Competitive Battling Chat

[flamehaze94]

I actually laddered my first ever Wifi UU match just earlier today and it was against a dude ranked in the top 50 0_o. The variation was something like +91, -2 or something riduculous. Since I had no idea how UU works, I decided to throw in some of my favorite Pokemon. The team ended up have 3 Sucker Punch users with 5/6 of them having LO. Needless to say... through a combination of luck, skill, and whim I managed to secure victory! SubRhyperior curbstomped everything after his Bronzong died. I kinda feel bad for him though ;_;

So yeah, UU's suprisingly a fun metagame (not better than Ubers though ;D). I'll be playing it more often after I learn the ropes first.

This part doesn't really have anything to do with UU, but I've seen A LOT more double dragons + Magnezone offensive cores lately (thanks PK...). And Haxorus is getting some use and I've been on the recieving end of CB Rivalry Outrage before... ouch. Not that they're common or anything, just they're around.

 

[Spinosaurus]

^BRONZONG IS UU????????!!!!!!???

And lol, flamehaze, I should totally play you in ubers. It's so fun. I suck at it though, and I want a good team-mate for Groudon other than Ho-Oh. (maybe reshiram but idk)

 

[flamehaze94]

That was me on the Beta server. They have a more active Ubers ladder than Smogon's which is why I'm there more now.

Giratina-O is a good partner for Groudon, since it beats Forretress and can priority Shadow Sneak to kill Deoxys-A and Mewtwo that threaten Groudon. It's also a pretty ok switch in to non-Specs Kyogre. Palkia is generally an awesome partner too. Groudon + Scarfkia beats every single Rayquaza there is. It can also abuse Rain in case Kyogre shows up and can be your primary switch to sponge Specs Water Spout.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Oh, I was already using Giratina. Not Giratina-O though, but since I got rid of Forretress and Spikes with Tentacruel I guess I could use Giratina-O. I guess I'll try Scarf Palkia, but I already have Ho-Oh as a scarfer. Maybe replace Zekrom with Scarf Palkia and use standard Ho-Oh? idk i thought scarf Ho-Oh was pretty dumb anyway because of stealth rock despite rapid spin. :(

 

[Spinosaurus]

Guys, I'm sorry if I annoy some people with this, but Thundurus really is starting to be a pain.

Throughout all the battles that I've had with people utilizing Thundurus, I guess it's not so bad if you set up on a previous Pokemon and then attack thundurus for a possible OHKO or something. Like, for example, with me utilizing a Scizor, I believe a +2 or a +4 Bullet Punch(I can't really remember) is enough to at least 2HKO Thundurus? It's not really that bulky, assuming nobody puts Def or that many HP EVs on it, so.. .___.;

Well, I don't really see many Thundurus to be honest but I usually let scarfers deal with them. Chomp is banned, but Terrakion and Landorus are both good scarf users. Without Taunt, Thundurus can have problems against walls like Blissey and Porygon 2 but if you don't have Focus Blast then it has a problem against TTar. Also, I'm pretty sure Latias can take a Hidden Power Ice in the face easily and deal damage with STAB Dragon Pulse. Excadrill can also OHKO with Rock Slide after SR. idk i have no knowledge with Thundurus. :(

 

[dreyko]

another thing to watch out for is a drizzle team with thundurus using thunder because thunder has 100% accuracy in the rain and it deals a lot more damage than t-bolt.
and with tornadus the most common things I've seen are tailwind users, sub stallers and the flying gem and acrobatics combo

 

[dreyko]

I suppose, but Rain Dance teams are primarily used in the UU tier right? I've never really faced one as far as the OU tier is concerned. The OU tier is more or less concerned with centralizing teams around Thundurus or possibly Tyranitar, along with Blissey here and there, along with Jellicent and Ferrothorn, I suppose.

i forgot about tiers. im kinda new to the competitive battling scene so i don't really know what belongs in what tier.

 

[dreyko]

Oh! That's not a problem then. ^^; There's a list on smogon that shows what belongs on what tier here, which should also give you a better idea on what Pokemon to use whenever you're building a team and whatnot. When it comes to weather teams however, I believe most of them are primarily utilized in the UU tier, at least as far as Rain and Sun are concerned? Sandstorm teams are mostly OU, if I'm correct, due to Tyranitar being in charge of that.

In case you didn't know though: UU is underused. The Pokemon utilized in this tier aren't bad whatsoever, they're just...used less than the those than are OU(OverUsed). It really depends on which tier you really want to play in though. I heard Staraptor is quite the big threat in UU, while in OU, people would have to deal with T-Tar, Thundurus and friends.

ok thanks for the link =) i will definitely check out smogon so that i can be more informed on competitive battling.

 

[Vrai]

With the Thundurus' that I've faced, only one or two had Nasty Plot(in which caused me to be in big trouble) and others just had the standard Thunderbolt or Focus Blast and what have you. I've only faced a handful of Landorus, which wasn't a problem because Rotom-W was my check for that, and I...rarely face any Tornadus, if anything.

And isn't it strange that I don't encounter Terrakion/Cobalion/Virizion yet? .___.; I would imagine them to be quite difficult to beat.

Thundurus is usually... ehh, well, Thundurus is one of those Pokemon that's easier to revenge than it is to check solidly. It can get difficult to predict, especially since we don't have Scarf Garchomp to come in on obvious Thunderbolts and scare it out. It's another point where Mamoswine is just really really damn useful - LO Ice Shard OHKOs, I believe. It's also really really important to get up rocks so it's not so easy for them to come in and then just Volt Switch their way back out.

Nah, probably not that strange at the musketeer trio. Terrakion is such priority bait that very few people can use it effectively and when they do it's hard to do so - though it is a fantastic Choice item user. Both Choice Band and Choice Scarf are very good on it. Cobalion is hardly used at all because its base 129 stat (Terrakion's is Attack, Virizion's is Special Defense) isn't nearly as useful as the other two. Virizion is actually the one with the biggest niche - its typing lends itself to be a great bulky water check in general, absorbing hits from literally every bulky water and then spamming Calm Mind in their face. Regardless, it's generally not used as much because it's still really frail defensively (from the physical aspect). I dunno, I'm just not really that surprised that you don't see them that much.

 

[dreyko]

Also, remember one thing: Nobody's really that good when they first start off. I know, it has definitely happened to me. Being the one that constantly loses matches and whatnot, it really does help me reflect on what things my team is missing, what I'm doing wrong, and stuff like that. Remember that in this metagame(and pretty much competitive battling in general), prediction is a huge thing, it can really make or break a match for you.

Believe me, it's happened to me a lot of times. ><;

I've done some battles without tiers before but I've never done a battle with designated tiers. i guess with tiers you really have to think about what pokemon you use because you cant just use whatever you like.

 

[Vrai]

I've done some battles without tiers before but I've never done a battle with designated tiers. i guess with tiers you really have to think about what pokemon you use because you cant just use whatever you like.

Yes, definitely! Remember, usage really says a lot about a Pokémon - people like to use the good ones. If a Pokémon's usage is really really high it's probably really really good. Therefore, in OverUsed, you have to consider mostly top-tier Pokémon or else you won't have as big of a chance to win. This is why tiers exist, mostly: so you can use the Pokémon that are less-than-perfect in battles with other Pokémon of the same quality. But yeah, with tiers the game completely changes - when you're playing OU, there are threats you have to deal with that aren't in UU because they aren't allowed. But when you're playing UU, the threats you have to deal with are completely different than OU and thus a lot of different Pokémon are popular. It is, in my opinion, one of the coolest parts of competitive battling. The metagames (as in, the metagame of OU and of UU) develop entirely separately from each other even though the majority of the Pokémon in each are usable in the other.

Well, as far as my own team is concerned, I think I would have a bit of trouble if anything trying to deal with that trio. D: That's why I would be a bit intimidated if anything if I were to face them.

Dragonite is also another one, but I think it's the same as Thundurus: It's a heck of a lot easier to revenge kill, but BP Scizor more often than not really does take care of it with SR up.

Well, carrying strong physical priority is enough for the two common ones. Virizion faints easy from a Scizor Bullet Punch - same with Terrakion. Outspeeding them is also fairly useful - Lati@s can outrun Virizion and smash it with Psyshock. Terrakion is a little harder since it can spam Rock Polish, but again it's a lot easier to revenge with Mach Punch, Aqua Jet, Bullet Punch, etc. Mamoswine Ice Shard even OHKOs after a few defense drops from Close Combat.

Dragonite is a little harder because of Multi-Scale. Icicle Spear and Double Chop are probably the easiest ways to break it, although Mamo's Icicle Crash and Specs Latios' Draco Meteor outright OHKO those with little bulk investment anyway. There are other ones too but Multi-Scale is what makes Nite really effective.

 

[wolf]

so i thought this would be an interesting topic: what do you think is the biggest change from 4th gen OU to 5th gen? i assume it could be anything, to an extent. seeing as one could say all of the 5th gen pokemon or dream world abilities, you may only reply with one pokemon/ability/item/etc (or weather) that you think changed the metagame the most.

 

[.Aero]

Definitely weather. It's caused a lot of issues when it comes to tiering and banning threats. I guess Dream World in general, since that's what started it. Other things from Dream World that I feel are notable (besides Ninetales and Toed) are Mirror Bounce Espeon, Multi Scale Dragonite, and Sheer Force Nidoking (although he's less noticeable). I personally really like it, because it keeps us away from the "spam dragons/steels" that Gen 4 became with Platinum, which was honestly the most boring thing to play.

 

[Vrai]

Can I just say Dream World? It's given a lot of Pokémon new life, like Espeon, Dragonite, Politoed, Ninetales... while some of them aren't useful at all, new abilities for old Pokémon can completely change how effective they are (in the case of say Politoed) or just like making them this much better like Mamoswine and Thick Fat. AND THEN you have things like Regenerate/ion (I can never remember what it is) Slowbro/Tangrowth - those abilities made those Pokémon much much much better. And there are still things yet to be released - Ditto breaking the revenge-killing game, anyone? I dunno, I think the Dream World totally changed our perspectives on why exactly some things are good, and how other things just need that liiiiittle nudge in an ability or a moveset or something to make it great.

 

[Dark Azelf]

Doesn't Whimisicott stop both those threats with Prankster Sleep Powder/whatever move against them?

Magic Bounce Espeon is a staple on SmashPass teams as it stops 90% of PHazing along with Sub Gorebyss, this includes Whimsicott (who doesnt get Sleep Powder btw :P). Haze and Perish Song are the only things that stop you getting swept and you know its bullcrap when even Offensive teams have to use them. :/ Scarfers also wont work as the most common smash receivers outrun them easily.

Im actually going to nominate Smeargle, Gorebyss and Huntail OR Espeon next round because smashpassing is unable to be banned (even though it received a MASS amount of nominations) as its "too complex" so those pokes are gonna have to go to prevent this bs lol.

@ Garchomp/Blaziken alt abilities in OU: Cant do it as its a massive double standard if we let chomp back and not Blaze and too complex. Which is silly imo. If it improves the game, why not do it, even if it is "2 complex" ?

Speaking of "too complex" arguments, anyone else think this only applies when you have an exceedingly small brain ? "ONOES, BLAZE BLAZIKEN IS ALLOWED BUT SPEED BOOST ISNT ?!?!?! MY BRAIN CANNOT FATHOM THIS AAAAA" lol ~~

I suppose, but Rain Dance teams are primarily used in the UU tier right? I've never really faced one as far as the OU tier is concerned.

Noooo, in OU Rain Teams are pretty much the most common thing you'll face along with SS/Sun and SmashPassing (at least higher up the ladder).

Anywho, Thundurus counters; Unaware Quagsire, Swampert, SP.Def Blissey, P2 (Eviolite and Priority Traced T-Wave ftw), Sp.Def Jirachi and electrics (Vire, Eelektross and Raikou etc) seem to be the best things that check it. Anything faster such as Scarfers work wonders. As always the amazing Mamoswine proves to be an awesome switch into it.

The biggest change; imo is the fall of Heavy Stall. Its literally impossible to do now after it dominating for 3 gens. Whilst stall still exists in some forms (semi stall, elf stall etc) your classic Skarm, Bliss, Hippow stuff is extremely hard to do now.

 

[Vrai]

Speaking of "too complex" arguments, anyone else think this only applies when you have an exceedingly small brain ? "ONOES, BLAZE BLAZIKEN IS ALLOWED BUT SPEED BOOST ISNT ?!?!?! MY BRAIN CANNOT FATHOM THIS AAAAA" lol ~~

....it sure seems like it. I really dunno why complex bans aren't allowed. But at the same time I kinda get it because we could just as easily say that uhhh [insert_uber_mon] isn't really broken if you take away X stab move(s) and whatever. There's a point where complex banning just becomes modifying all of the Pokemon and that just kinda takes... well, it feels like it removes the essence of the game if everything is on the exact same level ground. I don't really want to play a match where everything is absolutely perfectly even - that ruins the variety of the game. I know I'm taking it to extremes here but people are technically right about the slippery slope imo - while not being able to complex ban this or that sounds stupid, it's better in the long run I think because when we complex ban something we're essentially modifying that Pokemon so that it becomes suitable for the metagame. And if we continually do that, everything will just be modified to the point that... well, everything will just be on equal terms.

I dunno if that made complete sense but that's my opinion on it.

 

[champagnepapi]

To bring up a seperate topic..

Don't you hate it when you play a few challenge cups here and there and your opponent just so happens to have a flipping Genesect?

I hate that thing so hard. >>

Coming from someone who used to ladder on Mysidia, this thing is a behemoth, regardless of tier. The Download boosted U-Turns or Special Attacks destroy pretty much everything, Blissey included [see U-Turn]. The only way to effectively beat it is to 2HKO with a powerful earthquake or outspeed it and hit it with a Fire Attack, which Scarf Infernape is probably the only thing capable of doing that. The fact that Scarf Infernape was even brought up implies it's certainly broken and I'd like to see it promptly banned upon release.

 

[Dark Azelf]

Yeah id like to see Genesect banned. Heatran and Chansey are the only thing that really walls it well tbh. :/ Though i doubt Heatran is going to want to take Douse Drive Techno Blasts or even Download T-Bolts. ~~

 

[champagnepapi]

Keldeo is another Pokemon who I'd like to see banned. 2 of the 4 types that hit it for super effective damage [Electric, Psychic] are primarily comprised of special moves, which can easily be absorbed after a few Calm Minds. Secret Sword makes Blissey and Chansey susceptible to its attacks, so the list of Pokemon that wall it is narrowed down to Cresselia and maybe a few others that I'm forgetting, as I type this.

 

[Vrai]

Pssssh, I use Psyshock for Keldeo. :)