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Why "Touchscreen"?

26
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15
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I've seen some developing games around here and just wondering "why install a 'touch screen' feature"? (actually, it would be more like a second window for a mouse because you're not really touching the actual screen, but I guess everyone knows that.) How will it improve your PC game? And from what I gazed at, it's not really that impressing. In fact, it's more of a tedious feature. Besides, unless there some cool interaction with the main screen, what's the point? Wouldn't it make more sense to put the mouse features in the main game screen? For one, the game can be put in full screen without that stub of a window messing up the screen resolution. Seriously guys, what the point in providing a second screen? The most I've seen from it is just put a picture in it, navigate menus, or play an already existing puzzle that other people will probably get bored of because they already know how to solve it. If that the only purpose of the "touch screen", then you guys aren't putting that much thought in it. Look, I know it was probably hard to code it, and I know that most of the members on here are kids, but if your gonna put that kinda feature in your game, then how about make it more useful so everyone can enjoy it.

Sorry if it's tl;dr for you, but I just had to say something.
 

davidthefat

I Love C++
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  • Age 30
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I've seen some developing games around here and just wondering "why install a 'touch screen' feature"? (actually, it would be more like a second window for a mouse because you're not really touching the actual screen, but I guess everyone knows that.) How will it improve your PC game? And from what I gazed at, it's not really that impressing. In fact, it's more of a tedious feature. Besides, unless there some cool interaction with the main screen, what's the point? Wouldn't it make more sense to put the mouse features in the main game screen? For one, the game can be put in full screen without that stub of a window messing up the screen resolution. Seriously guys, what the point in providing a second screen? The most I've seen from it is just put a picture in it, navigate menus, or play an already existing puzzle that other people will probably get bored of because they already know how to solve it. If that the only purpose of the "touch screen", then you guys aren't putting that much thought in it. Look, I know it was probably hard to code it, and I know that most of the members on here are kids, but if your gonna put that kinda feature in your game, then how about make it more useful so everyone can enjoy it.

Sorry if it's tl;dr for you, but I just had to say something.
Thats exactly what I was thinking a while back... Got flamed for it, but I am used to it, I get flamed for a lot of stuff I say.... Like "I want steroids to be legal".. Seriously, its not the freaking DS or GBA, bump up the resolution to full screen. Intergrate the mouse controls into the whole game. I just don't get it, why even bother developing for the PC if you are going to limit your self to a DS standard?
 

Andrew McKenzie

Supporting Pokemon Since 1999
356
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17
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Argument in case. Actual PC games do allow use of mouse controls in place of joysticks, y'know.

And it'd supposed to make it feel more like the actual games.
If you don't like it, instead of asking pointless questions about its implementation, just don't play the games that use it.
It's as simple as that really.

It's added because it's supposed to emulate using a stylus touching a touchscreen.
Now, obviously, touchscreens aren't going to actually work on PCs unless you're running the Game on a Tablet PC, in which case, that'd be an even more awesome feature.
Or would you rather play at a GBA standard with having to assign certain buttons that you have to memorise or look up all the time if you forget them?
Implementing touchscreen-like features allows the game to be free flowing, without holding you back.
Movement with arrows, interaction with touchscreen. Simple as.
 
Last edited:

KingCharizard

C++ Developer Extraordinaire
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Argument in case. Actual PC games do allow use of mouse controls in place of joysticks, y'know.

And it'd supposed to make it feel more like the actual games.
If you don't like it, instead of asking pointless questions about its implementation, just don't play the games that use it.
It's as simple as that really.

It's added because it's supposed to emulate using a stylus touching a touchscreen.
Now, obviously, touchscreens aren't going to actually work on PCs unless you're running the Game on a Tablet PC, in which case, that'd be an even more awesome feature.
Or would you rather play at a GBA standard with having to assign certain buttons that you have to memorise or look up all the time if you forget them?
Implementing touchscreen-like features allows the game to be free flowing, without holding you back.
Movement with arrows, interaction with touchscreen. Simple as.

Personally I dont wanna use a touch screen for my POKEMON game and I wont, But for my future project which Iam not gonna go into too much detail is gonna be based off the pokemon universe it would be a great interface and an easy way to change your gear... thats all im saying at the moment... But I see uses for it other than a pokemon game...
 
26
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15
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@Andrew McKenzie: Yes, I'm well aware that some PC games use the mouse other than the keyboard or joysticks, but if they want to make a Pokemon game with a touch screen, why don't they just hack the DS games? there wouldn't be a difference between them making it on RPGmaker, It'll just be less tedious work to do, since most of them just take/edit existing sprites of Pokemon DS games anyways. I'm just saying, if they want to use it, why not make it more appealing, there can be other uses for it then just an menu organizer.
 

Worldslayer608

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In all honesty, the touchscreen is pretty handy all in all. I think the idea of some people not liking it is based on the fact that it is often used in the DS fashion which turns people off. The touch screen allows for more user friendly interaction with the interface, and saves what can sometimes be a headache of configuring a bunch of keys.

More or less it is a feature that will continue to enter games here on the Pokecommunity, and while some will always complain, there are others that are happy it is included.
 
664
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In my opinion, saying "Why emulate the DS?" is like saying "Why make a pokemon fangame anyway?".
Yes they're two different things, but its the Dual Screen that makes a Pokemon Game what it is. Including it in a fangame is a bonus.
Yes i like the Dual Screen features on all the games because it gives the creator a little more space to be able to do what they want.
e.g. bag, pokedex etc.

While i'm planning on using it for my game, that may change to something else, but people will always want to 'emulate' the latest system in any way they can.
 

Great Mazinger

nope.avi
85
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14
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  • Age 32
  • Seen Nov 27, 2013
Movement with arrows, interaction with touchscreen. Simple as.

Having your left hand on the arrow keys all the time sounds rather uncomfortable. Unless you want to keep switching your right hand between the mouse and the arrow keys constantly, at which point the interface becomes rather cumbersome to switch between.
 

Ninja Caterpie

AAAAAAAAAAAAA
5,979
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16
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why don't they just hack the DS games?

Because you can't. Well, not very well, at any rate. It's not like "click...and the work is done".

Great Mazinger said:
Having your left hand on the arrow keys all the time sounds rather uncomfortable. Unless you want to keep switching your right hand between the mouse and the arrow keys constantly, at which point the interface becomes rather cumbersome to switch between.
Would it not be possible to change the Arrow Keys to WASD?

tbh, Dual Screen sounds stupid on fangame because the computer has one screen. There's one whole touchable (well, clickable) screen for a reason.
 

Maruno

Lead Dev of Pokémon Essentials
5,285
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16
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This is Pandora's shipping crate for me.

There are two parts to this argument, which people are mixing up: dual screen and touch screen. It's perfectly possible to have one without the other, but most people won't have tried to think of that.

My problem with a dual screen is that this is a PC, not a DS. A PC has one huge screen, whereas the DS was designed specifically for two tiny screens (and thus is allowed to have one screen for the overworld and another screen for a menu/Pokétch - the PC is not). The dual screen is simply unnecessary fora PC game, because the screen can easily be redesigned to compensate for whatever the second screen may offer.

Another issue with the second screen is that everyone seems determined to copy HGSS pixel for pixel, rather than doing something good with it. I thought having the Pokétch in the second screen while idle was brilliant - it's a hugely easy way to check your party, use Itemfinder and scan for legendaries. Having a menu there is just stupid, because you need to click to get to it, and it just reminds you that this is a game (you know what I mean) by sitting there with its "Save" and "Options" buttons even when you're not using it.

Another complaint I have with it is the claim that a dual screen somehow makes Pokémon "better". were the Gen 3 games really that horrible to use? No! They worked just fine, thank you. The redesigned happened because the games went to the DS, NOT because the interfaces were in any way flawed. There were all of three buttons you needed to remember - the "okay" button, the "back" button and the "open menu" button (with the "use registered item" button as an optional fourth). I would feel ashamed if you're complaining this is in any way difficult to remember.

One suggestion I will make is that a second screen absolutely need not be "the same size again, directly beneath". It can be short and wide, above or below, long and thin, on either side, a border around the main screen, anything you can imagine. One of my favourite ideas is to have a short bar underneath the main screen that contains text messages when talking to someone, and the party Pokémon icons/HP bars when idle. It doesn't take up much space, is very useful and practical in and of itself, is remarkably different to anything else going around at the moment, and doesn't distract nearly as much from the actual playing of the game. Having a huge second screen, without using it to the fullest in all parts of the game, is just not a good idea.



Now, the touch screen. For most people, this is a synonym for "the second screen", and once again I remind you that it really isn't.

If anything, a touch screen in a game like this is even more unnecessary than a dual screen. The simple reason is that the entire game is played with two hands on the keyboard (arrow keys and CXZ whatever). Having to move over to the mouse every time you want to pause the game or go into battle is just not comfortable. The games worked perfectly well before with their keyboard-only controls, and I strongly suspect that the only reason they have touch screen capability is because they have to because they moved to the DS (i.e. rather than because a touch screen is simply better to use). The fact that, in the DS games, all the menus can be just as easily navigated with the D-pad anyway should be a clue that the touch screen part is a novelty rather than an integral part of the game.

Then we remember that most people think "touch screen" = "second screen", and thus only implement the touch screen features on half of the game's window. That's just stupid. Why must I be restricted to doing all my clicking in the bottom half of the window? And if you answer "there's no reason to click up there", then I say that's just because you're using the old boring restricted layout the real games use, rather than using a bit of imagination and coming up with better layouts. For one, you can make much better minigames if you allow the whole window to be touchable.



By now you're thinking I despise any kind of change to the games, and that I think Gen 3 was the pinnacle of programming. Well, you're wrong (even though there was nothing wrong with how Gen 3 worked in the first place). An extended screen would be great if it's implemented properly, and the same goes for a touch screen. My gripe is with how they're currently used.

They're used by the people who just want to emulate HGSS pixel for pixel, and so there's no innovation there (please don't start scouring for counter-examples - I know I'm generalising). As it stands, the DS layout and interactivity is really quite unsuitable for a PC game, for the reasons I mentioned above plus many others I couldn't think of. Yet people insist on sticking to it, for the sole reason of "HGSS is the newest game, and I want to be just like it!". The same goes with the tileset argument. Now excuse me, but that's just not a good enough case.

And put it this way: if you're good enough to put in a touch screen and/or second screen, you're more than good enough to move things around a bit and improve the interface. That's the easy part. This just makes the lack of innovation even more annoying - it's like a painter creating a masterpiece but not putting it in a frame.

If you want your game to be good, do it differently. HGSS is not the pinnacle of Pokémon achievement, no matter what you may think. You are not bound to its limitations. Some of its design rules can be bent. Others can be broken. Free your mind.
 
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Dual screen is just a nifty extra to have, just like a dual screen. You dont need them, but some people like them. :)
 
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Amen. "Touch screens" are lame; we're not developing for the DS here. If you're going to have a mouse-controlled interface than just use the whole screen and make it bigger. Also, constantly-present HUD bugs the heck out of me; I want to experience the game without all sorts of information crowding the view, and when you can just press a button to bring up the menu, I don't see the point.

Admittedly, the Poketch was a great idea and very useful, however that's not the direction most of these fangames are going; rather, you're going the way of HGSS with the menu on a "second screen" beneath. In my opinion, if you're going to have ANY second screen, it should be optional and/or be something that would be useful to always have, like the Poketch's map/step counter/party view/itemfinder.

Also alternating between mouse and keyboard control is silly.

tl;dr if you're not making a DS game (and you're NOT), don't use the DS interface.
 

davidthefat

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Thats why I beleive people should stay away from the Pokemon essentials... People just don't ever listen...
 
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This is mainly directed to Maruno.

If you're going to incorporate mouse support, I'd say it's better to use one large window than two DS-sized ones (with just one clickable). This is for the simple reason that you're developing for the PC, not the DS.
As great as solely using the keyboard is, it can be improved upon. Are there any (non-RPG Maker) PC RPGs that do not use the mouse? The keyboard is great for moving around Pokémon's tile-based maps; however, you can assign that to WASD and use the mouse for everything else (menus, interacting with people, battles etc).

Before I decided to restart Amethyst, I actually had mouse controls working for a significant part of the game. If you go to the old thread and look at the screenshots, you can see how they've been designed to use the mouse with only one window; for example, large clickable icons for the 'start menu' or the PBR-esque battle layout.
On the map, holding the mouse button down caused you to walk in the direction of the cursor (albeit very crudely, as I didn't spend much time on it). But more importantly, I modified a pathfinding script I found; double-clicking on a tile would cause you to walk to it if possible, and clicking an event such as a door or NPC would make you walk up to it and interact with it. Clicking on the player would bring up the menu. It worked surprisingly well, despite occasionally slowing the game down; the whole game could be fluently controlled with just the mouse. Most of the time, it was actually easier than using the keyboard; pathfinding and not having to scroll through menus with the arrow keys were excellent additions.
I'm probably going to use improved versions of these ideas in the new version of Amethyst; the larger resolution I've chosen helps this.

So overall, I agree that having a second screen is pointless; you want to use the capabilities of the PC, not a DS. A 'touch screen', or more correctly mouse support, is great when it's done right (i.e. not just copying the official games).

EDIT: davidthefat, just so you know, I did all that with Essentials.
 

Maruno

Lead Dev of Pokémon Essentials
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This is mainly directed to Maruno.

If you're going to incorporate mouse support, I'd say it's better to use one large window than two DS-sized ones (with just one clickable). This is for the simple reason that you're developing for the PC, not the DS.
As great as solely using the keyboard is, it can be improved upon. Are there any (non-RPG Maker) PC RPGs that do not use the mouse? The keyboard is great for moving around Pokémon's tile-based maps; however, you can assign that to WASD and use the mouse for everything else (menus, interacting with people, battles etc).
The thing is that those RPGs are designed to use the mouse from the start. Essentials (which is what most people are using) uses keyboard-only, and is optimised for that (based as it is on the third Gen games which are also button-only). It's very easy to go wrong when adding mouse features to something like that, and the vast majority do.

As you said, it all depends on whether you do it well. And that requires thought, which people tend not to do (not to this extent, at least). If you've managed to get a great mouse system working, then good for you. I just hope it doesn't start feeling like an RTS rather than a Pokémon game.

I'm not sure why you directed your post towards me, and then agreed with me. You sounded like you were going to argue (and I even told you not to drudge up counter-examples to my generalisation, thank you - we both know the problem are the HGSS-copiers).
 

Worldslayer608

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This is not so much a counter example, as it is an example of what the difference between a Dual Screen with touch is, and what a touch screen is.

GUI_Idea_by_worldslayer608.png


This screen is intended to use a 'touch' feature with mouse input. Mouse input can be pretty user friendly and also allow more information to remain on the screen at a given time, which ultimately is nice to have for most people.
 

~JV~

Dev of Pokémon Uranium
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This is not so much a counter example, as it is an example of what the difference between a Dual Screen with touch is, and what a touch screen is.

GUI_Idea_by_worldslayer608.png


This screen is intended to use a 'touch' feature with mouse input. Mouse input can be pretty user friendly and also allow more information to remain on the screen at a given time, which ultimately is nice to have for most people.

You know, the screen design is quite nice, but as said above, having a menu and too much info in the screen can be quite bothersome, I myself can't focus my eyes in the small top left "playable" part. That sounds lame, but it's true. And if I did, I would just forget about the rest of the screen, making it that is sitting there, all the time, quite useless and bothersome.
 

davidthefat

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I rather have this than most other GUI systems that are currently in pokemon fan game, its simple and takes advantage of teh pc resolution... But It would be better if it was full screen

gui1w.png
 

Worldslayer608

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The point of my post was not to show off the interface, it was to show people that there are differences between a touch system and a dual screen, and that it has its own set of possible features.
 

davidthefat

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I am not a big fan of the words that this community uses on a lot of stuff... Like "touch screen" Its not a damn touch screen... Its just a GUI, you are not touching anything, you are using a mouse... Just stop using that word please... Also I agree with JV, only using 1/4 of the screen for actual game play is not very wise
 
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