She wasn't. She was 18, a adult, when she entered the relationship with the 14 year old, a child. Her being 17 when the relationship began was part of the ******** sandwich her parents tried feeding everyone.

What would the age of consent be in this case though? That age differs from the age that a person is consdiered a adult.

But to your question, if 21 was when a person is considered a adult, would you support a relationship between a 20 year old and a 8 year old? Afterall, neither are adults.

Mr. X said:

Your still under the incorrect assumption that she was 17 when she began the relationship. She wasn't. She was 18, a adult, when she entered the relationship with the 14 year old, a child. Her being 17 when the relationship began was part of the ******** sandwich her parents tried feeding everyone.

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Ummm, insulting the girl's parents was really uncalled for. Show some respect.

Mr. X said:

What would the age of consent be in this case though? That age differs from the age that a person is considered a adult.

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The age of consent in Florida is 18. Anyone engaging in sexual activity with another person under 18 could be charged under Florida law. Including a 16 year old boy with a 15 year old girl, or the reverse. The punishment for having sex with someone under 18 is 15 years in prison. There is no close-in-age exemption.

Mr. X said:

But to your question, if 21 was when a person is considered a adult, would you support a relationship between a 20 year old and a 8 year old? Afterall, neither are adults.

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Mr. X, again you keep deflecting the topic. We're not discussing murderers or prepubescent children here. We're talking about two consenting teens with a 3 year age gap (their ages are now 18 and 15 btw).

I didn't insult the parents. I stated fact - They tried passing off lies, ********, as fact when the case first hit the news. Then again, the truth hurts. So I guess Truthful and Insulting would have similar definitions.

The age of consent was directed to your comment about raising the ages at which a person is considered a adult, as was the case between the 20 and 8 year old.

The age gap is 3 now. But your forgetting something - The ages were 18 and 14 when the events occurred. And Kate was 18, a adult, when she decided to enter a relationship and have sexual conduct with a child.

Also Florida DOES have a close in age exemption. It does, however, apply for those over 16 and in relations with those up to 23 years old.

An interesting question you asked about the higher age there Jay...

As Mr. X said one factor there is what is the age of consent? A higher age of adulthood doesn't necessarily mean a higher age of consent. As for would I have a problem with the relationship or support it... I admit I'd be less against it, assuming that the age of consent is still 16, but I would still have a problem with a person who will almost certainly be finished developing into biological/psychological (not to be confused with legal) adulthood being in a relationship, likely one of a sexual/intimate nature, with a person who is by far still a child psychologically. That and the issue of the age difference still having one girl well below the age of becoming an adult when the other hit it would still be ther.e.. but it wouldn't be quite as bad since the younger girl would have then hit the age of consent. At that point it is more up to the discretion of the parents of the younger girl and the partners themselves.

Well, we'll just have to see how this plays out. I will be watching for further updates to this story.

Okay, as far as my thoughts go on this case, I think it's all a bunch of bull.

I myself am actually in a rather similar situation at the moment. I started dating my boyfriend when he was seventeen. He's eighteen now, and I turn fifteen next week. We're no longer legally allowed to be together, and there's an investigation going on because Child Protective Services received an anonymous phone call saying that someone believed we were having sex because we were apparently seen being "overly affectionate" on the street. In my case, I say that's ridiculous, because we stopped officially dating at the end of January, and even then we didn't kiss or anything in public. So, in my situation, I can understand that of these girls.

Age of consent laws don't cover maturity, and there's really no way that they can, so, in my opinion, it is entirely dependent on those involved.

P.S. - I'm in NY, and the people doing the investigation honestly don't give a flying f*** about the close-in-age laws. They'll try to persecute you regardless. I'm not even allowed to see my ex, and haven't for a month now. They also don't give a f*** what the kids involved in the investigation say. They pretty much ignore us, and try to put the "criminal" in jail by any means necessary. They, and those that file the reports, are only too happy to abuse such laws. By this, I mean the one who made the report on my ex was, I'm 99.9% certain, his cousin, whom asked me out and I rejected, and he did so out of jealousy.

So, basically, I'm in support of these girls.
And, if they did make things up like Mr. X said, then good for them. If they outright admit everything, the girl would be in jail in a flash, and nobody that's prosecuting her would think twice nor would they care. If they're trying to protect her, they should. After all, many aspects of the relationship are subjective, and it's honestly none of our freaking business. We don't know what happened, how their lives go, so people should just leave them alone.

I don't think there's anything wrong with these girls dating, I feel like they're overblowing the case here. Hopefully the elder girl will not go to jail for dating a younger girl.