"Be a man"

"Be cool, and be kind of a dick", "Grow some balls", "Man up", "Be a man". We have constructed this idea of masculinity, that doesn't give young boys a way to feel secure in their masculinity or "lack" thereof. Society makes boys prove their dominance and masculinity all the time. Within the peer group culture of young men, each one of them is posturing based on how the other boys are presenting themselves. What they're missing, is what they each really want, or who they want to be. In the good times, guys are typically pretty close to one another, but when things get a little bit worse there is the tendency for guys to be on their own and distance themselves from one another.

Kids in this society get up every morning, and prepare to put their mask on, but they don't know how to take their mask off. This society of young boys is growing up to be afraid of showing people who they are. Young boys really buy into this culture that doesn't feminise, if we're in a culture that doesn't value caring, relationships, empathy, boys and girls, men and women, torture themselves because we're a race afraid of showing what we feel to others.

Less than 50% of boys and men with mental health challenges seek help. Every day, 3 or more boys commit suicide in the U.S. As a society, how are we failing our boys? Are we obsessed with desensitising a gender? How damaging is this culture of telling males to "Be a man"?

A few notes before we begin, this is a thread on mental health and conditioning. An observation on culture and approach to mental health in young boys. Yes we could also talk about the female oppression and the pressure on females, but I feel it's a different kind of discussion, society plays its part in putting pressure on any gender to conform. But here, we should look at this culture of "Be a man", and how it affects young boys (and the domino effect thereof). Gender equality is a different subject entirely.

Citation from numerous sources, here's a good starting point for figures.

The idea of "be a man", as I understand it, is not so much "be a hypercompetitive, emotionless jerk" as it is "if you have problems, don't just sit there broken, do something about it". Obviously, some people take this to extremes, but I don't think the underlying meaning is the same from person to person.

And I thought gender equality meant both genders should get the same rights, not both genders should act the same.

pokemonleaguechamp said:

The idea of "be a man", as I understand it, is not so much "be a hypercompetitive, emotionless jerk" as it is "if you have problems, don't just sit there broken, do something about it". Obviously, some people take this to extremes, but I don't think the underlying meaning is the same from person to person.

And I thought gender equality meant both genders should get the same rights, not both genders should act the same.

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Were you ever hanging out with your guy friends, and were put into a situation where you didn't want to do something? And your friends were like, "Come on, don't be a pussy. Grow some balls." That's really where the problem lies. The male ego is a pretty fragile thing. We feel threatened when our masculinity is put into question, and when its threatened, we respond to kind of declare that it's there.

On one hand, I have no problem with "manliness" and, in fact, think it's a point of pride at times because of the values associated with it: bravery, self-improvement, taking pride in one's self, responsibility, leadership, etc. There are a lot of good things associated with masculinity and while these aren't the only values worth having (and you don't have to be manly to have them), I think they're pretty good things to value. So I don't see any problem with it from that angle.

On the other hand, there's everything stemming from the perception of weakness. This is something that's evolved culturally over probably thousands of years, as men have often assumed leadership roles and a perception of weakness can be fatal to self and society in those roles. So men are conditioned not just to be strong, but to appear strong at all times. While this isn't bad in itself (quite the opposite; it's admirable and useful), it's the shame and ridicule associated with failing at these that's harmful to a lot of people.

I don't really know what the solution is for this issue. I disagree with getting rid of the idea of masculinity altogether. I don't think it's harmful in itself, and moreover, it's a kind of cultural identity. On the other hand, a lot of boys do suffer as a result of an over-emphasis on it, so surely something needs to be done. I'll leave the solvency for others, though. I'm not well-versed enough on social dynamics to suggest a meaningful solution, anyway.

iunno about the rest of you guys, but the only thing that matters to me about being a man is making that special someone weak at her knees :3

In my relationship, I'm the more emotionally expressive and sensitive one. Doesn't make me feel any less of a man though. I don't think "society" has expectations because who can define what "society" is? Are the people who bully you "society"? Are the media outlets which are telling you that people who bully you care about masculinity "society"? What about everybody else? I really think people blow up expectations and all the sudden everybody starts assuming that omg i'm supposed to be macho and douchey and aggressive whatever whatever when in reality, nobody actually gives a ♥♥♥♥. It's funny, it's as if everybody's playing a game that nobody else is playing.

That, or nobody ever told me to be a man. Or not often enough. Or didn't mean it. Or I just said "hell no. shuddup foo". Is it also not masculine to stand up to ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥? Masculinity is just a tool to be manipulated, to be justified as you wish. If you are the master of your masculinity, then you won't let anybody get to you.

EDIT: I know this discussion isn't about feminism, but let me go on a tangent because I think this is pretty relevant. Feminism, with regards to breaking down the need to feel feminine, worked. My girl and I were out with her best friend last night, and she wanted to paint our nails. I was more receptive. Her best friend said "yunno you should be a bit more girly". My girl and I look at each other, shrug, and go "meh". This leads me back to the second paragraph, I guess. I believe strongly that the urge to be "masculine"/"feminine"/whatever is not so much a function of "society"'s expectations but more so a function of the people you hang out with, the sources of your information, whatever. As human beings we can only pay attention to a slice of the whole. We can always take something less seriously.

Absolutely fantastic topic. There's so much dissecting and reassembling to be done! :D

The origins of this expectation of hypermasculinity are numerous. As twocows indicated, human survival was essentially dependent upon it for thousands of years - humanity's formative years, no less. Today, the security and prosperity of the family unit are less dependent on male strength, but thousands of years of experience are not quickly forgotten.

Aerial Ace said:

Were you ever hanging out with your guy friends, and were put into a situation where you didn't want to do something? And your friends were like, "Come on, don't be a pussy. Grow some balls." That's really where the problem lies. The male ego is a pretty fragile thing. We feel threatened when our masculinity is put into question, and when its threatened, we respond to kind of declare that it's there.

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I would add that, male or otherwise, the ego is a fragile thing. Which should not be surprising as it is basically a wall of defense around nothing. I want to add a bit of perspective to your statement here, but for the most part I think you've hit the nail on the head.

Part of growing up is learning the rules that you're supposed to follow and the roles that you are supposed to take. Boys telling each other to man up is perfectly natural, and indeed necessary for further development. The problem you've identified is not so much the taking on of roles, but the learning to transcend them.

When we first learn these roles - boy, girl, student, goof-off, sportsman, nerd, regular guy - we are fused with them. At this stage of the game, we are our roles. And when the next stage comes, if it comes, we must first transcend (or dis-identify with) these roles, and then include these roles as a part of a new and deeper self-identity.



So really, the "problem" is twofold. First, there are going to be many people who live their entire lives primarily as a rule/role self; their center of gravity is never going to shift enough for them to live primarily as an autonomous self. And really, that's ok. From the rule/role self comes a certain stability, which is a unique and valuable contribution made by people and cultures at that stage.

The second part, which can actually be considered a problem, is that the process of growing from one worldview to another is very rarely smooth and unproblematic. People can get stuck at any of the three basic phases of growth - fusion, transcendence, or integration. Each of these types of 'malfunctions', if you will, produces a specific type of symptom. It is the job of psychotherapists to identify the symptoms and fix the malfunction.

Which leads me to an actual point (I love it when that happens!). It seems clear and obvious to me that every single person everywhere should be spending as much time with a psychotherapist as they do with a physician.



However, life-changing as psychotherapy is, it is only the very beginning of a solution. For psychotherapy is essentially mental healing; it is a process of making one's ego healthy and functional. But to truly get away from the need to appear a certain way to others - to defend one's self-image - what must be made healthy is the total bodymind (note that for the bodymind to be made whole, the ego must first be made whole).

When it is seen that the ego arises as an object within your awareness, when it is concretely felt, that the ego is a fleeting and impermanent sensation just like any other, one can begin that same basic growth process of transcendence and integration. First having been fused with the ego, man dis-identifies as ego, and then integrates ego into its proper place within the total organism, or bodymind.

And though one will still have good days and bad days, the chronic need to defend the self-image will fade. The egoic self is composed of memories, and it is precisely because it is built upon ghosts that it defends itself so fiercely. But the centauric self is built upon felt awareness. To be truly at home in the body and in the present is to have a concrete experience of fullness and permanence, and it is thus that the endless search for peace and security is ceased.

pokemonleaguechamp said:

The idea of "be a man", as I understand it, is not so much "be a hypercompetitive, emotionless jerk" as it is "if you have problems, don't just sit there broken, do something about it". Obviously, some people take this to extremes, but I don't think the underlying meaning is the same from person to person.

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Wow, I love that re-interpretation of "Be a man!". It pushes beyond the traditional ideas that men don't cry or ask for help, because sometimes solving your problems will involve crying or asking for help!

Certain stereotypes are just so impractical when you think about it, and I wonder if people just soak that ♥♥♥♥ up so they don't have to think outside the box or do some soul-searching. It's the path of least intellectual resistance.

/end arrogance

Kanzler said:

Certain stereotypes are just so impractical when you think about it, and I wonder if people just soak that ♥♥♥♥ up so they don't have to think outside the box or do some soul-searching. It's the path of least intellectual resistance.

/end arrogance

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Some people can't think outside the box. Some can, but choose not to.

Note: factual basis makes your claim no less arrogant :]

My boyfriend decides this is an appropriate thing to say to me a lot~

Anyway, when people say this (from my own experience) they are usually requesting that you essentially change your personality or actions to appeal to the gender role of males. A lot of guys have this mindset that tells them that other guys have to be masculine, brave, tough, and slightly retaining a douchey attitude.

I think it's all baloney. If I'm sensitive and feminine, that's my delio. Not anyone else's. I do what I do and act how I act for a reason. Putting manliness into question shouldn't really change any of that.

Experiences make the person, not other people.

I think when people say "aww come on be a man" they aren't actually attacking your manhood, just trying to get you to do something stupid haha. And if they are, they're kind of ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥s because you shouldn't expect most people to act that way towards you.

I'm a 40+ year old guy who plays Pokémon games, watches cartoons, and plays with model trains. How "unmanly" is that? But I don't care. I enjoy what I enjoy, and if others feel that I'm acting in an unmanly manner, that's their problem and not mine. Life is short, enjoy it how you can. And if anyone complains, you can always give them a wet "unmanly" raspberry in response.

I think the pressure is more on the younger male, as opposed to someone more grounded in their older life. That said, I'm sure this sort of social standing can also affect older males also. Young people between the ages of 15-24 are plighted quite heavily by suicide. It is the third most common cause of death. This isn't to say that the threat of pressure to "Be a Man" causes these suicides, but certainly the pressure to be placed somewhere in society is very high among younger people.

If a young person has no idea where they fit in, they may look to their fundamentals such as their gender. The male stereotype is to be strong, lacking negative emotion, and ultimately silent when it comes to talking about personal problems. As states in the opening post, less than half of young men with mental problems do anything about it. Segregation from society is commonplace for those who don't tend to conform to their gender "expectancies". This is why young men find it difficult to come out about their sexuality, what gender they feel they are more suited to, to express their "feminine" side, and the list goes on. Society has the habit of putting young boys in a box, and young men don't feel as if they can step out of it and be accepted for their differences, and be allowed to express pent up emotions.

The three most damaging words I believe you can tell your child is to "be a man". Many kids are being brought up on that phrase, and it's unhealthy and uncompromising.

PervertedPikachu said:

"Be cool, and be kind of a dick"

That's quite similar to what some of my gamer friends told me once on advice for appealing to women, I didn't buy into it completely but a lot of the people I would see as "dicks" have had relationships so I don't know... Maybe i'm just the dick part and am not cool enough :P

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Ugh, how do I explain this. Getting women does involve a bit of self-righteousness and often times you do have to take the lead in relationships like that, but don't be a jerk. There's so many men (boys, I should say) who put their girls through mental and physical abuse out of an extreme rooted in their fragile egos, and it's disheartening. If it were me I'd definitely take the dominative role in a relationship with pride, but I'd take care of my girl and show her how things should and shouldn't be done; this is where too many inexperienced men fail. They take it too far. And isn't this how it all started?

As for the fragile male ego, you should her this vinyl bit from George Carlin, called the Male Disease:

Alex said:

Ugh, how do I explain this. Getting women does involve a bit of self-righteousness and often times you do have to take the lead in relationships like that, but don't be a jerk. There's so many men (boys, I should say) who put their girls through mental and physical abuse out of an extreme rooted in their fragile egos, and it's disheartening. If it were me I'd definitely take the dominative role in a relationship with pride, but I'd take care of my girl and show her how things should and shouldn't be done; this is where too many inexperienced men fail. They take it too far. And isn't this how it all started?

As for the fragile male ego, you should her this vinyl bit from George Carlin, called the Male Disease:

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Back in high school, they taught us the difference between passive, assertive, and aggressive. What you want to go for is assertive; you don't want to come off as passive or people won't respect you, and you don't want to come off as aggressive or people will dislike you. It was some darn good advice and I probably should have listened a lot sooner, but even once I did, it's not easy to figure out that balance. You have to be able to speak up for yourself and press your side without pressing it too hard, and it's tough to figure that balance out.

Being assertive rather than passive or aggressive (or passive-aggressive, heh) won't just help you with women, it'll help you with pretty much everything. People respect those who can assert themselves like that; they're the leaders and the doers, and if you're a good leader, others will usually follow naturally. And you also generally get what you want a lot more easily, as well. It's not the only thing that matters, not even close (tact especially is also important), but it helps a lot in a lot of situations.

twocows said:

Back in high school, they taught us the difference between passive, assertive, and aggressive. What you want to go for is assertive; you don't want to come off as passive or people won't respect you, and you don't want to come off as aggressive or people will dislike you. It was some darn good advice and I probably should have listened a lot sooner, but even once I did, it's not easy to figure out that balance. You have to be able to speak up for yourself and press your side without pressing it too hard, and it's tough to figure that balance out.

Being assertive rather than passive or aggressive (or passive-aggressive, heh) won't just help you with women, it'll help you with pretty much everything. People respect those who can assert themselves like that; they're the leaders and the doers, and if you're a good leader, others will usually follow naturally. And you also generally get what you want a lot more easily, as well. It's not the only thing that matters, not even close (tact especially is also important), but it helps a lot in a lot of situations.

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Honestly, I remember learning this stuff last year in college and it is probably one of the best social things I have learned ever. It really applies to anyone, not just men. It's kind of tricky frankly but basically I've learned that if you stand your ground but aren't a dick about it, people will give you more respect.

On the subject of finding someone that you love, well, all I have to say is don't push yourself too hard to find someone immediately and you'll find someone eventually. And it's better to find someone who you really gel with than just someone that you're finding to go and get your libido checked, because a relationship is so many things that you need to be able to deal with it.

Honestly, I view relationships as almost similar to owning a pet in the respect that certain pets require a lot more care than others. You could have someone who easy to be happy with and that's fine, if that's your thing, and then there are other people who need a lot of emotional maintenance. Either way, if you really love that person you will try to meet their own needs, without letting them take over your life (because sometimes someone who is just needy can become abusive).

daigonite said:

Honestly, I remember learning this stuff last year in college and it is probably one of the best social things I have learned ever. It really applies to anyone, not just men. It's kind of tricky frankly but basically I've learned that if you stand your ground but aren't a dick about it, people will give you more respect.

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Yeah, I wasn't trying to imply it's only useful for men. It's useful for most people, though there are some men who I guess are intimidated by assertive women. That's their own problem, though.

On the subject of finding someone that you love, well, all I have to say is don't push yourself too hard to find someone immediately and you'll find someone eventually.

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There are people for whom finding love and holding onto it is a gargantuan effort that often does not bear fruit. If these people wait around for love to find them, death may well find them first. They need to be going out and searching or it's quite possible they'll never find anyone. Realistically speaking, people like that, they don't always have the luxury of waiting to find the "right" person if they don't want to be alone. It's not a happy thought, but it's the truth.

Even for those people for whom this isn't the case, it doesn't hurt to take a chance on someone you're not immediately smitten with and explore things. There's nothing saying you need to marry someone once you've gone on a date with them. Usually, it's better to explore things and know than to look back at what could have been and wonder.

In the end, I think regardless of what your situation, if you're single and want to change that, you should be out there, making an effort, and taking chances. Waiting around might solve the problem, but I think it's less likely to do so.

I think we are damaging young boys' minds when we tell them to "be a man" and things like that. This is the kind of behaviour that breeds violent, aggressive men who beat their wives and have sex with multiple women. It also discourages boys from showing their true potential and making them feel that they have to like sports, politics, war, and guns. This is not at all what we should be teaching boys.

My parents avoided this approach because they knew it was wrong to forbid boys from showing emotions. It worked pretty well - I am allowed to show plenty of emotion around my house. My dad, my grandpa, and pretty much all of my male relatives accept that.

Guys are capable of being sensitive without being weak. I know plenty of guys who are like that. I think it's stronger to show emotions than to bottle them up.

Some people have different talents and gifts. The athletic get praised and stuff because of their abs and such. It's us nerds that find cures and stuff. Just because you don't look as manly or whatever doesn't mean anything. A true man doesn't have sex every night with girls they barely know. A true man doesn't beat his wife or girlfriend and get drunk 24/7. A true man is one who holds open doors, is nice, and treats his women well.

I say "Be a man" and the likes a lot, I don't mean it the way you said it to be. Some people say that to people so they can power through some depressing time of their life without faltering, a variant of Stay Strong. My motto is "Just continue on life. Joy and Sadness are both part of it."

If you're suicidal you should probably run the other way when you come across me. I'm basically the long walk off a short pier in the eyes of some. I think they're wrong, but I concede that I'm not going to tread on eggshells and treat people I'm close with like helpless delicate flowers as a bitter winter draws near. "Man up" can be a line I deal out. I know I've used it in the past, but I've never meant it as in "GO TAKE SOME ROIDS AND ♥♥♥♥ SOME ♥♥♥♥♥ES BRAH"

Why am I like I am? Maybe it's just the way I see the world. I don't feel as if we should be wallowing and being down about things without at very least having some kind of way of dealing with whatever it is in mind. If someone's not comfortable with who they are, I basically ♥♥♥♥♥ at them until they embrace themselves. If someone's having a tough time, I'll often talk things out and hopefully have them in a mind where they can deal with whatever it is. I have a very good friend, and he probably does have whatever the hell he has, but does it help to pin that mental health thing on him? To drill it in, YOU ARE A MENTAL HEALTH PROBLEM? It feels more and more like we're going overboard with the whole mental analysis, personalities are all going to have medical diagnoses and implications at the rate things are going. I won't let someone being in a different mind be something that should mean I need to drastically tailor my manner to them. It's not about masculinity or a lack of empathy that I should expect people to deal with the hands life deals to the best of their ability. It's the not so common "common sense" that we should strive to deal with life's ♥♥♥♥ as well as we can. I'm there for my friends and expect them to keep things together as well as they can; and they're there for me. There's banter, but that's not a matter of masculinity, nor is it a matter of lacking sensitivity. Maybe some people don't draw the lines between banter and genuinely being there for someone well... maybe I don't, at times, but idk, I think it's just as damaging if not worse to fling about mental health diagnoses. A bit of banter here and there can sometimes leave a sting, but channelling people who have certain characteristics into a uniform negative diagnosis is surely worse? Sites like Tumblr can be absolutely toxic for your mentality if you look in the wrong places. Give me a stoic influence any day.