Alola's relations to Kalos

[Hikamaru]

One thing I do ponder: Is a larger share of the Pokemon gaming fandom caring less about Pokemon backstory and more about game mechanics and battling? If this seems to be the case, then I hardly blame GF for going with the majority, although this is thinking out loud and nothing more.

Interesting thought there, especially with some of 6th Gen's new mechanics mainly catering to the competitive battling community such as Super Training, Friend Safari and the changes to breeding mechanics. I do like hearing about backstories myself, so I can understand the feels when a legendary Pokemon's backstory is not explained much, if not at all.

 

[BettyNewbie]

If the only argument for keeping Kalos around or giving a reboot is primarily for the sake of story and story alone, then that isn't a very extremely telling argument and/or reason for the fans who were tired of Kalos and wanted something fresh and new, Playing through the same old region, through the same old story, through the same villains only to get an extra bit of story for 3 Pokemon doesn't seem very worth it at all to me, despite (and I know someone's going to use this argument on me) the releases of Emerald, B2W2, and Platinum doing these exact same things. A third game or a sequel is going to be nothing more than mechanics improvements and some storyline fixation, and you might as well manage those resources developing a new game anyway and potentially shoehorn some reference towards past generations, if desirable and if it fits.

That's the issue, though. How can there be that many people who were tired of Kalos when it barely featured in its own generation to begin with? XY were quickly overshadowed by ORAS/Hoenn after only a year, and even the Gen 6 Pokémon themselves were severely overshadowed by all of the Megas that were given to older (mostly Gen 1 and Gen 3) Pokémon.

This is why I like the idea of GSC-style sequels. We'll still get a new region and new Pokémon, but Kalos and its Pokémon won't get left behind either.

One thing I do ponder: Is a larger share of the Pokemon gaming fandom caring less about Pokemon backstory and more about game mechanics and battling? If this seems to be the case, then I hardly blame GF for going with the majority, although this is thinking out loud and nothing more.

That's a good question. I've always maintained that the competitive crowd is very much a minority of the fandom, but also the most vocal and visible part of it. I think a large number of players are at least casual, if not story-oriented, but their voices just aren't being heard.

 

[janejane6178]

I do feel that the general focus of Gen 6 as a whole was more towards mega evolutions, while ORAS really added onto that, while incorporating Primal Kyogre/Groudon/M-Rayquaza into the mix. I cannot speak for anyone at GF obviously, but in my perspective, it seems to be fairly difficult to tell a distinct story and relationship between Xerneas, Yveltal and Zygarde. Whereas with Pokemon with Dialga and Palkia, we have a relationship with Time and Space, and The Lake trio which is utilized to summon them, and Giratina, who is basically the embodiment of dark matter. With B/W, we have Reshiram and Zekrom who symbolized Truth and Ideals. And then in R/S/E, we have the Weather Trio which their purposes was made obvious.

But what is there to really say about Xerneas and Yveltal? One represents Life, the other represents Death, and Zygarde represents balance between life and death (not taking the other forms into account). Of course, there are still questions remaining to be asked, such as how does Zygarde influence Life and Death in a way, but I think that's getting too philosophical, don't you think? :P

Well, I disagree and think that Xerneas, Yveltal and Zygrade could have the most interesting story out of the other trio's. Furthermore, if like u said it could be too philosophical then GF SHOULDNT have created them in the first place. You guys r getting so excited over the Sun and Moon's legeneds but what if they get treated the same way Gen 6's legenderies got treated? If GF did it once they could do it once more. I will repeat my self and say that if GF wanna hype fans by creating such potentialed legenderies then they should end their story properly, else just go back to basic with generic and boring legenderies, instead of hyping us up for nothing.

 

[janejane6178]

That's fine and well if you think otherwise! I don't think that they shouldn't have been created; they're fine Pokemon to represent Life and Death and the Balance that lies between, but if you said that they could have the most interesting story without providing speculation about what story that could possibly be, then is there really much left to tell?

Well, it's not my job to speculate and bring up stories for the Pokemon games. I do know for sure, however, that many people around this forum could think of a nice story that also involves Zygrade( Which was left out without using it's "secret power" according to its Pokedex).

 

[Hikamaru]

My general point is that I do not think there is much to say beyond what is already said. You also want to remember that these are Pokemon games and GF can only tread so lightly on the subject of life and death before it starts to piss off sensitive types.

You have a point, maybe Game Freak didn't want to risk upsetting the sensitive people with Xerneas and Yveltal's backstory and that could be why they aren't looking as memorable to us compared to other box legendaries.

 

[Rivvon]

I just think it's odd that they made Zygarde at all if they weren't going to use it as a major plot-relevant Pokémon at some point. Gen 6 has so few new Pokémon as it is, so what would one less be? They didn't even bother to make a (minor) legendary trio for the region, opting to use Kanto's birds. And Mewtwo can be fought as the post-game legendary...so why didn't they just leave it at that? Why go through all the time and effort to create another legendary, and actually bother to give it lore that could easily be elaborated upon, if it's not gonna actually do anything in any of the games? They went through all that so it can be in the anime and that's it? They could have used any other Pokémon and just given it a few new forms if that was the case.

Even ORAS, which cut some highly requested content from Emerald, bothered to keep Rayquaza plot-relevant. And gen 2 had three games with only a main legendary duo; if they were planning from the start for XY to be only two games, they shouldn't have made Zygarde. That's not so say I wish they hadn't--I love Zygarde--but rather that since they did make it, it (and Kalos as a whole) deserve some legit in-game closure. What I'm saying is, I hope they didn't just make Zygarde for the sake of being a red herring, because I feel that would be a choice made in fairly poor taste.

 

[Hikamaru]

I agree, it's probably the reason that now I feel I haven't enjoyed 6th Gen as much as I first thought, because of how much Zygarde has been getting the shaft, and the low number of new Pokemon in general that are nothing but overshadowed by the presence of so many older Pokemon.

 

[OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire]

It is sad what they did with Zygarde. Perhaps GF will surprise us and make Z for Gen VII after SM.

 

[BettyNewbie]

I just think it's odd that they made Zygarde at all if they weren't going to use it as a major plot-relevant Pokémon at some point. Gen 6 has so few new Pokémon as it is, so what would one less be? They didn't even bother to make a (minor) legendary trio for the region, opting to use Kanto's birds. And Mewtwo can be fought as the post-game legendary...so why didn't they just leave it at that? Why go through all the time and effort to create another legendary, and actually bother to give it lore that could easily be elaborated upon, if it's not gonna actually do anything in any of the games? They went through all that so it can be in the anime and that's it? They could have used any other Pokémon and just given it a few new forms if that was the case.

Even ORAS, which cut some highly requested content from Emerald, bothered to keep Rayquaza plot-relevant. And gen 2 had three games with only a main legendary duo; if they were planning from the start for XY to be only two games, they shouldn't have made Zygarde. That's not so say I wish they hadn't--I love Zygarde--but rather that since they did make it, it (and Kalos as a whole) deserve some legit in-game closure. What I'm saying is, I hope they didn't just make Zygarde for the sake of being a red herring, because I feel that would be a choice made in fairly poor taste.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Why even make a Mascot Trio in the first place if you're not actually going to tell their entire story?

The main reason Rayquaza, Giratina, and Kyurem even came into existence in the first place was so GF wouldn't be stuck putting an unequal/lesser legendary on the third version or sequel (as what happened with Crystal), so it stands to reason that Zygarde was intended to be the mascot of a game.

I still think that there was a Z or X2Y2 in planning at one point, and it was scrapped at the last minute in favor of SM/Gen 7 (hence, the lack of new games or news in 2015). I just cannot believe that GF actually intended for XY to be a standalone pair and for Zygarde to have no game or story.

You guys r getting so excited over the Sun and Moon's legeneds but what if they get treated the same way Gen 6's legenderies got treated? If GF did it once they could do it once more. I will repeat my self and say that if GF wanna hype fans by creating such potentialed legenderies then they should end their story properly, else just go back to basic with generic and boring legenderies, instead of hyping us up for nothing.

Exactly. Few people seem to realize what a dangerous precedent the abandoning of XY sets for future games. Even if you didn't like Kalos, the exact same thing could easily happen to a region that you do like down the road.

 

[COOLTRAINER♂]

I think Game Freak is aware that they're making a lot of special Pokemon that are mostly featured in other games and movies, to give the rest of the brand something new to show off in the time between new main series games.

I don't subscribe to the opinion that S/M wasn't decided on early though- their big main games take a long time to make, so production is very likely to have started as XY were winding down. The Pokemon brand owners as a whole would have been aware of 2016 being the 20th anniversary of Red/Green's release and would've been planning for a lot of big stuff to release then. There was no new game in 2015 because they simply can't produce games that quickly without sacrificing quality.

On another note, I think we should be expecting Game Freak to tell their full story in one game, not expect them to have enough hanging around that we need a full-price expansion to tie the loose ends. If XY hasn't done that so well then I'd rather look towards Sun & Moon being an overall improvement instead of jumping to the worst-case scenario.

 

[janejane6178]

Couldn't have said it better myself. Why even make a Mascot Trio in the first place if you're not actually going to tell their entire story?

The main reason Rayquaza, Giratina, and Kyurem even came into existence in the first place was so GF wouldn't be stuck putting an unequal/lesser legendary on the third version or sequel (as what happened with Crystal), so it stands to reason that Zygarde was intended to be the mascot of a game.

I still think that there was a Z or X2Y2 in planning at one point, and it was scrapped at the last minute in favor of SM/Gen 7 (hence, the lack of new games or news in 2015). I just cannot believe that GF actually intended for XY to be a standalone pair and for Zygarde to have no game or story.



Exactly. Few people seem to realize what a dangerous precedent the abandoning of XY sets for future games. Even if you didn't like Kalos, the exact same thing could easily happen to a region that you do like down the road.

You're absolutely right. I see how people are speculating and getting so excited for SM's legends etc but I, however, know that we are gonna have yet many un solved mysteries and thereforer I'm not that excited.

 

[BettyNewbie]

I think Game Freak is aware that they're making a lot of special Pokemon that are mostly featured in other games and movies, to give the rest of the brand something new to show off in the time between new main series games.

But, Zygarde isn't an event-only "mythical" legendary like Mew, Celebi, or Jirachi. It's a third mascot legendary, just like Rayquaza, Giratina, and Kyurem. Nobody expects the event-only legendaries to have huge stories in the games, but there's an expectation that mascot legendaries get properly fleshed out in the games, especially since RSE.

(Mewtwo, Lugia, and Ho-Oh can be excused for existing before GF decided to center the plots of the games around legendaries, and even Mewtwo and Ho-Oh still arguably got more in the games than Zygarde.)

On another note, I think we should be expecting Game Freak to tell their full story in one game, not expect them to have enough hanging around that we need a full-price expansion to tie the loose ends.

I don't think many people would disagree with that. (Although, I'd still like to see more sequels, myself.)

If XY hasn't done that so well then I'd rather look towards Sun & Moon being an overall improvement instead of jumping to the worst-case scenario.

That's the point, though. People want to see XY/Kalos done right before jumping on to a completely brand new region and story. XY should not be left to rot in the past without proper closure.

 

[BettyNewbie]

You may bring up the question of "why create them in the first place", but I don't think that's a question that can easily be answered so there's no real point in asking that; what we have instead are three major legendaries that represent a pretty heavy philosophy of life and death.

But, that IS a question worth asking if what you say actually was the case, that Xerneas, Yveltal, and Zygarde represented themes that were too dark and heavy for kids to understand. Since RSE, there's been an expectation that the mascot legendaries have fleshed-out backstories and play significant roles in the games' plots, and XY largely fell short of that expectation.

Why go through the trouble of making a whole new Mascot Legendary Trio if you're not going to do hardly anything with them? If it was going to be this way, then XY should've just returned to the RBY/GSC way of doing Box Legendaries, aka. only one or two of them and being nothing more than minor sidequests.

 

[Desert Stream~]

People are still going on about this? It's a whole new region, with little to no connection to any of the others. Johto was the one exception, and that was years ago.

 

[Iceshadow3317]

People are still going on about this? It's a whole new region, with little to no connection to any of the others. Johto was the one exception, and that was years ago.

Yes, but people still have hope that the would do a throw back to those games. People have wanted a multi region game for a long time and the 20th Ann game would be the perfect time to do it. Just because we haven't had it in a long time, doesn't mean they will completely throw out the idea.

And because there is SOOO many unsolved things in the 6ht Gen games, that continues the hope.

 

[BettyNewbie]

The reason why I do not see it as a question worth asking is because there's no easy answer nor explanation for it (to put it this way). Sure, there's nothing stopping anyone from pondering about it until they turn blue in the face from overthinking every angle, but aside from the possible explanation of Gamefreak deciding to create a legendary trio with a darker-than-usual theme and treading lightly on it as to not offend people, what more can you really say? It's most likely they created these Pokemon with a deep theme for the same reason they created any other mascot trio with a deep theme. The extent of how deep they tread into that territory, however, varies.

But, again, I just can't see why anyone would go through the trouble of creating these legendaries only to leave their story unfinished. Does anybody actually prefer an incomplete story to a complete one? That just makes no sense.

I just can't believe that GF considers XY to be a complete, finished product, and if that is the case, that sets a horrifying, dangerous precedent for the franchise. What it tells me is that GF really doesn't give a crap about the quality of their games and is content with cranking out the same thing over and over again, never innovating or shaking up the formula.

 

[OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire]

That's a rather radical conclusion to jump to. oO Again, your definition of "complete" most likely does not mesh with what Gamefreak considers "complete". Zygarde probably wasn't supposed to have a super big role like those of Kyurem, Giratina and company, and played more of a smaller role in the grand scheme of things, so it didn't need such an expansive story, who knows? I just don't see the point of getting up in arms about it and thinking that they're going to doom the franchise and set it on fire; it just sets a statement that there may not be legendaries with such expansive stories like the ones we've become accustomed to over the years. It does not mean it's the end of the world.

They did seem to imply that Zygarde's role (basis this on it's dex entries) would be as big as Rayquaza and Giratina's, that is breaking up the evil team's scheme, or even fixing the world after Flare succeeds. Maybe they just found that latter scenerio to be too dark to use.

 

[WingsofBliss]

@Rivvon and @BettyNewbie have pretty much hit the nail on the head with what I'm thinking. Even though I'm excited for SM so far, I'm also affraid of how Zygarde and XY in general were treated may be a precedent to what may happen with SM as well. It won't matter if you're in the "Kalos/Zygarde hater" bandwagon of if you bother to watch the XYZ anime, those particular fans may end up feeling the same disappointment with SM that the "pro-Kalos/Zygarde fans" have felt with the lack of a "Z". If they give us another 3rd version Legendary for SM, I seriously hope they give it a post-game episode quest for it since it looks like they plan on shelving 3rd versions for good.

I know that Game Freak is pretty infamous for leaving things unexplained and short on story-telling, but the thing with XY and Zygarde is a little more significant when you make comparisons to the likes of Rayquaza, Giratina, and Kyurem. And even then, there's no denying that they dropped the ball in overall quality with Gen 6 when they have given us games like Emerald, Platinum, BW, and BW2 in the past.

 

[Jeischita_Homaji]

Alola has as much connection to Kalos as Unova has to Johto. Basically they exist in the same world, thats about it.

 

[WingsofBliss]

How about instead of looking at direct connections between the two regions, how about all the hints and references that we got in XY? We had gotten a lot of throwbacks and fanfare towards Kanto(the past), and some pretty blatant(Backpacker with Strange Souvenir) and subtle(Anistar NPC talking about sundials and moondials) hints towards the future(Sun and Moon). I'm starting to think that XY was meant to be some sort of bridge between Gens 1-5 and Gens 7-(?). Also that maybe XY was like a testing ground for the overhaul in graphics and gameplay, hence why they didn't get so much focus plot-wise(let's face it, XY's plot paled in comparison to Gen 5's).