Atheist Alliance

[Shining Raichu]

Ugh really guys, again? Twice in two days we've had to bring H-staff in to clean up the mess. Get it together, Tyrone.

Just felt the need to point out that no one was at all concerned with my religious beliefs they just bashed me for not liking homosexuals

Nobody 'bashed' you for this. I called you out on a hatred that you admitted was baseless. I wasn't bashing you for not liking homosexuals, I was simply pointing out that it's silly to hate something without a reason. Which, by the way, it is.

I think Andy likes it more debate-y but I kinda wish it was a place where people questioning religion could come and discuss their feelings, that kind of thing.

Not true. When the club began it was intended just as you described... but the Other Clubs rules state that you're not allowed to prevent anybody from joining a group, which is tricky in the case of an Atheist club. I've always welcomed religious people to come in and discuss with us because the inclusive nature of the clubs forum says I have to. I welcome discussion but I don't like it being debatey; it just inevitably becomes that way and once the spiral starts there's little I can do to stop it.

Again, I welcome the religious people to come here and talk with us, but I disagree with the way that it's often done... with an "I've come to put you in your place" attitude. As though it's a matter of Holy duty and public service.

Wasn't there a club for Christians a while back? What happened with that?

It's currently in the great clubs heaven in the sky. It died out of lack of interest.

 

[F1refly]

Soooo........let's start up a new discussion. What are your takes on events depicted in the bible, for instance the Great Flood or When God Rained Down Fire on the Egyptians? Do you think they are made up or are actually real events that happened but people attributed a "divine" intervention sort of thing to it?

Also, for the kooks like me who dig the Ancient Aliens theory, do you think that the ark might have been an alien artifact?

 

[Esper]

I believe there have been big floods in the past - there is evidence of them in the geology and seabeds and so on - but floods, even big ones, are things we know happen so it's easy to believe in them. Rain of fire? I'm willing to believe that someone saw a volcano somewhere and the story of it got passed around and so the idea of fiery rain could easily have been embellished and attributed to something more.

But I'm not one to use the bible(s) as historical documents. Not that I'm against religious texts being used as documents, but the bible-as-published-today has been through too many rewrites and translations to be of much use. Even when you get back to the source you ought to back it up the anecdotal evidence with other records and, hopefully, some physical evidence.

 

[Livewire]

We have a literal deluge of evidence now (Sorry I couldn't help myself) that shows that a large flood did indeed hit the Mediterranean area around 8000 years ago. Funny.

You will notice around the Black Sea large clusters of cities and population centers that were last above water around 8000 B.C. The same is true in the oral traditions of many indigenous Native American tribes around the Great Lakes region in the U.S. and Canada. Notice how these stories originate from a time when the glaciers were receding and melting, those millions and million of gallons of water have to go somewhere.

People need to remember that the bible relies heavily on metaphor, simile and recycled symbolic imagery. The biblical flood myth is simply based off of an older Babylonian flood myth - The Epic of Gilgamesh. Which in all likelihood was based in part off of a real flood. But it was just that, a flood, not a divine act, but simply a misunderstood geologic process, like so many other instances like this.

 

[Snowdrop]

What's goin' awwwnnn! I haven't been here in a while!

I have absolutely no idea about the floods in the Bible except that I once watched a show that showed the tides of the sea falling and exposing the ground underneath during a certain season or something, which I guess was supposed to explain Moses parting the tides but I don't remember much.

 

[FrostPheonix]

I came here thinking of talking about space. I had this awesome thought of talking about Red Bull Stratos to prove it. But I guess I'm a bit late.

Well, there have been major floods. Science proves it. The only thing is that no one can prove a major flood as described in the Bible. But, correct me if I'm wrong, they can't disprove it either, right? So it's another case of belief.

And how would the ark be an alien artifact? Wouldn't it still be around if it were?

Ah, yeah, if you guys really think you just want to have the club be about Atheists and stuff, sure. I'll stay out if you want. And I suppose sometimes there is a kind of duty for us when we talk here. Christianity does include spreading the belief in the Bible. Some people try to do it, just not the way they should.

 

[F1refly]

And how would the ark be an alien artifact? Wouldn't it still be around if it were?

Let's think of the Ark of the covenant from a scientific view (Oops, just realised that I forgot to call it the Ark of the Covenant. Sorry, I just call it the ark and call the boat ark the Giant Boat that Saved Mankind and Animals and stuff). According to the Bible, any who ventured to close to it or opened the box died. It is possible in my mind, that the death people suffered could have been due to some sort of radiation. Wether it was merely a glowing rock that people found and though "Ooh, purty stone" or a Artifact from some bygone race that used nuclear power, we don't know yet. Who knows, maybe God was the King of Atlantis and possesed the power to Create and Destroy? I'm sounding more like one of those guys in the Tabloids :P

My opinion on the Great Flood is that it could have been a massive Tsunami of Humanity Destroying Proportions.

 

[FrostPheonix]

Let's think of the Ark of the covenant from a scientific view (Oops, just realised that I forgot to call it the Ark of the Covenant. Sorry, I just call it the ark and call the boat ark the Giant Boat that Saved Mankind and Animals and stuff). According to the Bible, any who ventured to close to it or opened the box died. It is possible in my mind, that the death people suffered could have been due to some sort of radiation. Wether it was merely a glowing rock that people found and though "Ooh, purty stone" or a Artifact from some bygone race that used nuclear power, we don't know yet. Who knows, maybe God was the King of Atlantis and possesed the power to Create and Destroy? I'm sounding more like one of those guys in the Tabloids :P

My opinion on the Great Flood is that it could have been a massive Tsunami of Humanity Destroying Proportions.

Oh. You were talking about the Ark of the Covenant? That makes more sense :).
I suppose, from a POV aside from Christianity that makes sense. Although, something that emitted radiation wouldn't kill instantly, and if it had that powerful radiation a curtain won't protect the priests, would it? But I think it sounds cool. And also, it wasn't ventured close, I'm sure it was touched. People had to move it, and they used sticks to hoist it up without touching it. it had these holes or something to put sticks through and so carry it. But I wonder, what else do you think it could be? I seriously can't think of anything. Poison like the poison dart frog?

 

[Barrels]

I came here thinking of talking about space. I had this awesome thought of talking about Red Bull Stratos to prove it. But I guess I'm a bit late.

I completely want to hear this argument. :D If you get a minute, VM me with it! I love me some arguments that use grounded, earthly concepts to explain bigger things.

Well, there have been major floods. Science proves it. The only thing is that no one can prove a major flood as described in the Bible. But, correct me if I'm wrong, they can't disprove it either, right? So it's another case of belief.

*puts on philosophical hat*

Ah, but can you prove anything? Or disprove it, for that matter? Let's say I want to prove that I don't have a tail. I cannot observe any tail; it would be rather awkward when I sat down if I did, and I don't experience any such discomfort; and really there's no evidence to suggest that my tail exists.

So if someone asked you to prove that they didn't have a tail, those are the types of things you'd point to. And if they didn't accept it – if they said that their tail was invisible, intangible and retracted whenever they sat down – you'd think they were an idiot.

But here's the thing – you haven't proved that they don't have a tail. As long as there's some other possibility, we should strictly remain in doubt – and after all, it's possible that their tail is invisible/intangible/retractable. We can't prove it isn't. We can say it's highly unlikely, of course we can – but we could be wrong. So we haven't proven anything.

The logical conclusion to this line of thought is Descartes' famous statement: 'I think, therefore I am'. Having doubted every belief he held – because after all, a deceitful demon could be tricking him into thinking trees were green when in fact they had purple spots, and we can't prove that such a demon doesn't exist – the only thing Descartes felt he could be sure of was that he existed. Because, if he didn't, who would be doubting his existence? (This is clearer in the extended version of the statement: 'I doubt, therefore I think, therefore I am'.)

I'll wrap this up. You said that 'the only thing is that no one can prove a major flood as described in the Bible'. Absolutely. Then you say, 'but, correct me if I'm wrong, they can't disprove it either, right? So it's another case of belief'.

Well, yes, but we don't tend to think of most things that way! If someone asked you, 'do you believe in cats?' you'd think they were being irritating on purpose. But strictly speaking, belief is cats is just as uncertain as belief in a flood:

'The only thing is that no one can prove that cats exist. But, correct me if I'm wrong, they can't disprove it either, right? So it's another case of belief.'

But would you say, in casual conversation, 'cats exist' or 'I believe that cats exist'? I'm betting on the former. And so we have to ask ourselves - does religion deserves special consideration? Are we justified in saying that the simple fact that you can't disprove something makes it a reasonable belief? Or is arguing 'well, you can't disprove the flood!' just as silly as arguing, 'well, you can't disprove my tail!'

Ah, yeah, if you guys really think you just want to have the club be about Atheists and stuff, sure. I'll stay out if you want. And I suppose sometimes there is a kind of duty for us when we talk here. Christianity does include spreading the belief in the Bible. Some people try to do it, just not the way they should.

I love having you here, personally! :D It's great to be able to chat about religion with someone who knows the ins and outs better than I do. What does everyone else think?

 

[AChipOffTheOldBrock]

Ah, yeah, if you guys really think you just want to have the club be about Atheists and stuff, sure. I'll stay out if you want. And I suppose sometimes there is a kind of duty for us when we talk here. Christianity does include spreading the belief in the Bible. Some people try to do it, just not the way they should.

Yeah, Ill leave too if you guys want. Its not right that they force you to act like you want certain groups of people in your club if you dont. You should at least be allowed to discourage non-atheists from joining. I thought this club would be less like a science club and more for philosophical and religious discussion, but alas.

 

[Ivysaur]

For everyone who says "I can't prove X but you can't disprove it, so it's a matter of belief", I'd like you to read this article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot

It pretty much says that you can say the most craziest absurd thing ever and claim that people can't disprove it as long as you make enough excuses for it (ie: it's invisible! people haven't looked well enough for it! all traces of it were erased!). That's why usually the logical thing is trying to explain why X exists, not claiming it just does and challenging everyone else to prove you wrong.

 

[AChipOffTheOldBrock]

For everyone who says "I can't prove X but you can't disprove it, so it's a matter of belief", I'd like you to read this article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot

It pretty much says that you can say the most craziest absurd thing ever and claim that people can't disprove it as long as you make enough excuses for it (ie: it's invisible! people haven't looked well enough for it! all traces of it were erased!). That's why usually the logical thing is trying to explain why X exists, not claiming it just does and challenging everyone else to prove you wrong.

Ive read that before. Thats like the flying spaghetti monster thing that smart alek middle school kids put as their religion on facebook. But, sometimes X does exist, or sometimes its better to believe X exists than to deny it. Believing in X sure makes a lot of people happy.

 

[Ivysaur]

But, sometimes X does exist, or sometimes its better to believe X exists than to deny it. Believing in X sure makes a lot of people happy.

That doesn't make it any more logical.

And sure, maybe there is a teacup between the Earth and Mars, but it's nonsensical to claim it does exist because nobody has disproven its existence. Even if it turns out it does exist, claiming it does because nobody can prove it makes it possible to claim virtually anything ever, even the most absurd nonsensical thing you can possibly think of. The Smurfs? Nobody has proven they don't exist!

And about the "it makes people happy", that's called "utilitarianism", and it's a philosophical take on the world that says that it's not worth considering whether a idea is right or wrong, but their only measure it's how happy they make the overall population. But, of course, it can be misconstructed horribly. After all, having one slave would make me and my family pretty happy as we wouldn't have to cook, take care of the house, etc. But I don't think the slave would be very happy about it, right? Who cares, it's 4 people being happy VS 1 being miserable. Majority wins! I'm sure the people who can't say they don't believe in any god because it predjuices people against them and makes it harder for them to be accepted in most countries aren't happy about people believing in X. And, again, I can think Communism or Fascism are awesome if it makes me happy, but I don't think that makes them any less wrong.

 

[AChipOffTheOldBrock]

That doesn't make it any more logical.

And sure, maybe there is a teacup between the Earth and Mars, but it's nonsensical to claim it does exist because nobody has disproven its existence. Even if it turns out it does exist, claiming it does because nobody can prove it makes it possible to claim virtually anything ever, even the most absurd nonsensical thing you can possibly think of. The Smurfs? Nobody has proven they don't exist!

And about the "it makes people happy", that's called "utilitarianism", and it's a philosophical take on the world that says that it's not worth considering whether a idea is right or wrong, but their only measure it's how happy they make the overall population. But, of course, it can be misconstructed horribly. After all, having one slave would make me and my family pretty happy as we wouldn't have to cook, take care of the house, etc. But I don't think the slave would be very happy about it, right? Who cares, it's 4 people being happy VS 1 being miserable. Majority wins! I'm sure the people who can't say they don't believe in any god because it predjuices people against them and makes it harder for them to be accepted in most countries aren't happy about people believing in X. And, again, I can think Communism or Fascism are awesome if it makes me happy, but I don't think that makes them any less wrong.

Whats wrong with believing something illogical if it makes you happy but doesnt hurt anyone else? And the most logical answer isnt always the correct one.

 

[93Aiwass]

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.​

Sure why not? I'm a Thelemite but an atheist as well.

What are your opinions on subjects such as same-sex marriage, abortion, the death penalty, and so on? Why?
I'm for same-sex marriage and abortion simply because there is no rational reason why we should not allow same-sex couples to marry... add to the fact that I am a lesbian woman and a feminist and I think it would be kinda hypocritical to be against marriage equality though I'm still looking for my chosen and preferred. As for abortion, again - why not? It's important to extend abortion rights to all women because there is no rational reason to be against abortion and it is a pragmatic way of making sure that women can choose whether they want to have a child or not.

As for the death penalty... I'm fundamentally against that because it would be kind of hypocritical to be in a society that decries murder, yet would murder those that violate that rule. It does not make sense to me.

Love is the Law, Love under Will.​

 

[AChipOffTheOldBrock]

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.​

Sure why not? I'm a Thelemite but an atheist as well.

What are your opinions on subjects such as same-sex marriage, abortion, the death penalty, and so on? Why?
I'm for same-sex marriage and abortion simply because there is no rational reason why we should not allow same-sex couples to marry... add to the fact that I am a lesbian woman and a feminist and I think it would be kinda hypocritical to be against marriage equality though I'm still looking for my chosen and preferred. As for abortion, again - why not? It's important to extend abortion rights to all women because there is no rational reason to be against abortion and it is a pragmatic way of making sure that women can choose whether they want to have a child or not.

As for the death penalty... I'm fundamentally against that because it would be kind of hypocritical to be in a society that decries murder, yet would murder those that violate that rule. It does not make sense to me.

Love is the Law, Love under Will.​

Im not a very experienced or well liked member of this club but I'll welcome you anyway. :) Cool philosophy!

 

[93Aiwass]

Im not a very experienced or well liked member of this club but I'll welcome you anyway. :) Cool philosophy!

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.​

S'okay, I'm not very well liked either. Well, except in the Women's Studies dept, they love me there. ^_^

And thanks, that's what attracted me to Thelema in the first place. How can I not like a philosophy that had a journal with a subtitle "The methods of science - the aim of religion"? :cheeky:

Love is the Law, Love under Will.​

 

[Shining Raichu]

Ah, yeah, if you guys really think you just want to have the club be about Atheists and stuff, sure. I'll stay out if you want. And I suppose sometimes there is a kind of duty for us when we talk here. Christianity does include spreading the belief in the Bible. Some people try to do it, just not the way they should

Yeah, Ill leave too if you guys want. Its not right that they force you to act like you want certain groups of people in your club if you dont. You should at least be allowed to discourage non-atheists from joining. I thought this club would be less like a science club and more for philosophical and religious discussion, but alas.

I'm not asking anybody to leave, you are all still welcome here. But this is a club for atheists so there is a skew, even if only in numbers. Because of this, all I'm saying is that you can't expect the same fair shake you'd get in a religious discussion in Other Chat, because there is a certain 'home field advantage' in this thread. That's not to say that we're intentionally ganging up on you, just that you should have known by the name of the club what you were getting yourselves into.

Sure why not? I'm a Thelemite but an atheist as well.

Welcome! I gotta ask the obvious question... what is a Thelemite? I might be the lone dense person here but I've never heard of that before lol

Whats wrong with believing something illogical if it makes you happy but doesnt hurt anyone else? And the most logical answer isnt always the correct one.

The thing is though, it does hurt other people. I don't think there would be even half as much as debate about religion in this world if it didn't hurt anybody else. If it could just keep to itself in its own self-contained bubble and not disturb those who have no interest in it, it'd be fine... but it has proven time and time again that it cannot. It has caused wars that have killed countless people and driven people to acts of terrorism that have done the same; it's been a contributing factor to many suicides in high schools alone; and it's a particular bane in the existence of the gay people who disgust you for no apparent reason. Not to mention the victims of clergy abuse, the... I could go on, but the list is too long and I don't like making tl;drs.

The point is, the belief in God and the structures that have been created around it do hurt a lot of people. And what's it all for, in the end? Peace of mind that life doesn't end? Is the sketchy promise of an afterlife really worth the torment it has caused people in the life we know for sure we have? It's unfathomable to me.

And then there's the potential for future damage. How many more people have to kill themselves or else be killed by others, how many more people have to live through any of the various forms of torment created by religion before people will realise that the book to which they so desperately cleave causes more problems than it solves?

 

[AChipOffTheOldBrock]

I'm not asking anybody to leave, you are all still welcome here. But this is a club for atheists so there is a skew, even if only in numbers. Because of this, all I'm saying is that you can't expect the same fair shake you'd get in a religious discussion in Other Chat, because there is a certain 'home field advantage' in this thread. That's not to say that we're intentionally ganging up on you, just that you should have known by the name of the club what you were getting yourselves into.



Welcome! I gotta ask the obvious question... what is a Thelemite? I might be the lone dense person here but I've never heard of that before lol



The thing is though, it does hurt other people. I don't think there would be even half as much as debate about religion in this world if it didn't hurt anybody else. If it could just keep to itself in its own self-contained bubble and not disturb those who have no interest in it, it'd be fine... but it has proven time and time again that it cannot. It has caused wars that have killed countless people and driven people to acts of terrorism that have done the same; it's been a contributing factor to many suicides in high schools alone; and it's a particular bane in the existence of the gay people who disgust you for no apparent reason. Not to mention the victims of clergy abuse, the... I could go on, but the list is too long and I don't like making tl;drs.

The point is, the belief in God and the structures that have been created around it do hurt a lot of people. And what's it all for, in the end? Peace of mind that life doesn't end? Is the sketchy promise of an afterlife really worth the torment it has caused people in the life we know for sure we have? It's unfathomable to me.

And then there's the potential for future damage. How many more people have to kill themselves or else be killed by others, how many more people have to live through any of the various forms of torment created by religion before people will realise that the book to which they so desperately cleave causes more problems than it solves?

Well of course I wasnt talking about christianity. I was talking about a hypothetical illogical belief that made someone happy and didnt hurt anyone else. Heres the wikipedia page for Thelema. Also, assuming your a man, dont you find the idea of two gay man having sex disgusting? And most gay people I have met, I would not like them if they were straight. Sorry if Im not too coherent, Im high. If your allowed to say that here. If not then Im not high.

 

[Golurks Were Meant to Fly]

It's about time I joined this! Woooooooooooo atheism!

What are your opinions on subjects such as same-sex marriage, abortion, the death penalty, and so on? Why?
Same-sex marriage? Go ahead! Why would I be against something that makes two people happy? As for abortion, I'm pro-choice. In my opinion, it's the mother's choice, as the baby won't feel pain/isn't really a baby yet when abortion is still an available option. I am against the death penalty, however. Since I don't believe in an afterlife, cutting someone's only chance at the world short seems horrible to me. Even if they've done terrible things, they still deserve the one chance they have. That's the idealistic version of my view on it. In all actuality, I believe this up to a point, but...but there are people like Hitler.

Well of course I wasnt talking about christianity. I was talking about a hypothetical illogical belief that made someone happy and didnt hurt anyone else. Heres the wikipedia page for Thelema. Also, assuming your a man, dont you find the idea of two gay man having sex disgusting? If not go watch a video of a guy getting rammed and tell me that isnt disgusting. And most gay people I have met, I would not like them if they were straight. Sorry if Im not too coherent, Im high. If your allowed to say that here. If not then Im not high.

As we all know, Andy is extremely anti-gay. He even supplies churches with their facts about how dangerous being a homosexual is, and why it should be illegal. He's an inspiration to us all! *sobs from inspiration*

(Okay, I apologize for the extreme sarcasm, but it felt somewhat warranted/I'm just kidding :P)

Anyway... Here's what I don't get. You say, "Whats wrong with believing something illogical if it makes you happy but doesn't hurt anyone else?"

So why is something that is completely logical, makes people happy and doesn't hurt anyone else (I'm referring to gay marriage here, presuming you're against gay marriage since you seem to be against gay sex (if not sorry for this little rant)) not okay by you? I guess I can't say it's hypocritical, since they're slightly different ideas, but your ideology confuses me a bit. If you're okay with potentially lying to someone or a group of people or society, just to make them happy, then why aren't you okay with - just letting people be happy, without criticism?

And furthermore, the problem with believing in something illogical just to be happy... well while they say ignorance is bliss, it's still ignorance. And ignorance is dangerous to the ignorant person, everyone else, and well, the world. :/