Crediting People for Rips

[KitsuneKouta]

Even if you don't post, please vote.
You opinions, even if not spelled out, are still important.
​

I dug around the forums a bit, and couldn't find a thread that was specifically targeted at this topic. I've read the "Stealing" thread and some of the takes on rips, but that's not what I'm getting at here. It's about what comes after.

Assuming that ripping is OK, what do you think about people asking for credit for their rips? I realize that someone being very insistent or demanding for credit can be a bit of a turn off, but that's actually a totally separate issue here. So let's look at something else.

This will sound off topic at first, but it's to make a point: many people are making Pokemon games here. Pokemon is not an original idea. Despite this fact, people will claim a game as their own work. They didn't invent Pokemon, in many (not all) cases they didn't create any original sprites for them, the vast majority of the scripts were already given out by poccil, and most of the game mechanics are based on the official games. Then there's the graphics and audio, which for the majority of games are just rips from the official games. How can a person claim a game as their own work? Simple: it's the work they put into it. Otherwise, the only thing anyone making a game could claim credit for is the scenario, custom graphics/audio (if applicable), and custom scripts (if applicable). Not the actual game. Of course, I do believe people should be credited for their games, BECAUSE of the work they put into it. Do you see where this is going yet?

When people rip resources, it requires work. If you rip a tree or some grass or something, you probably wouldn't ask for credit since there was very little work involved and little to even be credited for. However, when someone rips and compiles tilesets or several songs and sound effects that may not be easy to rip for various reasons, why shouldn't they be given credit? I've heard some say that they always credit people when they nicely ask for it but make it optional, and the reason is usually something along the lines of "it's the right thing to do" or something. However, work is work. Consider this: work and money (or rewards) are interchangeable. You work, you get paid. You pay someone, they work, or you get something that was the result of someone's work. When either of these terms are violated, it's theft. It doesn't matter if you're flipping patties or managing a corporation, work is work. You get paid (rewarded). When someone puts work into a game, they get recognition for it, and gain claim over whatever original material was in it. When someone rips resources for a game, why shouldn't they get the recognition for their work that they ask for? They've saved you time and work, both of which are valuable.

 

[thepsynergist]

I personally don't think so. They didn't make the sprites, Nintendo did. All they did was access them and give them to people.

 

[KitsuneKouta]

I personally don't think so. They didn't make the sprites, Nintendo did. All they did was access them and give them to people.

The point I was wanting to make isn't who made it, it's the work involved. poccil made the starter kit, not any of us (though CNG is working on it), so 80% of our own games aren't even ours. But, it takes hours of mapping (with tiles made by someone else), scripting (usually with input from others), story writing (which also generally get input from others), and a lot of thinking (probably the one thing that is nearly 100% original). So I'm talking about credit for the work put into doing something, not who did or did not make it.

 

[Conan Edogawa]

You have a really good point here, but my personal opinion varies on each specific rip or project. Looking at pokemon (since it's a commonality between us all) the difficulty of ripping tiles varies between games. Before I dive deeper, in this scenario the ripper says credit is optional. I usually don't give credit for rips from the tile based generation, because it's as easy as loading a rom and cutting apart a screenshot. Of course if it's an entire tileset I'll credit them, but it doesn't seem necessary for a few tiles that I would've ripped myself had I not seen them on the internet. But, when we're talking about the Ds generation of games I always give credit regardless of the rippers request. Making tiles from 3D models is not nearly as quick a process as the above, and in almost all cases requires touching up and even scratch spriting. In that scenario the ripper has to spend time on each piece, and as a reward, for lack of a better term, I credit them as they deserve. The way I see it, credit should be given when the product takes some time to create and perfect. And like people said in the stealing thread, they're essentially stealing the pieces of the games for us, so unless they had to put a genuine effort into it I see no need to credit them.

 

[KitsuneKouta]

You have a really good point here, but my personal opinion varies on each specific rip or project. Looking at pokemon (since it's a commonality between us all) the difficulty of ripping tiles varies between games. Before I dive deeper, in this scenario the ripper says credit is optional. I usually don't give credit for rips from the tile based generation, because it's as easy as loading a rom and cutting apart a screenshot. Of course if it's an entire tileset I'll credit them, but it doesn't seem necessary for a few tiles that I would've ripped myself had I not seen them on the internet. But, when we're talking about the Ds generation of games I always give credit regardless of the rippers request. Making tiles from 3D models is not nearly as quick a process as the above, and in almost all cases requires touching up and even scratch spriting. In that scenario the ripper has to spend time on each piece, and as a reward, for lack of a better term, I credit them as they deserve. The way I see it, credit should be given when the product takes some time to create and perfect. And like people said in the stealing thread, they're essentially stealing the pieces of the games for us, so unless they had to put a genuine effort into it I see no need to credit them.

Genuine effort is really the main point I'm making. That's why I mentioned that many people wouldn't have much reason to ask for credit for a couple little tiles, like a tree or some grass. Those don't take effort. It's when you rip a lot, or hard to get pieces due to them being partially covered (or sound effects that are distorted by BGM). And the 3D tiles you mentioned aren't always as simple as rips, since when you have to do most of it by hand, even when it's from an existing idea, it's not much different from making an entire Pokemon game, which comes from an existing idea. The idea was already there, you just put in the work to make it usable or unique or whatever.

Maybe it'll be easier to put this in terms of numbers. You spend 30 minutes ripping some stuff, whatever it may be, from whatever game. Then say 20 people use it. You've done 30 minutes of work, AND saved 20 people from doing 30 minutes of work. So your efforts essentially gave those people 30 minutes with which they can so something else, totaling to 600 (30x20) minutes worth of cumulative benefit from the work you did. And to save everyone 2 seconds, 600 minutes = 10 hours. If that 10 hours were given to a single person who used it to do 10 hours of work at their minimum wage job, they'd have earned $70 (assuming a $7/hour minimum wage).

 

[champagnepapi]

I definitely agree with the last line of the original post. Why enter the walk through walls code into a ROM and roam for hours when you could be putting work into your game? As plain as
it may sound, and while I do appreciate genuine and dedicated ripping work, I wouldn't mind crediting someone for a tree tile they ripped, if they were the only one who had done it at the time. It's
not like my project would be any less of a game if I added one line of text to the credits list.

 

[KitsuneKouta]

I definitely agree with the last line of the original post. Why enter the walk through walls code into a ROM and roam for hours when you could be putting work into your game? As plain as
it may sound, and while I do appreciate genuine and dedicated ripping work, I wouldn't mind crediting someone for a tree tile they ripped, if they were the only one who had done it at the time. It's
not like my project would be any less of a game if I added one line of text to the credits list.

I liked that last line. And really, it's not like everyone is out to download ROMS in the first place, let alone try to rip graphics from them. Not to mention the possibility of malware involved. If a person really doesn't want to give credit for something, then by all means, they can open up their own ROM and rip away. The point of ripping is so that others don't have to. But you summed it up pretty well, one line in the credits at the end of your game (that probably won't even be seen by many people) isn't so much to ask for.

 

[SytheXP]

I agree and disagree. This post may also be lacking in content due to im half passed out atm. I usually try to credit a spriter no matter what the material is. However I am a forgetful person and not all spriters leave their mark on the sheet (most do however) and honestly I have no problem with crediting people as stated above its a few extra lines of text. I disagree because also as stated above rips are easily obtained, I would like to credit based upon how much time/effort/work was put into the ripping and improvement as opposed to just crediting a simple tree that I could have ripped or sprited from scratch in 10 minutes... And yes I do rip my own sprites, not always but a good amount of the time. I ask for credit based upon how long it took me to complete. If the tile/sprite was done in 5-10 mins I dont ask for credit or leave it as optional. However if I spent hours/days preparing something you can bet i jpeg'd it and you have to sign a contract to get the png :P

 

[Crazyninjaguy]

poccil made the starter kit, not any of us (though CNG is working on it),

I may have misunderstood what you were saying there, but my starterkit is completely from scratch, not a mod of essentials :3

As for the rips question, if people ask for credit for their rips, i say give it to them, they spent their time ripping those graphics/music so why not?

Sure, nintendo made them and all, so give them credit too, but the "ripper" should be given credit if he/she wants it, but just for their time, not for the graphics.

 

[Alistair]

Here's my perspective on the subject. It's a bit short and sweet. If I'm ripping graphics for people to use, I don't want credit for it. It's not my original work. I shouldn't be credited for something I didn't actually make myself, regardless of how long it took me to rip. The original artists should be credited for their contributions. However, if it's an original work based on something else, I would say credit both the original creator and the artist that created the derivative work.

 

[KitsuneKouta]

I agree and disagree. This post may also be lacking in content due to im half passed out atm. I usually try to credit a spriter no matter what the material is. However I am a forgetful person and not all spriters leave their mark on the sheet (most do however) and honestly I have no problem with crediting people as stated above its a few extra lines of text. I disagree because also as stated above rips are easily obtained, I would like to credit based upon how much time/effort/work was put into the ripping and improvement as opposed to just crediting a simple tree that I could have ripped or sprited from scratch in 10 minutes... And yes I do rip my own sprites, not always but a good amount of the time. I ask for credit based upon how long it took me to complete. If the tile/sprite was done in 5-10 mins I dont ask for credit or leave it as optional. However if I spent hours/days preparing something you can bet i jpeg'd it and you have to sign a contract to get the png :P

That's very much my perspective. And yes, some rips are very easy to obtain, but ripping large quantities and correctly arranging and naming them doesn't happen by itself.

@Crazyninjaguy: Yeah, I was meaning it was from scratch. Most of us just use Essentials (with mods of course) instead of making our own from the bottom up. After reading probably 80% of the scripts in Essentials, I'm starting to see why you're making one too. poccil did well, but the organization is killer. And I do agree, credit should just be for the time/effort.

@Alistair: Right, it wouldn't be your original work. Therefore, you shouldn't get credit for the item itself. I only believe you should be credited for the work required to bring it to others. It's like if you asked someone to run to the store to buy some groceries for you. Would it be wrong for them to ask for a few bucks to cover the gas and a pittance for their time? They didn't make the groceries, they just brought them to you. And the groceries certainly won't drive themselves to your doorstep. I do agree with you on derivative work though. When you making buildings in Pokemon style, it may be from scratch, but it's modeled on an existing work. Or even NPCs in Pokemon style. Derivative work is actually pretty self-explanatory in it's name alone. It's derived from elsewhere. But, it took two to tango, so both sides should get what's coming (although only the official artists get money. everyone else gets credit and many thanks).

 

[DarkDoom3000]

I don't tend to.

If a person demands credit for rips, I just look for it elsewhere. God knows theres gonna be tons of rips of the same thing. And if theres none, Ill just do it myself.

 

[Alistair]

Your argument of a shopkeep holds no water in this. For one, when a person rips graphics, they're stealing. It's more like when a thief goes to sell a bunch of watches he stole at a pawnshop. The thief, in this case, is the ripper and shopkeep (and the shop, too) is a website like deviantArt or Spriter's Resource.

So, should the thief get paid, just because he worked hard to steal it?

 

[KitsuneKouta]

Your argument of a shopkeep holds no water in this. For one, when a person rips graphics, they're stealing. It's more like when a thief goes to sell a bunch of watches he stole at a pawnshop. The thief, in this case, is the ripper and shopkeep (and the shop, too) is a website like deviantArt or Spriter's Resource.

So, should the thief get paid, just because he worked hard to steal it?

That's why I explicitly stated in the first post "Assuming that ripping is OK, what do you think about people asking for credit for their rips?" I'm not arguing about who made it or intellectual property rights or anything like that. That would also open doors questioning people "borrowing" the idea of Pokemon itself to create games. The only reason that is even acceptable is because it is for recreational purposes, and not for profit. So labor is the only issue in this debate. Either the person goes and rips it themselves, or someone saves them the time and work to do so. And that's the thing, if you don't want to give credit, then why use the conveniently available resources in the first place? If you can and want to rip the resources yourself, then why not always do so? As I mentioned before, those resources don't put themselves together and organize themselves for you, and Game Freak certainly didn't package them into RMXP ready sets. Also, opinions as to whether ripping was actually stealing or not in the first place was pretty well hashed out in the "Stealing" thread, so it shouldn't be re-hashed here. Finally, no one here asks for money (that I'm aware of) or even anything of value for resources that are ripped, or even those from scratch. You could require money for scripts, but they are just collections of pre-existing keywords and syntax that are arranged and slightly altered to become something original. The arrangement and functionality is what's important, rather than who invented the keywords and syntax.

@DarkDoom3000: I've always wondered if a person would even rip resources if they knew they weren't going to use them themselves or be recognized for whatever time or effort they spent to do so. Wouldn't it just be easier then for no one at all to make their rips public, and make everyone do it themselves? There wouldn't be any questioning where the credit belongs, and you could have an amazingly short list of credits at the end of your game.


Sorry if I seem abrasive in any of these posts. It's not my intention, and tone is difficult to manipulate in text (short of expletives, all caps, and !s), and I've given this quite a bit of thought for a while and have developed numerous opinions regarding the subject and it's connotations. I'd just like get everyone opinions to see where things stand.

 

[DarkDoom3000]

@DarkDoom3000: I've always wondered if a person would even rip resources if they knew they weren't going to use them themselves or be recognized for whatever time or effort they spent to do so. Wouldn't it just be easier then for no one at all to make their rips public, and make everyone do it themselves? There wouldn't be any questioning where the credit belongs, and you could have an amazingly short list of credits at the end of your game.

If you're not gonna use them, then I don't see what you are doing ripping graphics. Ripping for internet points just seems cheap,

That said, I am likely to credit a whole website like
bulbapedia or the spriters resorce

 

[KitsuneKouta]

If you're not gonna use them, then I don't see what you are doing ripping graphics. Ripping for internet points just seems cheap,

That said, I am likely to credit a whole website like
bulbapedia or the spriters resorce

You're right, it would be very cheap to rip just for the purpose of getting you name on somebody's game. However, I think it's usually more personal than that, as in actually wanting to help people. Still being recognized for what you do, but not doing it solely for that purpose. Since, by that same logic, writing scripts for other people that you have no desire to use would be cheap as well, but I don't feel that is the case. And people need help in various capacities, especially when starting out. Games like Pokemon are difficult to make, as demonstrated by The Showcase.

 

[Alistair]

Okay, let me reword this a bit. As you may or may not know, I myself am a graphics artist. Sometimes, I make graphics specifically for people or myself that I use in my maps. However, I don't like people ripping those specific graphics. But people have, and expected credit for it, too. While most have been full-out thefts, some people have actually credited me. I like to think ripping graphics from the official games as a very similar situation, only the artists of said graphics are the ones being ripped off. Even assuming ripping is okay, the rippers almost never acknowledge the original artists hard work on said graphics. While true, hunting down each artist that's done each graphic would be tedious, at least listing the graphics team by name in the credits would not only be nice, but proper acknowledgement. I know, you may think that the list of credits will be extremely long if everyone did that, but actually not so much. Graphics teams in sprite-based games are actually quite small, so the list would be as well.

But also, you have to think of this: because they're rips and hard to trace who actually did them, people can always claim that they did them themselves. I mean, yeah, you can kind of tell when the tileset has a certain arrangement like many of the RPG Maker XP-format tilesets, but what's stopping anyone from rearranging them and adding/subtracting tiles? In addition to that, if a ripper does actually find someone not giving credit and manage to prove that the person is using his/her rips, they can't do a thing about it because they hold no rights over the ripped graphics.

And yes, many of these rippers that "require" credit do do it for the e-cred. There are a few that do it just because they actually like to look at the technique and style used in some games, but not as many as you'd think and those people usually don't require credit.

 

[KitsuneKouta]

Okay, let me reword this a bit. As you may or may not know, I myself am a graphics artist. Sometimes, I make graphics specifically for people or myself that I use in my maps. However, I don't like people ripping those specific graphics. But people have, and expected credit for it, too. While most have been full-out thefts, some people have actually credited me. I like to think ripping graphics from the official games as a very similar situation, only the artists of said graphics are the ones being ripped off. Even assuming ripping is okay, the rippers almost never acknowledge the original artists hard work on said graphics. While true, hunting down each artist that's done each graphic would be tedious, at least listing the graphics team by name in the credits would not only be nice, but proper acknowledgement. I know, you may think that the list of credits will be extremely long if everyone did that, but actually not so much. Graphics teams in sprite-based games are actually quite small, so the list would be as well.

But also, you have to think of this: because they're rips and hard to trace who actually did them, people can always claim that they did them themselves. I mean, yeah, you can kind of tell when the tileset has a certain arrangement like many of the RPG Maker XP-format tilesets, but what's stopping anyone from rearranging them and adding/subtracting tiles? In addition to that, if a ripper does actually find someone not giving credit and manage to prove that the person is using his/her rips, they can't do a thing about it because they hold no rights over the ripped graphics.

And yes, many of these rippers that "require" credit do do it for the e-cred. There are a few that do it just because they actually like to look at the technique and style used in some games, but not as many as you'd think and those people usually don't require credit.

Those are very nice points. I have to say I agree with you on all accounts too. I guess I'm taking the standpoint of assuming someone didn't just take someone else's rip, or rip sprites made by someone in the fan community. I guess it's sort of a "perfect world" scenario, assuming people only have good intentions. Of course, as you said, that's just not always the case. When someone rips (or steals, depending your perspective) a rip, or artwork by someone else in the community, then they shouldn't get credit, but rather ostracism. The former required no effort, and is stealing the efforts of another, and the latter is stealing intellectual property (against professionals, they don't lose profits (their reward) unless you illegally sell the game, whereas hobbyist art, such as what you have done, are rewarded by credit from appreciative users only, so stealing that steals the entirety of the reward you are entitled to). And I do agree with you that the original authors of the works should be credited, regardless of how long the credits may become (which would still pale in comparison to professional games). I also agree that rips are difficult to prove the originator of. That will always be a problem, so all I can do is recommend that people try to only use rips by people who are fairly reputable (i.e. they have a good reputation and portfolio), or only ones given in direct response to a request for that rip. Less confusion that way. And by the way, I appreciate your input. Sensible discussion is the best way to sort these sort of things out.

 

[Ben.]

Short and simple;
You can't claim credit for ripping material, you can only ask for it in the hope some people do.

I credit people if it's rather a large project, or just if it's any use to me.

 

[KitsuneKouta]

Short and simple;
You can't claim credit for ripping material, you can only ask for it in the hope some people do.

I credit people if it's rather a large project, or just if it's any use to me.

I can't say for sure, but it sounds like that'd cover any area I discussed above. Both crediting for large rips (due to the effort involved), and crediting if it's useful (which is the main reason for using a rip), since it saves you the time/effort. It's generally good practice to thank someone for doing something good for you, and it sounds like that's exactly what you do. And do you mean you can't claim credit for the RIP, or credit for rippING?