Are Trappers Anti-Competitive?

[Anti]

The thread title says it all. Since Advance, trappers have been major players in many metagames because of their ability to break down specific Pokemon. Let's talk about them d00ds!

Trappers include:

Magnezone
Dugtrio
Wobbuffet
Gothitelle
Pursuit users
PROBOPASS!!!!!

Some basic questions that might come up:

Do you think trappers are anticompetitive? Elaborate.
If so, do you think that they should therefore be banned?
Is Pursuit anti-competitive? Is it distinct from Pokemon with a trapping ability?
How much does the scope of something's trapping ability (i.e. how Mag can trap a very small amount of Pokemon while Goth covers more) matter in determining this?
Is the presence of trappers good for the metagame? What positive and/or negative aspects do they bring?
Is Shed Shell Skarmory as soul-crushing for its users as BP is for its opponents?

And no, this isn't a "hey let's ban all this!" thread. It's an earnest question for discussion since switching is fundamental to the game--and to skillfully playing it, so breakers like Goth add a distinct element to the game that I think is worthy of discussion, even if you think the idea that they're bad for the game or anti-competitive is preposterous. At least to me, the issue seems a lot less black and white than something like SwagPlay so I'm curious what everyone thinks.

#COMEHOMELEBRON

 

[derv1205]

This is an interesting topic. Personally, I don't think any pokemon should be banned. Maybe some legendary pokemon that have ridiculous stats, but there is always a way around every pokemon. Yes it can be annoying not being able to switch your Pokemon but if you think that is going to happen you should be prepared for it and be ready for several situations. That is what makes a person a great trainer.
Newest example, Mega-Gengar. Amazing stats, and it does not let you switch out of battle unless you use Baton Pass. But, you can expect it and have your pokemon ready for different situations.
I think the fact that the pokemon you mentioned are not used too often on competitive battling is probably because people found ways around it so people had to change their strategy. And this happens all the time, that's when UU or NU pokemon start going up the scale. Because people find a way to use them to make serious damage.
Hopefully you understand what I'm trying to say haha. It's just an opinion, and to summarize, I don't think they are anticompetitive. Every pokemon has certain potential and it requires a good trainer to find it. :)

 

[MoxieInfinite]

People wanted to ban Dug in ADV because it trapped and killed so many things, mainly CM Offense teams(which is the reason most CM teams run P2 now). But you had ♥♥♥♥ like the mass DD/SD/CB teams who really don't mind it that much, and can set up easily on a choice-locked EQ.

Mag trapping Skarm in ADV was also a massive thing, but people are more positive about that one, due to how insanely good Skarm is in ADV(which is the reason most physical offense teams run Mag).

If it's uncompetititve? Nah, I dont know. Very interresting topic though, looking forward to more relpies.

 

[champagnepapi]

I think only the shadow tag users are up for debate as far as XY goes, the other 2 don't really trap a significant portion of the meta as it is. Anyways 'competitiveness' to me, has meant winning the game through tactics. A part of this would be weakening the counters to the pokrmon you've designated to win you the game. The tactical part of this is creating a scenario in which these pokes can be weakened, however shadow tag users, which trap everything except ghosts, shed shell and run away users undermine this. While gothitelle isnt as high caliber a trapper as m gengar, they can both easily come in and weaken or trap the pokrmon you need them too and facilitate a sweep for a teammate without much effort on the player's part. So because of this, their outstanding and usually difficult to stop, team support, I'd say theyre uncompetitive.

 

[Dark Azelf]

Ill break down what i want to say pretty much...

*Dugtrio is very limited in what it traps (see: grounded pokemon weak to its STAB move which leaves few and far between, its other moves are filler p much and you are kidding yourself if you say otherwise). Dugtrio is also very weak and there arent many relevant things in the current metagame it traps apart from Heatran and thats...like it? Its not like people use Blissey anymore as the "dominant" special wall either or garbage like Jirachi and Metagross sooo and its not like its beating things like MegaTar lol.

*Magnezone in the same vein in that it arguably doesnt really trap many relevant things now Dragons have been castrated offensively so who cares about trapping steels. It also doesnt trap Aegislash losing some utility in that regard. Again i can only think of Skarm and Ferrothorn who are even relevant in the current meta and i guess Scizor. Also Hidden Power base power nerf sucks for it so HP Fire doesnt actually KO Mega Scizor who also outspeeds it etc lol.

*Pursuit is strategic in that you have a good chance to thwart it. Stay in and get hit by a girly man weak 40bp move. You can also defend against it see: Using Reflect, Protect etc.

*Wobbuffet is only really useful against some offensive pokes (ill elaborate in a second) and choice users (Again limited in what it traps, notice the theme here?). It takes alot of skill to use effectively. Alot of offensive Pokemon overwhelm it simply because it relies on being passive to inflicting damage back via countercoat and cant take a pokemon out if you dont hit it. That means very common moves such as status, hazards, leech seed etc can just be spammed against it and Encore only has 8 PP so it cant lock you in forever. It can also be out predicted with massively powerful Pokemon. For example, expecting Mawile to SD so you Encore it and it hits you with a Play Rough for a 2hko. Against defensive teams without Support its useless. If something takes skill and support to use effectively i.e do its job as a trapper, its not broken.

*Probopass....lol

Now for the big one.

*Gothitelle i feel is broken. It can switch into MANY (read: most of the game) threats with its underated defenses. It can then either Trick a Scarf/Specs onto any defensive pokemon in the game and alot of offensive Pokemon and then cripple them for the rest of the match or target things with its WIDE coverage options and take them out with its decent special attack and possibly specs. It also breaks apart cores with ease and you cant even stop it by not attacking it like Wobb. Want to take out your opponents MegaVenusaur? Np. Want to Trick a Scarf onto Chansey and use Rest to struggle stall it? Np. Want to take out their Ferrothorn because it keeps laying hazards and you dont otherwise have a counter? Np. Infact, want to come in on and get +6+6? Np. This is noncompetitive in the sense it takes no skill and is almost as blind as Baton Pass. Lets face it, if you use Gothitelle to take out walls you dont have any skill as a team builder.

In a match you have 5 options.

Move
Move
Move
Move
Switch

Gothitelle take this down to one when it has used Trick with a Choice Item.

Move.

You cant status it because it will struggle stall you with Trick Scarf and Rest unlike Wobb (No Rest and Encore doesnt last forever and Wobb cant touch you if you dont hit it) and it can actually hit you HARD and take you out if you dont touch Goth. It also has the bulk to live more than meets the eye. Especially against defensive and bulky offensive teams and more than enough special attack to take out walls.

Pursuit is not a good argument for goth either. It needs to have killed something for your Pursuiter to come in unless you are psychic and double switch (lolpun) so its done its job on already taking out a Pokemon.

Lastly im gonna address "Wobb guarantees a free turn of set up" because it will probably come up. Honestly id rather take that than being Tricked into one move or losing a Pokemon for free.

Tl;Dr. Trick Choice item (possibly Rest) and offensive presence with little or no team support is what makes Goth broken and Wobb not.

Edit: Eviolite Gothorita is also broken, even more so in uu for the same reasons.

 

[Zeffy]

The only relevant trapper that is cheap and "anti" competitive is Gothitelle, because the others are very limited as to what they can trap and KO at the same time. Gothitelle can guarantee a trap and a KO when switched into a proper Pokemon, which is really cheap and lame.

 

[Anti]

Some of the non-Goth trappers might suck now, but since this is a broad discussion, I think considering how trappers affects gen3 (as Moxie alluded to) and gen4 (remember DragMag?) is important, especially since it considers the question in the context of more than just XY OU and includes more generations, metagames, etc. (That was my intent when including them, though I didn't make that clear. Probopass is an exception, obviously.)

Will post my opinion sooner or later

 

[CelticsPhan]

Mega Gengar and Gothitelle appear to be the only competitive trappers, the former being a genuine threat to our foolish ideal of "balance" in the meta. Gothitelle is bad, but it has its counters.

Except for players of lower tiers, there are no other trappers that are problematic. Setup-hazards work to the same effect OR WORSE (Spikes, Sneaky Pebbles, Spider Web) because the Pokemon switching in will be damaged by the hazards AND the next attack.

It's Pokemon like Galvantula, Skarmory and Deoxys-D that we should worry about rather than trappers.

 

[Dark Azelf]

Mega Gengar and Gothitelle appear to be the only competitive trappers, the former being a genuine threat to our foolish ideal of "balance" in the meta. Gothitelle is bad, but it has its counters.

Except for players of lower tiers, there are no other trappers that are problematic. Setup-hazards work to the same effect OR WORSE (Spikes, Sneaky Pebbles, Spider Web) because the Pokemon switching in will be damaged by the hazards AND the next attack.

It's Pokemon like Galvantula, Skarmory and Deoxys-D that we should worry about rather than trappers.

How does one counter something with Shadow Tag? Unless you double switch with psychic precision every time. It can also pick what it traps, exactly the same as Gengar. Actually Gothitelle is VERY similar to Gengar in that basically every wall in the game is at risk from it and so are alot of offensive mons are too. Using offensive trappers basically takes the skill of switching and strategy out of the game.

I also dont understand the bold. Hazards are NOTHING like trapping in that they can actually be defended against. Skarm etc also cannot trap struggle stall walls with Trick or eliminate things at will and actually takes skill to use. Deoxys-D is a suspect so i wont delve into that but Skarm etc are easily thwarted because we have things like Defog and Rapid Spin (good luck blocking mega Toise/Excadrill spin). Spider Web is also a joke of a move because nothing in the current meta even cares about it (think: Lati@s, Thundy, Landy, Talonflame, Rotom-W, most Aegislash/walls are already slow AF etc etc). Also giving Bisharp a FREE Swords Dance boost with Defiant every time it comes in is really dumb imo.

Also in lower tiers there is eviolite Gothorita which does the same thing as Gothitelle sooo. Its also bulkier. ;/

 

[Anti]

I think trapping has changed a lot since Team Preview was added in BW. I didn't really play in that metagame, but as someone who runs bulky teams that often have a potential Goth victim, it's nice to know that it's there. Personally, I think it adds a fun layer to the game, and the predictions and double switches can get pretty zany. Of course, I'm not a stall player, so it's a lot easier for me to enjoy that aspect of the game. If Goth can trap and kill four of your Pokemon and requires very little skill to effectively use, I can't blame you if you're annoyed with its presence.

I find it a lot more annoying in DP and especially in Advance (not like I've played that since a half decade ago, but whatever), where the very prospect of Dugtrio and Mag made you have to play differently. And in DP, with the rise of strong Pursuit trappers like Weavile (bad overall, but difficult to deny its trapping prowess), Tyranitar, and Scizor, that uncertainty was extended to a lot more Pokemon as Dug usage fell off. I don't like the idea that something can trap you without you knowing it's there. Maybe this belongs in a thread about Team Preview, but I think that it makes trappers more fun to play against when you know what you're up against. If your Latios gets Pursuited by Aeg, tough, but you knew it was there and could be carrying Pursuit. the only advanced warning you have pre-BW was metagame knowledge, which isn't exactly the same thing.

Anyway, regardless of how fun or dreadful they are to play against, I think they're pretty clearly uncompetitive, and I think D_A did a good job outlining why. I think the distinction between uncompetitive and broken is an important one. Double Team probably isn't broken (?), but it's definitely uncompetitive. I'd slot the inferior trappers (even PROBOPASS!!!!!!) there. I do agree that Goth is broken.

Besides the choice limitation that D_A talked about, I think Pokemon like Goth encourage the "hey, XY OU is way too team match-up reliant" reality that seems to get worse with each successive generation (and was probably exacerbated by the glut of borderline-broken but at the very least very threatening megas) that I think is somewhat natural, but not to this extent. Goth is just horrible against offense, but can take apart stall with anything competent to clean up its mess. A lot of Pokemon are significantly better vs. one end of the offense-defense spectrum than the other (both genies come to mind), but they also don't trap things. You can run niche stuff on stall to take out Landorus or at least lessen its impact. You can run Ground-type Scarfers like Excadrill and Garchomp to check Thundurus. But since Goth is by definition uncounterable, I think it's kind of a cop-out. Stallbreaking ability is a decent barometer of competitive skill, and Goth is an easy way out to break up strong defensive cores, just like BP was an easy way out against...well, most everything. I don't think it's as bad--Goth can only do so much and isn't near as uncompetitive or as broken as BP was (DING DONG THE WICKED WITCH IS DEAD), but I'd like to see it banned. I don't think it's a pressing problem like BP was, but again...I'm not a stall player. :)

As for past gens, DragMag was absurd and I do think Dugtrio is pretty uncompetitive in Advance. If the way teams are combatting trapping is Trace counter-trapping with Porygon2, then it might be a little much. Of course, as with the Mag/Skarm relationship Moxie discussed, trappers can keep difficult Pokemon in check (Dugtrio with Celebi/Tyranitar also comes to mind), but I'm not sure that's the best way for a metagame to balance itself. I can't speak with much authority on older gens though because I'm so far removed from them.

#FREEPROBOPASS

Also D_A, not going to disagree with most of what you're saying, but didn't you say in early XY that Mega Gengar wasn't broken? EXPLAIN YOSELF

 

[Dark Azelf]

Also D_A, not going to disagree with most of what you're saying, but didn't you say in early XY that Mega Gengar wasn't broken? EXPLAIN YOSELF

I can see why it was broken/noncompetitive dont get me wrong, just that it never did much against me and i got a "free" turn whilst it mega'd to send in a check to give me a heads up. It also didnt Trick a Choice item onto me. :( This was also when people didnt use things like Perish Trapping on it or Taunt/Pain Split/Wisp abusive sets and i used things like Dragon Tail Goodra etc (lol), but yeah.


Also back to the Goth subject, are smogon actually taking notice of this as of now or like just concentrating on Deo-S/D .....? I dont really know if the situation in that regards so if someone could enlighten me that would be great.