Do note that even with that distinction, chosing not to engage in sexual intercourse with every fertile member of the opposite gender that you find would still be denying potential life as that is preventing the conditions in which a human being can be formed, and - indeed - masturbating all the time leaves less sperm to get the job done, and thus lessens your chances of reproducing (Again, where do you draw the line for what is 'wasted potential'?). Also, you can't truly know what's going on with the unseparated baby so don't say 'it can feel pain' like it's a proven fact. Sure, it's very likely that this is the case, but technically you can't prove it anymore than that the sun will rise tommorrow. Don't confuse opinion with fact.
Okay, forgetting the whole "potential" thing since that's too tricky of a word, you're not
killing a life though is my point. The sperm and eggs are just that until they've bonded, neither can advance on their own and I wouldn't consider that human life, just the basic ingredients needed for it. Even if it can't be proven that a fetus can or cannot feel pain, I'm always going to assume that it can, if you choose not too, fine by me, but once something is at that point, I'm going to think they've developed at least the most simple of pain receptors.
I was simply pointing out that just because something 'looks' human we shouldn'tmake the mistake of attributing human characteristics to it based solely on appearance, the condition you add is also so and so. Just because it can become a human body it doesn't mean that we should attribute human rights to it before it becomes one. Egg cells can become human bodies too, but obviously periods aren't illegal.
That's fine and dandy, but I'm not judging anything based on appearance. I'm talking about when something is already at the fetus level, which is where I see a lot of abortions preformed. When I said "a fetus has the potential to become a full life" I don't mean that I don't consider that life, but that it has the potential to become a healthy adult one day.
First off, we don't kill animals out of pure necessity; it has been proven that a human being can survive without touching meat, we are killing animals for convenience (because it's a plentiful and self-replenishing resource) and because a more varied diet makes us healthier (i.e. improves the quality of our lives, i.e. luxury; not necessity). Second, abortions aren't made 'for sport' or 'just for the hell of it', the sex that preceeds it might have, but the abortion is a separate matter.
'Kay, first off, wanna know what happens to a baby when it's put on a strict vegan diet?
This. A vegetarian diet? That depends because as I know it, there are many types, some that make exception and drink milk and other things, some that don't. Meat is generally considered the easiest way to obtain protein. So yeah, I was wrong, a human can survive without meat, but I'd consider that quality of life to be pretty horrible, especially when imposed on a child, you have to greatly increase their intake of foods such wheat, nuts, beans, and tofu to get adequate amounts of protein, iron, calcium and such -- which is most likely why that child died, people don't do the leg work to find out what works and what doesn't. Of course this is all considering that a person generally tries to eat what's healthy and not go too crazy on junk food, but most people don't, at least not in the US. So, yes, a person can survive without meat, but most people wouldn't do the proper leg work to find out what they need to survive and realistically, it's just not a smart thing for children, nine times out of ten, you're going to end up overfeeding them just so they can get the proper nutritional value that a child needs.
But to all the people say stuff like "meat is murder", I just reply, animals do it, why can't we? It's not like I condone animal cruelty, but to the average person, there just isn't enough time to eat all you need to live even a semi-healthy life.
I just can't imagine anyone treating painful surgery and/or depressing medication as a hobby. Seriously, just because someone decides on abortion it doesn't mean that that decision was made lightly. xP
Sadly, a number of times this is what I've seen be the case. Sometimes it's as simple as teen not wanting their parents to find out that they did the nasty.
First scenario: you know, she'll end up deciding about another person's life either way. If the careless person gives birth to the baby then she'll either have to take care of him/her herself or decide who gets to do it, in either case she's making a decision that will affect the rest of the baby's life and - legally speaking - she is the only one who's allowed to do it, yet - as you pointed out - she's already demonstrated her lack of judgement in the first place. So basically, the mother is highly likely to make a bad choice for the baby-to-be either way. Who's to say that she isn't allowed to make the potentially bad decision that will have the least negative impact on the other people (mother, family etc.)?
This varies by situation, if the mother is someone who generally lives outside the law, drugs, drinking under age, other things, then what is most likely to happen is that the parent will lose custody of the child if whoever decides that the mother isn't fit to be a parent. Now if it's just someone who did something stupid and had sex, generally lives a clean life, you can assume that she'll have someone to help her make the right choice, be it giving up the baby or not. I don't know too many parents that would just disown their child or not do even the slightest thing to help.
True, the fetus can't defend its rights (assuming that we give it any, which has yet to be decided) but how far does that excuse go to justify harming the lives of others? Does already having been born somehow diminish your rights as a human being? This is a part of the anti-abortion sentiment that I've never understood. So, um...clarify that, please?
This is just what I believe personally: Once a person is born, matures, they have the ability to make decisions of their own that will affect their life. A fetus can't do that. You're not losing rights upon being born, far from it, I think all young people that can't make proper decisions for themselves, that don't know what right and wrong is should have that extra protection. Of course "right and wrong", admittedly, is a subjective concept, but I'm not talking about the tiniest intricacies, but just general things that we know we shouldn't do if we don't absolutely have to.
Second case: that guilt might not be there were it not for the people screaming 'Abortion is murder!' on the streets, you know. <_< Rape victims are most likely already in a vulnerable emotional state, which is why I find it particularly distasteful that they are subjected to this kind of distressing fearmongering and guilt triping. Also, note that it is still open whether the fetus can be considered to have a life, so we might not be dealing with a decision of whether to harm a life or not but whether to give one or not, those are quite different situations.
Yeah, I never have and never will agree with the people that get into the faces of others and push their opinions like that, especially on someone like a rape victim. I don't condone abortion myself, but I'm just stating my opinion and would never do anything like the extremists tend to do. Anywho, the guilt, I still think it would be there, of course not being a woman, I'll never know, but again, going on personal experiences with people, most women generally do feel guilty or ashamed afterwards, given time to heal, of course it suicides, but I don't think it's something anyone can ever really clear their mind of unless they have absolutely no problem with abortion and don't view it as taking a life.
I'd also like to introduce a couple of aspects which you excluded here. First, fetuses might get aborted by natural means too, is a woman who takes a too hard hit to the stomach or takes up the wrong diet (resulting in miscarriage) a murderer too? From the perspective of the fetus that's no different from an abortion performed by a doctor, yet the mother might not have made a conscious decision.
If harm comes to the mother by something that she has no control of, they no, it doesn't make her a murderer. If she's misinformed about what diet she should take (which with all the free clinics there are today, shouldn't happen) or does something personally that harms the fetus/life/whateveryouwanancallit without the intent to do so in the first place, it doesn't make her a murderer, not in my eyes, if that happened with a child already born, I think most people would consider it manslaughter most of the time, and at the very worst, extreme negligence.
Second, what about a pregnancy that occurs in spite of preventatives being used on both sides? Would you still say that the woman has an obligation to give birth to the child even though she did all she could to avoid the situation?
Yes, I believe the woman has an obligation to give birth. Why? Simply put, I believe in abstinence and that no one should have sex unless they're prepared for the chance that something will go wrong and an unplanned pregnancy will sprout up. You can have all the protection the world has to offer, but nothing is guaranteed in life.
Agreed, "We need to kill people to correct the food/space problem" doesn't sound like an ethically justifiable position. However, I would like to point out that since there already are more than enough of us here, I really don't see a need to force the people who really don't have the potential or will to do it to go through with an unpleasant birthgiving that could potentially harm their health for the rest of their lives. How to say...I'm looking at it not as deciding wheter to end lives really early but whether to bring them into the world in the first place. Also, note that where there is demand there will be supply, that's basic economic reasoning that has proven to hold true in practice, so banning abortion will not stop people from having abortions, it will just shift the suppliers from respectable doctors to black market quacks and suspect pills that will not only end the baby's life but most likely the mother's as well. I don't know about you, but I'd rather see the work done by people who know their medicine and aren't liable to steal the patient's kidney while they're at it. :\
If giving birth to a child will have any adverse affect on the mother's health, that is the one and only time that I think an abortion should be practiced. Even in planned pregnancies, things can go wrong, the mother may not be healthy enough to carry the baby full term and give birth, she may suddenly become extremely ill. Again, my basic thinking is, if you have sex, be prepared for everything that can come your way. I don't condone abortion, obviously, but I wouldn't push my views on other people and make it illegal, obviously because as you put it, as long as people want to have them, there will be those who provide them, and if they have to do them, I'd rather a trained professional do it and minimize the chances that another life will be lost. I believe in the right to choose, but I just wish people would make educated choices and know the risks.
