Does Game Freak hate Elite Four members?

BettyNewbie · Feb 9, 2015

As bad as Elite Four members get it in the anime, their treatment in the games isn't a whole lot better.

Even the most underdeveloped Gym Leaders will usually still get some sort of personality or backstory. More recent games will even show them outside of their rooms and interacting with other characters.

Elite Four members, on the other hand, get none of that. To date, only a handful of them have even been seen outside of their rooms, and even fewer have been seen interacting with other characters. (Hell, most don't even have connections with other characters, period. No friends, no family, no nothing.) Most of them have non-existent backstories and personalities, as well.

Rubbing salt in the wounds was, of course, the PWT, which deliberately excluded Elite Four members for the lamest excuse ever. Don't Champions and Gym Leaders serve their Leagues, too? Why do only Elite Four members have to sit on the sidelines?

Why does Game Freak seem to hate these supposedly powerful and important trainers so much? I get that they want the Elite Four to have an air of "mystery," but that shouldn't stop GF from fleshing them out in the postgame or giving them cameos in other games. And, if the Elite Four members really are so busy that they're incapable of getting out, having lives, and having close relationships with other people, then why can't that be used as a plot point?

It's telling that the most developed and popular Elite Four members are usually those who played another role besides "Elite Four Member" in the games, such as Lance, Koga, and Caitlin. Even Malva, to a lesser extent. (Let's face it, most of popularity comes from her being a member of Team Flare.) What a waste.

CloverCamerupt · Feb 9, 2015

I think the XY third version/sequel will expand on Malva a bit

She is probably Flare's new leader or something since Lysandre lasered himself into dust.

BettyNewbie · Feb 9, 2015

CloverCamerupt said:
I think the XY third version/sequel will expand on Malva a bit

She is probably Flare's new leader or something since Lysandre lasered himself into dust.

Oh, I'd love to see her become the new Team Flare leader. It's ridiculous how the games haven't had one female Evil Team leader after almost 20 years.

Pendraflare · Feb 10, 2015

I think Generation V did give them a bit of extra attention. Marshal for one shows up in the post-game of BW before you battle Cheren in Victory Road the first time, and then he re-appears in B2W2 in front of Twist Mountain. Then you have Caitlin and Shauntal hanging out in Cynthia's villa in Undella Town during the spring season (or was it summer, I think), so I would say that if nothing else that generation tried to give them a bit more extra prominence.

TopleyBird · Feb 10, 2015

I have wondered this as well. Why do the strongest trainers of the region amount to so little other than another hurdle?

The only theory I have is that most Elite Four members of people of privilege who did their training in controlled environments. This is supposed to contrast with the protagonist, the scrappy adventurer who had traveled through caves, over mountains, through forests, across oceans etc. to do his/her training.

This could be seen with Lance, the elite four member we know the most about in the games. He brags about how Dragons are the strongest and is utterly shocked when you defeat his Dragons. You really get the feeling he crunched the numbers and read many books in his formative years as his way of getting a feeling for Pokemon. Where as the protagonist goes in with all heart, trust, and love for Pokemon.

BettyNewbie · Feb 10, 2015

TopleyBird said:
This could be seen with Lance, the elite four member we know the most about in the games. He brags about how Dragons are the strongest and is utterly shocked when you defeat his Dragons. You really get the feeling he crunched the numbers and read many books in his formative years as his way of getting a feeling for Pokemon. Where as the protagonist goes in with all heart, trust, and love for Pokemon.

I'm not so sure about that. We know from both Crystal and HGSS that he passed the Dragon User's Challenge, which places a strong emphasis on raising your Pokémon with love and care, views that Lance, himself, also seemed to hold in those same games:

"We have no choice. We have to make all the Electrode faint. That should stop this machine from transmitting that strange signal. It's no fault of the Pokémon, so it makes me feel guilty. <player>, let's split the job."

"The journey to becoming the Pokémon Master is long and difficult. Knowing that, will you keep going? … I see. No, you're right. If you would give up that easily, you would have never chased that dream in the first place. I look forward to seeing you again!"

"I've been waiting for you. <Player>! I knew that you, with your skills, would eventually reach me here. There's no need for words now. We will battle to determine who is the stronger of the two of us. As the most powerful trainer and as the Pokémon League Champion… I, Lance the dragon master, accept your challenge!"

"…It's over. But it's an odd feeling. I'm not angry that I lost. In fact, I feel happy. Happy that I witnessed the rise of a great new Champion!"

"…Whew. You have become truly powerful, <player>. Your Pokémon have responded to your strong and upstanding nature. As a trainer, you will continue to grow strong with your Pokémon."

"It's been a long time since I last came here. This is where we honor the League Champions for all eternity. Their courageous Pokémon are also inducted. Here today, we witnessed the rise of a new League Champion--a trainer who feels compassion for, and trust toward, all Pokémon. A trainer who succeeded through perseverance and determination. The new League Champion who has all the makings of greatness! <Player>, allow me to register you and your partners as Champions!"

He also provoked this reaction from Silver:

"Tell me, who was the guy in the cape who used dragon Pokémon? My Pokémon were no match at all. I don't care that I lost. I can beat him by getting stronger Pokémon. It's what he said that bothers me… He told me that I don't love and trust my Pokémon enough. I'm furious that I lost to a bleeding heart like him."

Of course, this was Lance in the Gen 2 games, after he had been promoted to Champion and received a large dose of character development to go along with it. He was almost an entirely different person as an Elite Four member in Gen 1, to the point of being OOC.

It's telling that it took him being promoted to Champion to get any kind of backstory or characterization. He probably would've remained as one-note as the likes of Bruno or anyone from Hoenn if he had stayed an Elite Four member.

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire · Feb 10, 2015

Let's see we got some story on Lorelei in FRLG. We learn a little about Drake in ORAS. Lance got an expanded role in the sequels but then again he was also champion. Marshall got an expanded story. Caitlin has a decent amount of character development off screen with hints of it given to us...but then again she was also a BFB (those guys though don't get much love either...actually they get less).

CoffeeDrink · Feb 11, 2015

You're forgetting about Bruno! Where does he go? Nowhere! He stays in the same room and only moves to the third spot in the second Generation! And Drasna. I'd love to see more of her and I feel like it was a wasted opportunity not to give each of the Elite Four Members in Kalos their own back-story and interactivity beyond the Battle Maison/Mansion. They felt kind of lacking, especially since one of them is a world class chef. He could have at least been present in one of the restaurants in Kalos as an owner but nope.

BettyNewbie · Feb 11, 2015

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire said:
Let's see we got some story on Lorelei in FRLG.

A story that was only done for the purposes of getting rid of her (and paving way for the Psychic Clown to steal her spot 3 years later). We didn't learn anything about her friends and family, nor her goals and desires, and she hasn't been seen or heard from since then. A happy ending, she did not get.

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire said:
(those guys though don't get much love either...actually they get less).

This is true. They weren't exactly part of the PWT, either, and one group of Frontier Brains may have just been retconned out of the games, altogether (which doesn't make the odds good for the other set when their Gen's remakes eventually come up).

Strange how outside of Champions, the game's most powerful trainers are often the least characterized.

CoffeeDrink said:
You're forgetting about Bruno! Where does he go? Nowhere! He stays in the same room and only moves to the third spot in the second Generation!

Bruno's such a waste. There was never anything interesting about him, not even design-wise, and his team was always so weak and pathetic. He, along with the Psychic Clown, ruined Gen 2's Elite Four, IMO.

(If there's any Elite Four that should be retconned out of existence in the new timeline, it's that one. Give us Sabrina/Koga/Karen/Lorelei in that order, please, and hopefully, with higher levels and better teams.)

CoffeeDrink said:
And Drasna. I'd love to see more of her and I feel like it was a wasted opportunity not to give each of the Elite Four Members in Kalos their own back-story and interactivity beyond the Battle Maison/Mansion. They felt kind of lacking, especially since one of them is a world class chef. He could have at least been present in one of the restaurants in Kalos as an owner but nope.

Well, Malva has the Team Flare thing going on, but otherwise, yeah, the Kalos Elite Four is pretty bland. Hopefully, the last two Gen 6 games (if they're Kalos-based) will fix this.

Of course, Gen 6 also saw the return of the original "faceless" Elite Four, and boy, were they in the original games. (It probably didn't help that they all repeated types that had been used by Indigo Elites in the previous two Gens. Nice originality, GF. :rolleyes2:)

Luckily, the remakes tried to help this by giving them all appearances outside of their rooms... With the exception of one. Who also happened to be the most faceless of the faceless. Who's name, when Googled, will bring up more pictures of an Eeveelution than her (which, despite being of her specialized type, doesn't even appear on any of her teams).

Bellsprout · Feb 11, 2015

BettyNewbie said:
Oh, I'd love to see her become the new Team Flare leader. It's ridiculous how the games haven't had one female Evil Team leader after almost 20 years.

so true I haven't thought of that. It would be really neat to finally have a female evil team leader.

but anyway yeah it's always bothered me that elite four members don't get much done on them and yet I find them to be some of the coolest trainers in the whole Pokemon world. My favorite members have been Karen, Glacia, Caitlin, Malva, and Siebold. I'd say the latest three have had some minor mentions (siebold much less than the other two), but still not enough to be considered an in depth amount.

BettyNewbie · Feb 11, 2015

Ayselipera said:
but anyway yeah it's always bothered me that elite four members don't get much done on them and yet I find them to be some of the coolest trainers in the whole Pokemon world.

I know very well. Some of my favorite trainers in the games, period, are Lance, Lorelei, and Karen. The first one, of course, was lucky and got promoted to Champion, so he got some nice backstory and character development... The other two, not so much.

All Lorelei got was a half-assed write-off at the end of FRLG (RBY didn't even bother to give her that much) and was promptly replaced by a Psychic Clown in the sequels, never to be seen or heard from again. We never learned anything about her friends, her family, or her future goals and aspirations. Instead, what we got has her being sentenced to an eternity of battling worthless Rocket Grunts on a tiny, no-name island, something I highly doubt gave her happiness or joy. I am only praying that new remakes come and fix this.

As for Karen, well... She got a really cool quote. Seriously, GF, why didn't you do more with her in HGSS? With all of the other characters who got fleshed out in those games, why couldn't the Elite Four get the same treatment? Doesn't the games' very first Dark specialist deserve better than that? Where is she from? Who are her friends and family? Is she related to Agatha?

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire · Feb 11, 2015

BettyNewbie said:
A story that was only done for the purposes of getting rid of her (and paving way for the Psychic Clown to steal her spot 3 years later). We didn't learn anything about her friends and family, nor her goals and desires, and she hasn't been seen or heard from since then. A happy ending, she did not get.

This is true. They weren't exactly part of the PWT, either, and one group of Frontier Brains may have just been retconned out of the games, altogether (which doesn't make the odds good for the other set when their Gen's remakes eventually come up).

Strange how outside of Champions, the game's most powerful trainers are often the least characterized.

Bruno's such a waste. There was never anything interesting about him, not even design-wise, and his team was always so weak and pathetic. He, along with the Psychic Clown, ruined Gen 2's Elite Four, IMO.

(If there's any Elite Four that should be retconned out of existence in the new timeline, it's that one. Give us Sabrina/Koga/Karen/Lorelei in that order, please, and hopefully, with higher levels and better teams.)

Well, Malva has the Team Flare thing going on, but otherwise, yeah, the Kalos Elite Four is pretty bland. Hopefully, the last two Gen 6 games (if they're Kalos-based) will fix this.

Of course, Gen 6 also saw the return of the original "faceless" Elite Four, and boy, were they in the original games. (It probably didn't help that they all repeated types that had been used by Indigo Elites in the previous two Gens. Nice originality, GF. :rolleyes2:)

Luckily, the remakes tried to help this by giving them all appearances outside of their rooms... With the exception of one. Who also happened to be the most faceless of the faceless. Who's name, when Googled, will bring up more pictures of an Eeveelution than her (which, despite being of her specialized type, doesn't even appear on any of her teams).

Aren't Kanto's E4 originally the 'Faceless' E4, most of them got more of their stories told outside of Gen I (their sequels and the remakes of the games they originally popped up in). I would like it if Glacia popped up in Sinnoh remake, and Bertha in a Kanto re-remake. Or maybe Agatha in a Sinnoh remake (they kind of look alike...actually we never did learn what region Glacia is from...most guess Sinnoh, so I wonder if she's related to Bertha somehow...granddaughter?).

BettyNewbie · Feb 12, 2015

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire said:
Aren't Kanto's E4 originally the 'Faceless' E4, most of them got more of their stories told outside of Gen I (their sequels and the remakes of the games they originally popped up in).

Technically, it's Gen 1 Indigo Elite Four, not "Kanto Elite Four," as neither Kanto or Johto have their own Elite Fours like the other regions.

I give them more of a pass simply because they were the first, and let's face it, most of the characters weren't fleshed out all that well in RBY. (And, if you remember any differently, it's probably because you're thinking of the first two seasons of the anime, which better characterized all of the Gym Leaders, as well as Lorelei and Bruno... This is one reason why Origins was kind of dull, IMO. It stuck too closely to the vacant characterizations of RBY, which just doesn't work in an anime.)

RSE are another story, as that was when GF started getting "loftier" with the games' storytelling (for better or worse). For Hoenn's Elite Four to be arguably even less characterized and relevant than RBY's is just bad. The fact that none of them even specialized in a type that hadn't been used before only made it worse.

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire said:
I would like it if Glacia popped up in Sinnoh remake, and Bertha in a Kanto re-remake. Or maybe Agatha in a Sinnoh remake (they kind of look alike...actually we never did learn what region Glacia is from...most guess Sinnoh, so I wonder if she's related to Bertha somehow...granddaughter?).[/QUOTE

Seeing as GF didn't even bother to show Glacia outside of her room in Hoenn (when every other Hoenn Elite did), the odds of her appearing outside of her room in Sinnoh are very slim. Pretty unfortunate. :sideways:

I definitely want to see some Agatha and Bertha interaction in Gen 1 remakes, preferably in the form of a double battle. I just know they have to be sisters. I also want to see Karen established as Agatha's granddaughter, for that matter... She could use some fleshing out, too.

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire · Feb 12, 2015

BettyNewbie said:
Technically, it's Gen 1 Indigo Elite Four, not "Kanto Elite Four," as neither Kanto or Johto have their own Elite Fours like the other regions.

I give them more of a pass simply because they were the first, and let's face it, most of the characters weren't fleshed out all that well in RBY. (And, if you remember any differently, it's probably because you're thinking of the first two seasons of the anime, which better characterized all of the Gym Leaders, as well as Lorelei and Bruno... This is one reason why Origins was kind of dull, IMO. It stuck too closely to the vacant characterizations of RBY, which just doesn't work in an anime.)

RSE are another story, as that was when GF started getting "loftier" with the games' storytelling (for better or worse). For Hoenn's Elite Four to be arguably even less characterized and relevant than RBY's is just bad. The fact that none of them even specialized in a type that hadn't been used before only made it worse.

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire said:

I would like it if Glacia popped up in Sinnoh remake, and Bertha in a Kanto re-remake. Or maybe Agatha in a Sinnoh remake (they kind of look alike...actually we never did learn what region Glacia is from...most guess Sinnoh, so I wonder if she's related to Bertha somehow...granddaughter?).[/QUOTE

Seeing as GF didn't even bother to show Glacia outside of her room in Hoenn (when every other Hoenn Elite did), the odds of her appearing outside of her room in Sinnoh are very slim. Pretty unfortunate. :sideways:

I definitely want to see some Agatha and Bertha interaction in Gen 1 remakes, preferably in the form of a double battle. I just know they have to be sisters. I also want to see Karen established as Agatha's granddaughter, for that matter... She could use some fleshing out, too.

Click to expand...

It's possible that they saved Glacia's appearance for a place she'll fit. Hoenn doesn't fit her as well as the other three.
Also how about Johto's E4? Bruno was still dull (I like Glacia better) and the happy psychic clown was worse than Sindey in RSE...at least we knew some stuff about Sindey from the Pokenav.

BettyNewbie · Feb 12, 2015

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire said:
It's possible that they saved Glacia's appearance for a place she'll fit. Hoenn doesn't fit her as well as the other three.

But, when has an Elite Four member ever appeared in a game that wasn't their introductory one? Without it being a sequel or without being promoted to Champion, first?

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire said:
the happy psychic clown was worse than Sindey in RSE...at least we knew some stuff about Sindey from the Pokenav.

The Psychic Clown was worse than everyone. His team sucked, his design sucked, and there was nothing at all special or interesting about him except that he was taking up space that belonged to one of the best Elite Four members. I'd happily watch Sidney kick his ass over and over again. >:) If there's any Elite Four member who should be retconned out of existence, it's him.

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire · Feb 12, 2015

BettyNewbie said:
But, when has an Elite Four member ever appeared in a game that wasn't their introductory one? Without it being a sequel or without being promoted to Champion, first?

The Psychic Clown was worse than everyone. His team sucked, his design sucked, and there was nothing at all special or interesting about him except that he was taking up space that belonged to one of the best Elite Four members. I'd happily watch Sidney kick his ass over and over again. >:) If there's any Elite Four member who should be retconned out of existence, it's him.

It'll be a reverse Caitlin minus the BFB position (Caitlin is the only E4 member to appear in a game that wasn't the one she was E4 in).

Poor guy...though I must say even his Pokemon special depiction was bad...Now what I'll like to know is what happened to Agatha?
(btw Sinnoh remakes are the best place to have several of the E4 gather since Agatha is likely Bertha's twin sister, Glacia might be from Sinnoh, and Drasna's family is from Sinnoh, well at least a female E4 gathering...throw in Karen and you'll have one from I,II,III,IV (of course), V (Caitlin), and VI). Sinnoh remakes with E4 tournament anyone? (actually since Jasmine pops up too...the PWT would fit well in a Sinnoh remake, especially since Cynthia enjoys the thing).

BettyNewbie · Feb 12, 2015

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire said:
(Caitlin is the only E4 member to appear in a game that wasn't the one she was E4 in).

Koga says hi. Technically also Lance, if reversed order counts.

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire said:
Poor guy...though I must say even his Pokemon special depiction was bad...

And, he didn't even appear on the anime... Perfect retribution for what he did to Lorelei in the games, tee-hee! (Just too bad he had to drag Karen down along with him.)

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire said:
Now what I'll like to know is what happened to Agatha?

A lot of people say that she died between Gens 1 and 2, although it's never been proven. A Gen 1 remake would be the perfect place to clear that up.

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire · Feb 12, 2015

BettyNewbie said:
Koga says hi. Technically also Lance, if reversed order counts.

And, he didn't even appear on the anime... Perfect retribution for what he did to Lorelei in the games, tee-hee! (Just too bad he had to drag Karen down along with him.)

A lot of people say that she died between Gens 1 and 2, although it's never been proven. A Gen 1 remake would be the perfect place to clear that up.

Sorry, I meant to say of the E4 who aren't later seen in (direct) sequels.

Yeah...well Karen was more likable (slightly) even then (in the manga) xD.

While they're at it they should have Blue talk to Lance like how Steven did with Wallace about giving up the temporary position.

BettyNewbie · Feb 12, 2015

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire said:
While they're at it they should have Blue talk to Lance like how Steven did with Wallace about giving up the temporary position.

I would've liked to have learned more about how Lance became Champion in the first place. That was a pretty big missed opportunity in both FRLG and HGSS.

Does Game Freak hate Elite Four members?

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