Abortion?

[Razer302]

I think abortion should only be used if there is going to be a chance of the mother dieing during the birth or if they got pregnant due to rape. Abortion shouldn't be used just because the person doesn't want the child yet. They knew that there was a risk of them getting pregnant so they shuold own up to the fact tha it happened and not just kill te child.

 

[Timbjerr]

That's why we have abstinence. ;) Yes, people make mistakes, but I don't believe that people should use abortion as a birth control. If you aren't willing to accept the small tiny percent of risk, that you may end up with a child, you aren't ready to do it at all. No one "accidentally" has sex. You have to accept responsibility for your actions, and don't take unnecessary risk you aren't prepared for.

Thanks a lot. You clarified the point that I was too tired to make in my last post. XD

Abortion as a means of birth control is simply wrong. Rape and endangerment to the mother's or child's healths are the only really acceptible terms for abortion.

 

[Legacy]

I do strongly disagree with abortion. If I were to accidentally get someone pregnant, I'd fight tooth and nail to make sure that baby is born. I'd even be prepared to raise the child single handedly if need be.

But whilst I'm against it personally, I know that not everyone will share my beliefs, so I think it's a woman's right to have an abortion if she sees fit. Not everyone is ready or willing to be a parent. And pregnancies should've been protected against, but the contraceptives fail. As someone mentioned earlier, contraceptives aren't 100% effective. You could use a condom -and- a birth control pill and there is still a tiny chance of a pregnancy. So if someone is having safe sex to avoid pregnancy, but ends up pregnant anyway, shouldn't she be able to abort it?

And someone brought up an excellent point earlier too. If a guy and a girl really are naive enough to think they can get away with having unprotected (risking pregnancy as well as STDs) then they clearly aren't mentally mature or strong enough to cope with parenthood.

Can you imagine being born into that kind of situation if abortions were illegal? Neither parent wanted you, only reason you're alive is because your own mom couldn't "kill" you before you were born and there's a good chance that your father still wants nothing to do with you.

There are two many differing circumstances in the world to just outright ban abortions because you aren't only dealing with a baby's life, but also the mother and father, and even their families. So while aborting one pregnancy will end one life before it begins, not aborting one could completely ruin the lives of many people, including the baby. Is it worth destroying all those lives on the back of a stupid mistake or failed contraceptive?

 

[Chikara]

I don't think abortion should be legal. If you have sex, and you get pregnant, that's your fault. Now I completely understand that sex is a 'hobby' for some people, but if you get pregnant, you should be expecting it. Just go with the most expensive condoms, and you should be good!

Anyway, back to abortion. I consider fetuses people in training, so I don't agree with killing it while it's still a cadet. That's unfair and you forfeit that baby's chance at life because you screwed up and didn't want to handle it.

EDIT: Actually after I left, I realized that there is a way that it should be legal. Rape. That is NOT the girl's fault, and so that should be the only reason abortion should be legal.

 

[Cross]

Look, this is A-M-E-R-I-C-A, its the worlds best free country, if you don't like all that implies to living in a free country then get out, no ones making you stay.

I hate it when people get all defensive about this subject. Women should be able to choose what they want to do with there body. Good or bad. If your a women and you want an abortion, go for it.

And did you now that embreos that will become humans are actually not human at all, they are just embreos. Don't believe me, ask any scientist. They are just a stage where nature takes its course.

And do any of you people now the benefits from abortions? We could make the human race immune to so many things, get rid of cancer, stop aids, but all this controversy is getting in the way of all that is necessary for us to move along.

Listen to this:

Every year the average life span for humans increases becuase of healthier diets, food, and supplements, and many other factors. But With people living longer, that means less people die. And every day, humans are born into this world. Do you realize the consiquences of this? If we continue on this track, Earth will become over crouded, inhabitable. But, with abortions, the probability of that happening drops significantly. But it still iss a possibility. And yes, space exploration is a way of getting arounf this dilema, but that still is in testing, and humans arent ready for it ither.

So, in my opinion, abortions are a way of keeping Earth as beautiful as it is know, and making sure that there less homeless children in the world, and most importantly, surviving. This, what many people find to be so cruel and inhumane, is graduly becoming a survival need.

Think about it

You let me get this straight. We're killing other living organisms for our survivial?


"they are just embreos"? So, let me get this straight. It has the form of a human body, it looks like a human body, it becomes a human body, it IS a human body, but it's "just embreos"?

One more thing. What if this post weren't here right now because you were a shriveled up pile of skin in an abortion office? Would you like that, pal?

 

[Alter Ego]

Well, following the 'potential life' argument...has it occured to you how many 'potential people' are 'murdered' on a daily basis by teenagers (and adults) engaging in 'exploring' their own bodies? The amount of wasted sperm cells (potential fetuses and thus potential people) far exceeds the amount of abortions made, but I have yet to see people walking around with plaques reading 'Masturbation is murder'. In fact, drawing the potential thing to its extreme, every time you choose not to have sexual intercourse you are denying the potential fetus its right to come into existence, and thus - by the same logic - we're all murderers, so where do you draw the line? My personal opinion is that you can't murder something that hasn't been born yet (That's a contradiction in terms) and in my opinion birth occurs when the child-to-be is separated from the mother's body and changes from fetus to baby. You are quite free to disagree with me on this, but I choose this distinction because it's a clear and definite line that doesn't turn the countless people jacking off or choosing not to seek hired company at the moment into mass-murderers.

As for the actual issue...I'm for abortion. On account of my gender, I have not - and will never be able to - truly understand what being pregnant and giving birth feel like, and as such I don't see myself in any position to tell a woman that she has to do it. I also strongly disagree with some of the tactics employed by anti-abortionists (Particularly harassing women on the way to the abortion clinic and committing violence to and threatening the doctors performing the abortions.) as well as the rather short-sighted agendas I've seen them promote. Sure, they're all for getting the birthgiving done, but how many really give a rat's arse about what happens to that precious little baby after it has been born? Life saved, good job, never mind the fact that this child's family may disown him/her (and possibly his/her immidiate relatives as well) completely and the child may end up hated and mistreated for the - probably short - extent of his/her miserable life. I also find it disturbing how the majority of anti-abortion material there focuses on how awful abortion is rather than on the joys of being a parent, how to raise a child etc. I'm probably going to get some really snappy retorts for this post, but to me that sounds like seriously messed up priorities. xP

 

[Chikara]

Look, this is A-M-E-R-I-C-A, its the worlds best free country, if you don't like all that implies to living in a free country then get out, no ones making you stay.

I hate it when people get all defensive about this subject. Women should be able to choose what they want to do with there body. Good or bad. If your a women and you want an abortion, go for it.

And did you now that embreos that will become humans are actually not human at all, they are just embreos. Don't believe me, ask any scientist. They are just a stage where nature takes its course.

And do any of you people now the benefits from abortions? We could make the human race immune to so many things, get rid of cancer, stop aids, but all this controversy is getting in the way of all that is necessary for us to move along.

Listen to this:

Every year the average life span for humans increases becuase of healthier diets, food, and supplements, and many other factors. But With people living longer, that means less people die. And every day, humans are born into this world. Do you realize the consiquences of this? If we continue on this track, Earth will become over crouded, inhabitable. But, with abortions, the probability of that happening drops significantly. But it still iss a possibility. And yes, space exploration is a way of getting arounf this dilema, but that still is in testing, and humans arent ready for it ither.

So, in my opinion, abortions are a way of keeping Earth as beautiful as it is know, and making sure that there less homeless children in the world, and most importantly, surviving. This, what many people find to be so cruel and inhumane, is graduly becoming a survival need.

Think about it

They way you put that, you sound like you don't even understand what abortion IS. Besides the point, your amount of typos and that wall of text is REALLY hard to pay attention to while reading.

Anyway, Even if it is an embryo, it's still LIVING. Why should us women have the opportunity to KILL something because we don't want it? Seriously, the way you put that it sounds like your saying "Kicking puppies is fun!"

Who cares if this is America? ABORTION IS EVERYWHERE, BUDDY. Just because Abortion is here, and you live HERE and you obviously aren't aware that there are other scientifically adapted nations out there, doesn't mean that being an American makes it right.

Rethink that whole post...

 

[Alter Ego]

You let me get this straight. We're killing other living organisms for our survivial?


"they are just embreos"? So, let me get this straight. It has the form of a human body, it looks like a human body, it becomes a human body, it IS a human body, but it's "just embreos"?

One more thing. What if this post weren't here right now because you were a shriveled up pile of skin in an abortion office? Would you like that, pal?

Sorry, but...I just noticed this and I can't help but point out the glaring wrongs here. However, this does not mean that I agree with everything Captain Arcane says, so please don't think that.

One, if he had never been born then I doubt he would feel a thing. Also, I'm pretty sure that the abortion people don't keep pieces of aborted fetuses around as homey decorations. xP

Two, just because it looks like and is shaped like a human body it doesn't mean that it's a sentient being capable of feeling pain or posessing emotions. By that logic, a child breaking a human-shaped doll is committing assault. This all comes down to whether or not fetuses can be considered to think and feel, something which - unfortunately - we don't have an answer to at the moment.

Three, wake up and smell the daisies. We kill living beings for our own comfort all the time. Unless you're a full vegan, then I have to ask: "what do you think you've been eating this past week?". Animals are living organisms just like humans are, so every time you swat a fly you are - by this logic - committing murder. You can argue that killing someone of your own species or something with a 'soul' is a different matter, but this is a question of personal conviction (which varies between people) so there's no universal truth, only a common agreement at best. :\

 

[Cross]

Sorry, but...I just noticed this and I can't help but point out the glaring wrongs here. However, this does not mean that I agree with everything Captain Arcane says, so please don't think that.

One, if he had never been born then I doubt he would feel a thing. Also, I'm pretty sure that the abortion people don't keep pieces of aborted fetuses around as homey decorations. xP

Two, just because it looks like and is shaped like a human body it doesn't mean that it's a sentient being capable of feeling pain or posessing emotions. By that logic, a child breaking a human-shaped doll is committing assault. This all comes down to whether or not fetuses can be considered to think and feel, something which - unfortunately - we don't have an answer to at the moment.

Three, wake up and smell the daisies. We kill living beings for our own comfort all the time. Unless you're a full vegan, then I have to ask: "what do you think you've been eating this past week?". Animals are living organisms just like humans are, so every time you swat a fly you are - by this logic - committing murder. You can argue that killing someone of your own species or something with a 'soul' is a different matter, but this is a question of morals and ethics (which vary between people) so there's no universal truth, only a common agreement at best. :\

Well, I did understand my wrongs in that post, but it doesn't sound right that we "kill" a human to be just for comfort. I don't have a problem with rape abortion, but I do have a problem with Space on Earth abortion. It's not right that we kill another of our kind for comfort... unless it's war, and we're not having war with the babies, now are we?

 

[Captain Arcane]

They way you put that, you sound like you don't even understand what abortion IS. Besides the point, your amount of typos and that wall of text is REALLY hard to pay attention to while reading.

Anyway, Even if it is an embryo, it's still LIVING. Why should us women have the opportunity to KILL something because we don't want it? Seriously, the way you put that it sounds like your saying "Kicking puppies is fun!"

Who cares if this is America? ABORTION IS EVERYWHERE, BUDDY. Just because Abortion is here, and you live HERE and you obviously aren't aware that there are other scientifically adapted nations out there, doesn't mean that being an American makes it right.

Rethink that whole post...

Woah, woah, woah

First off, that "kikking puppies is fun" annalogy was the worst annalogy that I have ever heard, comparing my opinion of abortions to kikking puppies!!!? (O)_(o)

Second, you speak as if you speak for every woman on the face of the earth, which I highly doubt you do. Don't go flaming on me becuase you think I'm wrong, you should be able to support your opinion with facts, examples, and controdicting other people's facts or opinions. Don't just barge in here yelling like a mad woman.

Well, I don't know about you, but I live in America, so my opinion was directed to my country. And don't tell me that I should have mentioned that my opinion was directed towards America, cause you didn't mention what country yours was directed to, nor did anyone else in this thread.

For crying out loud, I did not say anything at all about other countries not being scientificaly adapted. There are tons of other countries that are just as good as others and are highly scientificaly adapted. And what I said was America is one of the best F-R-E-E C-O-U-N-T-R-I-E-S. Again you made me look bad, and you act as if I said that America is all mighty and powerfull. Who ever said anything about whatever America does is right, this is not a game of Follow The Leader, so stop making me look bad.

And to me, it sounds like you cannot think of any situation that would involve abortion.

Anyway, Even if it is an embryo, it's still LIVING. Why should us women have the opportunity to KILL something because we don't want it?

The fact is, is that its an opportunity, not an order, no body is making you have an abortion.
And as time moves on, many situations that would involve abortions will no longer need to have them, but more situations would arrise that would need abortions.

Yes, the embryo is still very alive, but its in a stage where the mind has not started recording history. Unless you remember floating around in your mother's womd, then I would be wrong, but I'm not. Yes, it is killing, but many times it is to save more than what was lost.

Mabye you, should think before you talk.

 

[Chikara]

WOW you're so mad! Your taking everything to the next level. Well... Here we go then. You want a battle of wits, you got it.

Woah, woah, woah

Don't say that as if I was freaking out. I wasn't. I was telling you how I felt about your post. Calm down o.o

Well, I don't know about you, but I live in America, so my opinion was directed to my country. And don't tell me that I should have mentioned that my opinion was directed towards America, cause you didn't mention what country yours was directed to, nor did anyone else in this thread.

I do live in America. I try to think of the WORLD and not just my country when I'm debating on this kind of thing.

F-R-E-E C-O-U-N-T-R-I-E-S

Don't do that. Your basically implying that you have to spell it out so I can understand what your talking about. And to be perfectly clear, that just makes you seem dumber.

Mabye you, should think before you talk.

If that applies to me, it applies to you double. I have a feeling that you didn't even read my post throughly enough to even understand it.

Seriously now. You're getting worked up over nothing. Your not a girl, so you don't have to worry about it. Why are you getting so defensive against me when I was just telling you that I didn't agree with anything you said.

 

[Captain Arcane]

WOW you're so mad! Your taking everything to the next level. Well... Here we go then. You want a battle of wits, you got it.

Don't say that as if I was freaking out. I wasn't. I was telling you how I felt about your post. Calm down o.o
I do live in America. I try to think of the WORLD and not just my country when I'm debating on this kind of thing.

Don't do that. Your basically implying that you have to spell it out so I can understand what your talking about. And to be perfectly clear, that just makes you seem dumber.

If that applies to me, it applies to you double. I have a feeling that you didn't even read my post throughly enough to even understand it.

Seriously now. You're getting worked up over nothing. Your not a girl, so you don't have to worry about it. Why are you getting so defensive against me when I was just telling you that I didn't agree with anything you said.

Actually I read your post over 5 times, understood it, and replied to it. I was mad becuase you mad me seem like a complete imcompotant person, who thinks America is the best, and many other things. But threw out the rest of the post, I wasn't trying to be mean, I was just supporting my opinion, and debating. Also the F-R-E-E- C-O-U-N-T-R-Y thing, I apologize for. But you have to understand that I was really offended by that by what you said. And you did more than not agree with my opinion, you affended me, and your only offending a person if the person thinks they are being affended.

 

[Lucy Lu]

I am sorry to say, but I am against abortion. If she didn't want the child then give him/her for adoption. Or try to raise the baby on your own.

Even if she did get raped and got pregnant. I still say give the baby away for adoption. Killing a life...it just not right.

 

[Ullion]

@ people who say that under any circumstance, abortion is NOT allowed because it is the women's fault for getting pregnant in the first place. So you're saying if a 12 year odl girl was left home-alone for the afternoon and some 20 year old guys barge in (locked house or not) and rape her... you're saying that it is HER fault for getting raped. If you still think that way, then y'all got some serious problems.

Also... the "baby" is in the women's body. Therefor, she at that moment owns it. Technically, that life is still a part of her life, so she has the right to kill it off or not. I don't see how you people can disagree.

And about what Captain Arcane said about Earth's carrying capacity. I agree... but before we go into space... we should try and make other parts of earth more livable on. And take away from cities and added to rural areas. We are a crowded planet.

And also, no one shuld be throwing around crap like "but we're killing off life!", well gee, that happens millions of times every single day.

Then there is the arguement of "killing off potential life". I was gunna say that masterbating would then become illegal because of that, but Alter Ego beat me to it. D: However, that would also mean that periods are illegal too, try stopping that? Everytime a girl has her period, she loses an egg, ne? Exactly... killing off another potential life, k? :3

Plus... we need to kill off people... this place is too over crowded, there are too high of unemployment rates, not enough food for everyone etc etc etc. WE NEED LESS PEOPLE. Abortions help with this.

Overall, my opinion doesn't matter, the only opinion that should count if of one person; the one giving birth. the end.

edit: By the way, kicking puppies can be fun. xP

editx2: Also, I forgot to mention... but Captain Arcane, America is NOT a country. All of you people need to get that through your heads, America is the whole western world, North and South AMERICA. x_x

 

[Captain Arcane]

Thank the Lord, a person in here that thinks about future consiquences besides me , and a few other people. (Chikara one of them)

Well, we shouldn't to just go and kill people. Earth has many unexplored places left, and we could even consider under sea expansion! But like I said before, humans are not quite ready for space, and under sea expansion, but most scientists and scholars belive that people will be taking trips to the moon by 2020!! Whooohooo, I'm gonna go catch me a moony man! ^_^ LoL

There are many possiblities.

 

[Ryoutarou]

I am sorry to say, but I am against abortion. If she didn't want the child then give him/her for adoption. Or try to raise the baby on your own.

Even if she did get raped and got pregnant. I still say give the baby away for adoption. Killing a life...it just not right.

I pretty much agree with this, unless the birth of the baby will have an adverse effect on the mother, then that is really the only time I would agree to an abortion.

Now I do understand that there are situations such as rape, but I still don't agree with it then, the child could just as easily be put up for adoption and the mother can receive counseling and support from a myriad of people that want to help her.

Well, following the 'potential life' argument...has it occured to you how many 'potential people' are 'murdered' on a daily basis by teenagers (and adults) engaging in 'exploring' their own bodies? The amount of wasted sperm cells (potential fetuses and thus potential people) far exceeds the amount of abortions made, but I have yet to see people walking around with plaques reading 'Masturbation is murder'. In fact, drawing the potential thing to its extreme, every time you choose not to have sexual intercourse you are denying the potential fetus its right to come into existence, and thus - by the same logic - we're all murderers, so where do you draw the line? My personal opinion is that you can't murder something that hasn't been born yet (That's a contradiction in terms) and in my opinion birth occurs when the child-to-be is separated from the mother's body and changes from fetus to baby. You are quite free to disagree with me on this, but I choose this distinction because it's a clear and definite line that doesn't turn the countless people jacking off or choosing not to seek hired company at the moment into mass-murderers.

That doesn't exactly work, you need both sperm and an egg to create human life, masturbation and things like periods don't kill off something that has the full potential to become a human. On its own, an egg or sperm will never come to form a body or become truly sentient, and I doubt they can feel much of anything in the way of pain. True, a person is not completely born until they are removed from their mother, but they can still feel pain and they are very much so capable of death, so in my eyes, yes, it is a murder.

As for the actual issue...I'm for abortion. On account of my gender, I have not - and will never be able to - truly understand what being pregnant and giving birth feel like, and as such I don't see myself in any position to tell a woman that she has to do it. I also strongly disagree with some of the tactics employed by anti-abortionists (Particularly harassing women on the way to the abortion clinic and committing violence to and threatening the doctors performing the abortions.) as well as the rather short-sighted agendas I've seen them promote. Sure, they're all for getting the birthgiving done, but how many really give a rat's arse about what happens to that precious little baby after it has been born? Life saved, good job, never mind the fact that this child's family may disown him/her (and possibly his/her immidiate relatives as well) completely and the child may end up hated and mistreated for the - probably short - extent of his/her miserable life. I also find it disturbing how the majority of anti-abortion material there focuses on how awful abortion is rather than on the joys of being a parent, how to raise a child etc. I'm probably going to get some really snappy retorts for this post, but to me that sounds like seriously messed up priorities. xP

Okay, I agree that a lot of the time, anti-abortion groups are far too pushy, but I have seen many church groups and such that will try to keep up with a person after the birth of an unplanned child, and I personally know someone who went through an unplanned pregnancy and got a lot of support after the birth of her child. So, a good majority of the people that are against abortion will help out the person if they decide to give birth.

Two, just because it looks like and is shaped like a human body it doesn't mean that it's a sentient being capable of feeling pain or posessing emotions. By that logic, a child breaking a human-shaped doll is committing assault. This all comes down to whether or not fetuses can be considered to think and feel, something which - unfortunately - we don't have an answer to at the moment.

In situations such as abortion and dealing with the potential to take a life, it's always best to assume something such as a fetus can feel pain. Your analogy about the human shaped doll doesn't make much sense either, a doll is made up of fabrics and cotton, a fetus has the potential to become a living, breathing human being, they develop organs, the human senses, now last I checked, there aren't many dolls that can claim to do be able to do any of those things.

Three, wake up and smell the daisies. We kill living beings for our own comfort all the time. Unless you're a full vegan, then I have to ask: "what do you think you've been eating this past week?". Animals are living organisms just like humans are, so every time you swat a fly you are - by this logic - committing murder. You can argue that killing someone of your own species or something with a 'soul' is a different matter, but this is a question of personal conviction (which varies between people) so there's no universal truth, only a common agreement at best.

Okay, first of all, don't confuse having to kill an animal for the necessity of food with killing one for sport or killing another person just for the Hell of it. Second, it's the natural food chain, we should feel no guilt for having to do what we do to obtain food. I wouldn't pose anything like a vegan or strictly vegetarian diet on a young child or infant, so if it means that they get the nutritional value that they need to eventually grow into a healthy person, then I see nothing wrong with it. Animals do it all the time, they have for millions and millions of years and will continue to do so long after we're gone. That is what nature is, not taking a life before it's born and has the chance to experience life just because the would-be parent doesn't want to do it.

Also... the "baby" is in the women's body. Therefor, she at that moment owns it. Technically, that life is still a part of her life, so she has the right to kill it off or not. I don't see how you people can disagree.

See, to me, this doesn't make any sense whatsoever. You have two scenarios to look at this through, the first, someone stupid had sex when she wasn't ready. Okay, that right there tells me that that person is nowhere near mature enough to make any decision on what to do with another life. The second scenario, the child is a product of rape, again, I know someone like this personally, someone pretty close to me actually. You would think that having just gone through a rape, once they're treated and can think rationally, the person would want no harm to come to another life (well, maybe except the person that did it), if the baby feels like such a shame to her or is too painful to live with because of the memories, she can give it up for adoption. I've seen various other outcomes and none of them ever end well for anyone. The mother is usually scared with the guilt of having just ended a life and never really gets over it.

And also, no one shuld be throwing around crap like "but we're killing off life!", well gee, that happens millions of times every single day.

Those lives can defend themselves, what can a freaking fetus do? Absolutely nothing.

Plus... we need to kill off people... this place is too over crowded, there are too high of unemployment rates, not enough food for everyone etc etc etc. WE NEED LESS PEOPLE. Abortions help with this.

This is just ridiculous. There is usually enough food for people in the world, where the problem lays is that the governments don't usually do a great job of getting it to the people that need them the most and often times, in poor countries, things like war ruin any land that can be used for growing crops and keeping livestock. Jobs I'll give you, but killing people off is no way to go about solving the problem.

 

[Richard Lynch]

One more thing. What if this post weren't here right now because you were a shriveled up pile of skin in an abortion office? Would you like that, pal?

He wouldn't even know what to think... he'd be a shriveled pile of skin. And you don't know anything when you're dead.

Abortion if an iffy topic, but I've always been in favor of a woman's right to choose. Who are we to dictate what a woman does within her own body? Why would we? Because God said so? In America, the land of the free, do we have a right to deny freedom where freedom is due? Is a microscopic pin-point sized goo really a life?

Why not arrest a man because he waxes his carrot? I mean, that's a crap load of Andys and Suzies going down the drain pipe.

A lot of questions can come up when dealing with abortion... it's a debate that will never be won on either side.

I, personally, will never see a little microscopic goo as a life, and will continue to get increasingly more pissed off every time that moron in the White House vetoes a bill to expand Stem Cell Research because "it's against his religion".

I've always said this when in an abortion debate:

When a bany is born, how old is it considered? 0. Well, if life begins at conception (and from conception to birth is generally regarded as 9 months), then why at birth isn't a baby considered 9 months old? Why, at its first birthday, isn't a baby considered a year and three-fourths years old?

Comedy aside, I ask everyone in favor of banning it completely this: what next? They make abortion completely illegal... what next? Will they one day be able to tell you you're only allowed two children because of over population, like in China? Will they be able to tell you what foods you can and can not eat? What cloths you can or can not wear? How you style your hair?

"Illegal" is a bad word and something the government loves to take advantage on, normally based on fear. The fear of going to Hell, in this case. People will always be willing to give up their personal freedom and rights for the illusion of protection and sanctity.

If you're against abortion, fine! Don't have an abortion. But don't tell others what they can and can not do with their own bodies. And the idea that it's a life is just silly; it's not conscious, and anything without consciousness isn't a "life". Maybe it's "alive", but "alive" doesn't mean "life", much like plants. They're alive, and we weed... murder? Same story for every ant you step on when walking in the park, or every bacteria you kill when you clean, or even every piece of paper you write on that was once a living tree. Think about that, I ask you.

If you're gonna believe that goo is a life, might as well take the rest of the package. So, sorry vegetarians and vegans... but you're eating something that was once alive. Whoops to you!

 

[Melody]

I agree. It's not a person until it's out of the mother. After that it's protected.
Which means that the mother has the right to abort. I dont condone abortion but I also feel that women have the right to abort. I just feel that there should be a really good reason for it. like being raped. or the condom broke or even "he pressured me into it."

 

[Alter Ego]

That doesn't exactly work, you need both sperm and an egg to create human life, masturbation and things like periods don't kill off something that has the full potential to become a human. On its own, an egg or sperm will never come to form a body or become truly sentient, and I doubt they can feel much of anything in the way of pain. True, a person is not completely born until they are removed from their mother, but they can still feel pain and they are very much so capable of death, so in my eyes, yes, it is a murder.

Do note that even with that distinction, chosing not to engage in sexual intercourse with every fertile member of the opposite gender that you find would still be denying potential life as that is preventing the conditions in which a human being can be formed, and - indeed - masturbating all the time leaves less sperm to get the job done, and thus lessens your chances of reproducing (Again, where do you draw the line for what is 'wasted potential'?). Also, you can't truly know what's going on with the unseparated baby so don't say 'it can feel pain' like it's a proven fact. Sure, it's very likely that this is the case, but technically you can't prove it anymore than that the sun will rise tommorrow. Don't confuse opinion with fact.

In situations such as abortion and dealing with the potential to take a life, it's always best to assume something such as a fetus can feel pain. Your analogy about the human shaped doll doesn't make much sense either, a doll is made up of fabrics and cotton, a fetus has the potential to become a living, breathing human being, they develop organs, the human senses, now last I checked, there aren't many dolls that can claim to do be able to do any of those things.

Yeah, way to go twisting my quote out of context...-.- Perhaps I should remind you that it was in response to this:

It has the form of a human body, it looks like a human body, it becomes a human body

I was simply pointing out that just because something 'looks' human we shouldn't make the mistake of attributing human characteristics to it based solely on appearance, the condition you add is also so and so. Just because it can become a human body it doesn't mean that we should attribute human rights to it before it becomes one. Egg cells can become human bodies too, but obviously periods aren't illegal.

Okay, first of all, don't confuse having to kill an animal for the necessity of food with killing one for sport or killing another person just for the Hell of it. Second, it's the natural food chain, we should feel no guilt for having to do what we do to obtain food. I wouldn't pose anything like a vegan or strictly vegetarian diet on a young child or infant, so if it means that they get the nutritional value that they need to eventually grow into a healthy person, then I see nothing wrong with it. Animals do it all the time, they have for millions and millions of years and will continue to do so long after we're gone. That is what nature is, not taking a life before it's born and has the chance to experience life just because the would-be parent doesn't want to do it.

First off, we don't kill animals out of pure necessity; it has been proven that a human being can survive without touching meat, we are killing animals for convenience (because it's a plentiful and self-replenishing resource) and because a more varied diet makes us healthier (i.e. improves the quality of our lives, i.e. luxury; not necessity). Second, abortions aren't made 'for sport' or 'just for the hell of it', the sex that preceeds it might have, but the abortion is a separate matter. I just can't imagine anyone treating painful surgery and/or depressing medication as a hobby. Seriously, just because someone decides on abortion it doesn't mean that that decision was made lightly. xP

See, to me, this doesn't make any sense whatsoever. You have two scenarios to look at this through, the first, someone stupid had sex when she wasn't ready. Okay, that right there tells me that that person is nowhere near mature enough to make any decision on what to do with another life. The second scenario, the child is a product of rape, again, I know someone like this personally, someone pretty close to me actually. You would think that having just gone through a rape, once they're treated and can think rationally, the person would want no harm to come to another life (well, maybe except the person that did it), if the baby feels like such a shame to her or is too painful to live with because of the memories, she can give it up for adoption. I've seen various other outcomes and none of them ever end well for anyone. The mother is usually scared with the guilt of having just ended a life and never really gets over it.

Those lives can defend themselves, what can a freaking fetus do? Absolutely nothing.

First scenario: you know, she'll end up deciding about another person's life either way. If the careless person gives birth to the baby then she'll either have to take care of him/her herself or decide who gets to do it, in either case she's making a decision that will affect the rest of the baby's life and - legally speaking - she is the only one who's allowed to do it, yet - as you pointed out - she's already demonstrated her lack of judgement in the first place. So basically, the mother is highly likely to make a bad choice for the baby-to-be either way. Who's to say that she isn't allowed to make the potentially bad decision that will have the least negative impact on the other people (mother, family etc.)? True, the fetus can't defend its rights (assuming that we give it any, which has yet to be decided) but how far does that excuse go to justify harming the lives of others? Does already having been born somehow diminish your rights as a human being? This is a part of the anti-abortion sentiment that I've never understood. So, um...clarify that, please?

Second case: that guilt might not be there were it not for the people screaming 'Abortion is murder!' on the streets, you know. <_< Rape victims are most likely already in a vulnerable emotional state, which is why I find it particularly distasteful that they are subjected to this kind of distressing fearmongering and guilt triping. Also, note that it is still open whether the fetus can be considered to have a life, so we might not be dealing with a decision of whether to harm a life or not but whether to give one or not, those are quite different situations.

I'd also like to introduce a couple of aspects which you excluded here. First, fetuses might get aborted by natural means too, is a woman who takes a too hard hit to the stomach or takes up the wrong diet (resulting in miscarriage) a murderer too? From the perspective of the fetus that's no different from an abortion performed by a doctor, yet the mother might not have made a conscious decision. Second, what about a pregnancy that occurs in spite of preventatives being used on both sides? Would you still say that the woman has an obligation to give birth to the child even though she did all she could to avoid the situation?

This is just ridiculous. There is usually enough food for people in the world, where the problem lays is that the governments don't usually do a great job of getting it to the people that need them the most and often times, in poor countries, things like war ruin any land that can be used for growing crops and keeping livestock. Jobs I'll give you, but killing people off is no way to go about solving the problem.

Agreed, "We need to kill people to correct the food/space problem" doesn't sound like an ethically justifiable position. However, I would like to point out that since there already are more than enough of us here, I really don't see a need to force the people who really don't have the potential or will to do it to go through with an unpleasant birthgiving that could potentially harm their health for the rest of their lives. How to say...I'm looking at it not as deciding wheter to end lives really early but whether to bring them into the world in the first place. Also, note that where there is demand there will be supply, that's basic economic reasoning that has proven to hold true in practice, so banning abortion will not stop people from having abortions, it will just shift the suppliers from respectable doctors to black market quacks and suspect pills that will not only end the baby's life but most likely the mother's as well. I don't know about you, but I'd rather see the work done by people who know their medicine and aren't liable to steal the patient's kidney while they're at it. :\

 

[Richard Lynch]

I agree. It's not a person until it's out of the mother. After that it's protected.
Which means that the mother has the right to abort. I dont condone abortion but I also feel that women have the right to abort. I just feel that there should be a really good reason for it. like being raped. or the condom broke or even "he pressured me into it."

Oh, I agree too! I would never condone it, and if something like this ever happened to me, I would try to talk the woman out of it... it is, after all, a slightly mutual decision, since there's a piece of the man in that little glob of goo too.

But I also feel it's something we would should teach against. At an abortion clinic, why not go through multiple other options before the decision is acted on? It's always better to teach against it rather than completely ban it.

Like I said, "illegal" is bad for society, and under very rare circumstances should something be made completely "illegal".