Animal Intelligence

[Guillermo]

Intelligence isn't based on your environmental effects. Just because we don't need luxuries to survive, doesn't mean that we shouldn't use it.



Yes, because we have the mental capacity to create things like electricity and the Internet. As far as we know, we are the only species to ever exist to be that technologically advanced.
The way I see it, stupid decisions≠stupidity.

Is it possible for an instinct to turn into a full blown reflex through a species if used well enough? Because if so, I personally find reflexes to have nothing to do with intelligence.

Exactly. If we were *so* technologically advanced, we'd know of other species around the Universe. If you think about it, we're really not that smart compared to what else could be out there.

In order to make a stupid decision, you'd have to have some level of stupidity, tyvm. Don't try play that card with me! >:

Dude, screw the environment. What has it done for us? Everything we have we've had to get for ourselves while avoiding all of its attempts to kill us. And while we develop new ways to live and adapt to changes in the environment, it comes up with more ways to kill us.

See the computer you're using? Only possible because we are able to rape the earth and extract the delicious materials from within. Electricity? More rape. Food, safe drinking water, shelter, etc - we've had to secure for ourselves.

And if we mess up the environment while doing it, so what? We'll just adapt once more. Adaptation is our greatest strength. We have inhabited every environment on surface of this planet all because of our ability to adapt, and I'm sure we'll get to outer space as well.

tl;dr screw the environment

Anyway, yes animals are intelligent. Most don't have a level of intelligence that is close to ours, but intelligence still exists.

Raping the Earth is bad, Ray. I told you that.

And it takes time to adapt. During that time, thousands, if not millions of people will die trying to adapt to a newly found environment. Why? Because we used stuff we didn't need.

 

[Corvus of the Black Night]

Never said anything about speech. I based my post primarily on the mirror test. Make of that what you will (the test has its critics). I really don't care enough about the topic to argue about it though. XP

The African Grey does not pass the mirror test, though - the only bird to do so is actually the European Magpie, a Corvid.

The mirror test is a measure of spacial intellegence, which is rather limited. It shows that the species that pass are capable of understanding a single concept. Intellegence is such a widespread concept (including, but not limited to, spacial, navigational, logical, and communication intellegence) cannot be summarized by a single test. The mirror test is also limited to those species using vision as their main sense. It also lacks to show individual variances between members of the species - I have tried personally to initiate the effects of the test on my first dog without success, however, another one of my dogs was not aware that her reflection was not another animal.

On the subject of "humans and tools", humans are specialized to build tools, not because of our brains (although they're a great help, heheheh) but because of our unique hands.

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Instincts's abilities and learning are both limited if the organism is not conscious of their own actions.

For the former, there would be required so many instincts to the organism's life would be completely run their lives, leaving them extremely limited in their flexibility. It could possibly work with certain invertabrates, however, upon presenting the extremely advanced lifeforms such as mammals and birds - despite many species being wiped out because of their specialized niche (which their decline is based on the shape of their bodies rather than their intellegence or consciousness), many mammals and birds have adapted to the swift changes that have occured within the last 100 years. If relying solely on instinct, they would all be wiped out.

For the latter, learning would be meaningless to an animal incapable of making decisions. For example, a fledgling robin near my home would often times allow me to walk up to it, less than a foot away. It wasn't until I gave it a scare by reaching out my hand to it before it flew away. This frighting experience was repeated several times, which eventually made the fledgling flee at a normal distance. The bird learned to fear people and other large animals because it remembers the scary event of me reaching my hand to it, and, in a gesture to avoid a similar experience, flies away before anything can hurt it.

 

[Luck]

Exactly. If we were *so* technologically advanced, we'd know of other species around the Universe. If you think about it, we're really not that smart compared to what else could be out there.

Not really. We don't even know how much species are on our own planet, let alone alien planets. We're advanced, but not to the point of what you're suggesting.

In order to make a stupid decision, you'd have to have some level of stupidity, tyvm. Don't try play that card with me! >:

But that doesn't necessarily make you stupid.

 

[Spearow]

Common arguments are that animals can't talk (never mind the fact that they can talk to each other - they can't talk to us, and therefore they're stupid)

I think the common argument you are referring to is that animals don't have language, which is a pretty different thing from being able to "talk", ie make noises. And the definition of language a whole separate can of worms (see Noam Chomsky). Note that I am not saying animals don't have language, just pointing out that the debate has more depth than "We can't understand what they're saying, therefore they are not saying anything."

 

[Pokeyomom]

Well of course they have some innate intelligence! All of which is probably soley dependant upon their higher cotical physiology. Although I admit, I don't know much in this area:p I read somwhere that some Cephalopods exhibit some pretty decent mathimatical skills. I don't think science is quite as versed in this area as they should be:C But then again it lacks much understanding of human intelligence as well.

Well of course they have some innate intelligence! All of which is probably soley dependant upon their higher cotical physiology. Although I admit, I don't know much in this area:p I read somwhere that some Cephalopods exhibit some pretty decent mathimatical skills. I don't think science is quite as versed in this area as they should be:C But then again it lacks much understanding of human intelligence as well.

 

[Zet]

If they didn't have any intelligence they would all probably be in some sort of vegetated state

 

[Guillermo]

Not really. We don't even know how much species are on our own planet, let alone alien planets. We're advanced, but not to the point of what you're suggesting.


But that doesn't necessarily make you stupid.

Yes, we're advanced, I know that. Being advanced doesn't make us intelligent. The reason we don't know what's on our own planet is because there's a limit to what we can do. There's probably millions of species of fish in the ocean hundreds of thousands of metres into the depths and we can't see it nor find it. Why? Simply because we don't have the amount of advanced equipment you're trying to make out we do. We're not that advanced, buddy.

Think about the cavemen. Did they need the internet or mobile phones to be happy? I don't think so. Since we learned of technology and used it all we've ever experienced is fighting and war and hatred.

Animals know a lot more than we do about our planet. We know more about technology. At the end of the day, what's more important? I certainly think it's not technology.

 

[Spearow]

Wait, why are we talking about technology again? Last time I checked knowledge and intelligence were not the same thing. "Animals haven't invented cell phones" isn't really a valid argument against animal sentience any more than "humans have damaged the environment" is a valid argument for it.

Animals know a lot more than we do about our planet.

Do they really know, in the sense of understanding it on a conscious level? Or is it hardwired into their brains? I think it's hard to say, though for most animals (if you're talking about what I'm thinking about) the evidence points more to the latter.

At the end of the day, what's more important? I certainly think it's not technology.

I don't really want to pursue this line of debate since it doesn't seem that pertinent to the topic of intelligence, but I just thought I'd add that technology also has the capacity to save and/or improve lives, human and animal. :x

 

[Luck]

Yes, we're advanced, I know that. Being advanced doesn't make us intelligent.

Maybe not as a whole, but it takes intelligence to make it in the first place.

The reason we don't know what's on our own planet is because there's a limit to what we can do. There's probably millions of species of fish in the ocean hundreds of thousands of metres into the depths and we can't see it nor find it. Why? Simply because we don't have the amount of advanced equipment you're trying to make out we do. We're not that advanced, buddy.

Actually, there are groups for marine biology, and new species are found every day. There are helmet jellyfish and dumbo octopuses that were just recently found. We are advanced in many ways, especially since we know the life of a star without anyone having lived long enough to record it, and to find the orbit of Pluto without even knowing it for 100 years. No other species can use complex mathematical equations and find how universal laws work.

Think about the cavemen. Did they need the internet or mobile phones to be happy? I don't think so. Since we learned of technology and used it all we've ever experienced is fighting and war and hatred.

Now that isn't accurate. Long before modern technology, there was still wars and petty arguments. Luxuries are wants, not needs, and if people are stupid enough to commit suicide because of something petty, then it is their fault for being so dependent on it(people committed suicide during the stock market crash because they were broke.) but of course, with negatives come positives. Just because we screwed our environment up and made the extinction rate 1000x faster, doesn't mean that we can't have a positive effect on the environment.

Basically, technology doesn't kill people. [Stupid] People kill people.

Animals know a lot more than we do about our planet. We know more about technology. At the end of the day, what's more important? I certainly think it's not technology.

Not really. I don't think that animals are capable of knowing what the center of the Earth is like, or how rain clouds form, or how any other thing works. They certainly don't know about agriculture and its many advantages. Because otherwise, I'm pretty sure they would follow the same path we would, even without thumbs.

 

[Corvus of the Black Night]

If they didn't have any intelligence they would all probably be in some sort of vegetated state

Are you saying plants are stupid? ;;

um wat lol 8D

The fact that everyone keeps bringing up technology and the enviornment irks me - as Spearow stated, knowledge and intellegence are two very different things that are often confused. Technology is something that is produced by a cumulation of our knowledge, brought upon by our intelligence, but also relies on our unique hands to create. Part of the reason why many animals don't progress on a technological level is not because they aren't intelligent, but are incapable of passing down much of their knowledge to their children, which makes it nearly impossible to build much from it.

Claiming that "animals are intelligent because they know how to use the enviornment" is ludicrous - it's not their intellegence that enables them to survive, but rather their physical bodies - when that enviornment they're designed for is destroyed, those who cannot adjust die, which is where all this extinction is comming from. Animal intelligence is when the animal deviates from using solely what it was designed to to and makes its own decisions and actions to obtain a desired result. Humans are a prime example of this, however, it is not to say that other species are incapable of such spontaneous thought, which is where the debate (and animal rights for that matter) originates from.

 

[Guillermo]

Wait, why are we talking about technology again? Last time I checked knowledge and intelligence were not the same thing. "Animals haven't invented cell phones" isn't really a valid argument against animal sentience any more than "humans have damaged the environment" is a valid argument for it.

Do they really know, in the sense of understanding it on a conscious level? Or is it hardwired into their brains? I think it's hard to say, though for most animals (if you're talking about what I'm thinking about) the evidence points more to the latter.

I don't really want to pursue this line of debate since it doesn't seem that pertinent to the topic of intelligence, but I just thought I'd add that technology also has the capacity to save and/or improve lives, human and animal. :x

I guess since they've lived in their natural environments for so long it's just become part of them, like you stated. And with that said, it also has the capacity to destroy them, human and animal.

Maybe not as a whole, but it takes intelligence to make it in the first place.

Actually, there are groups for marine biology, and new species are found every day. There are helmet jellyfish and dumbo octopuses that were just recently found. We are advanced in many ways, especially since we know the life of a star without anyone having lived long enough to record it, and to find the orbit of Pluto without even knowing it for 100 years. No other species can use complex mathematical equations and find how universal laws work.

Now that isn't accurate. Long before modern technology, there was still wars and petty arguments. Luxuries are wants, not needs, and if people are stupid enough to commit suicide because of something petty, then it is their fault for being so dependent on it(people committed suicide during the stock market crash because they were broke.) but of course, with negatives come positives. Just because we screwed our environment up and made the extinction rate 1000x faster, doesn't mean that we can't have a positive effect on the environment.

Basically, technology doesn't kill people. [Stupid] People kill people.

Not really. I don't think that animals are capable of knowing what the center of the Earth is like, or how rain clouds form, or how any other thing works. They certainly don't know about agriculture and its many advantages. Because otherwise, I'm pretty sure they would follow the same path we would, even without thumbs.

You don't know that though. You can't venture into another species brain and know what it does and doesn't know. Who said anything about suicide? People could perform suicide before anything was invented. lol. Because yes, we're really having a positive effect on the environment right now, aren't we? And no, it really doesn't take *that much* intellect to be able to build and use things. Sure it takes a bit but nothing an animal doesn't have. I'm not exactly the smartest kid on the block, but I'm capable of making cabinets and tables in Technology classes. The dumbest person in the world would probably be able to invent something if he or she took different gadgets and spent a long enough time mixing them around and putting them together. When people invent things, they do it as they go. They don't have a plan that's always set and follow the exact plan. Sure, some people do, but 90% of people don't.

 

[Corvus of the Black Night]

Guys, we're discussing animal "intelligence", not animal "knowledge". It could be either way what animals do and don't know about what the world, but it's about how they obtain this information that matters.

Personally, I think that if animals could pass down their knowledge down better, they could possibly be as advanced as we are with our knowledge of the world.

 

[Luck]

You don't know that though. You can't venture into another species brain and know what it does and doesn't know.

Of course. But it is logically accurate to assume that they don't know about scientific methods and math. I fail to see why the species would be this secret towards something as simple as counting, apart from a few others. Is this part of the New World Order conspiracy?

Who said anything about suicide? People could perform suicide before anything was invented. lol. Because yes, we're really having a positive effect on the environment right now, aren't we?

Maybe not as a whole, but there are people out there that care for our planet. There are groups that help repopulate and defend endangered species. There are groups that willingly participate in helping fix things like oil spills and deforestation.
And YES, I do know that this was all caused by humans, but at least we are working on more environment friendly resources.
And you would know that how?

Sure it takes a bit but nothing an animal doesn't have. I'm not exactly the smartest kid on the block, but I'm capable of making cabinets and tables in Technology classes. The dumbest person in the world would probably be able to invent something if he or she took different gadgets and spent a long enough time mixing them around and putting them together. When people invent things, they do it as they go. They don't have a plan that's always set and follow the exact plan. Sure, some people do, but 90% of people don't.

But that is the thing. We do have something almost no other animal has. We have thumbs. You cannot create tools like spears and rakes with hooves and talons. Because of our hands and our brains, we are technology savvy.

 

[Guillermo]

Guys, we're discussing animal "intelligence", not animal "knowledge". It could be either way what animals do and don't know about what the world, but it's about how they obtain this information that matters.

Personally, I think that if animals could pass down their knowledge down better, they could possibly be as advanced as we are with our knowledge of the world.

I generally agree with this. As for what I believe, Animals are extremely in touch with nature and its surroundings. How they get their information could vary from animal to animal.

Of course. But it is logically accurate to assume that they don't know about scientific methods and math. I fail to see why the species would be this secret towards something as simple as counting, apart from a few others. Is this part of the New World Order conspiracy?

Maybe not as a whole, but there are people out there that care for our planet. There are groups that help repopulate and defend endangered species. There are groups that willingly participate in helping fix things like oil spills and deforestation.
And YES, I do know that this was all caused by humans, but at least we are working on more environment friendly resources.
And you would know that how?

But that is the thing. We do have something almost no other animal has. We have thumbs. You cannot create tools like spears and rakes with hooves and talons. Because of our hands and our brains, we are technology savvy.

But that's also the thing. Animals adapt to making things with what suits them and what they have at their disposal. What good would a spear or rake do to an animal? Their physical features determines how they defend themselves, not with tools and weaponary.

Yes, there are indeed people out there trying to help the environment, but that's probably what? 10% of the entire population, maybe a bit more. The other 80-90% couldn't care less and just go about their daily routine. But that's not the point.

And I know what how? :[

This argument is really getting nowhere, so I'm just going to end it with a brief paragraph stating that I think animals do have intelligence, and it's not as advanced as human intelligence, but in the sense of anything *but* technology, we're really not that intelligent.

 

[thadarkcookie]

oh ya dogs and other animals are very smart they make antone smile i hope animals are like ppl

 

[DB's Animal Communication Service]

ALL animals are VERY smart. Certain Animals are even smarter than us. Some animals may even think that WE are dumb.

how so? let's say you have a cat. Your cat goes near the sofa, you then would naturally go "Don't scratch the sofa!" at the same time, A mental imagine of your cat scratching the sofa goes though your mind, and your cat scratches the sofa. You then kick your cat out as punishment.

What happens here is that mental image of the cat scratching your sofa was reached by your cat, so she did as you requested, only to be kicked out....

So, your cat is most likely now thinking "How rude! I did as you requested!"

some animals even have the Intelligence to predict the future...

 

[twocows]

Possibly; they may be "intelligent" depending on how you define the word. However, the real question for me isn't whether they have emotions or intelligence (plenty of things do), it's whether they can understand the concept of right and wrong. For starters, if the being in question is willing to kill for any reason other than defense, then they do not deserve to be treated as anything other than a stupid creature. And stupid creatures tend to make delicious dinners. :3

I tend to believe that if the being in question can differentiate between what should be a means and what should be an end in itself, we should treat it as the latter.

ALL animals are VERY smart. Certain Animals are even smarter than us. Some animals may even think that WE are dumb.

how so? let's say you have a cat. Your cat goes near the sofa, you then would naturally go "Don't scratch the sofa!" at the same time, A mental imagine of your cat scratching the sofa goes though your mind, and your cat scratches the sofa. You then kick your cat out as punishment.

What happens here is that mental image of the cat scratching your sofa was reached by your cat, so she did as you requested, only to be kicked out....

So, your cat is most likely now thinking "How rude! I did as you requested!"

some animals even have the Intelligence to predict the future...

https://xkcd.com/285/

 

[Luck]

ALL animals are VERY smart. Certain Animals are even smarter than us. Some animals may even think that WE are dumb.

how so? let's say you have a cat. Your cat goes near the sofa, you then would naturally go "Don't scratch the sofa!" at the same time, A mental imagine of your cat scratching the sofa goes though your mind, and your cat scratches the sofa. You then kick your cat out as punishment.

What happens here is that mental image of the cat scratching your sofa was reached by your cat, so she did as you requested, only to be kicked out....

So, your cat is most likely now thinking "How rude! I did as you requested!"

some animals even have the Intelligence to predict the future...

Have you ever thought that some animals are just that predictable? Even then, many animals are just disobedient, and mind reading just doesn't sound that...sane, for lack of a better word.
By the way, the only way we survived in this world is through our intelligence and our hands. We basically lost every primal instinct we needed as we became more advanced in society, since they were essentially worthless in an area without any natural predators.

 

[Corvus of the Black Night]

Have you ever thought that some animals are just that predictable? Even then, many animals are just disobedient, and mind reading just doesn't sound that...sane, for lack of a better word.

People are unbelievably predictable. Saying animals are the same is a dead argument.

But I think the disobedience is not lack of intelligence but rather an existence of free will. It's obvious sometimes that an animal understands what you're ordering it to do, but instead, it gives you the finger. Just a thought XD

By the way, the only way we survived in this world is through our intelligence and our hands. We basically lost every primal instinct we needed as we became more advanced in society, since they were essentially worthless in an area without any natural predators.

Although I don't mind your above comment, this is completely wrong. People not having basic instinct? Put your hand on a hot stove and tell me if you purposely leave it there, rather than unconsciously removing it.

We haven't lost our instincts at all. Although typically babies use more instinct than the rest of society, this kind of instinct is required for our species to survive. If babies didn't have the instinct to approach the nipple upon feeling it with its lips and suckle, for example, the human race probably wouldn't exist today. Even as adults, instinct still exists, such as the instinct to not ingest tainted food or to remove one's hand upon touching a hot stove or getting stung by a bee.

Since our instincts are an integrated part of our lives, we tend to forget and leave them unacknowledged.

It's true that animals also use instincts, but they probably don't live motorized minds, and might even, among their societies, have "good" and "bad" behavior. For example, wolves will scold their pups for trekking into territories that are unsafe, so that the wolf learns to not go into that area. Birds and many mammal species have similar "parent-to-child" behavior.

 

[PyrgusMalvae]

It really depends on your definition of intelligence, it's a sticky subject, but for the most part I believe that Humans have a greater capacity for reason and emotion than other animals.