Cutting

[chilton]

but it's also kind of disrespectful to some, myself as well, who actually cut to cope with emotions when people cut because it's "edgy". i'm keeping in mind the assumption the person cutting to "be cool" doesn't have any mental health issues of any sort. if i were given the chance to not be addicted to self harm as i am now [and yes, for myself at least, it is an addiction], then i would gladly accept it. but when people use it as a trend, it just saddens me.

 

[Kanzler]

Ehh, I find the practice of cutting suspect especially when it gets subculture-y, what with the blogs and the emo music and all. I don't know why people feel that it's the only way they can cope, do scary stuff.

 

[Oryx]

but it's also kind of disrespectful to some, myself as well, who actually cut to cope with emotions when people cut because it's "edgy". i'm keeping in mind the assumption the person cutting to "be cool" doesn't have any mental health issues of any sort. if i were given the chance to not be addicted to self harm as i am now [and yes, for myself at least, it is an addiction], then i would gladly accept it. but when people use it as a trend, it just saddens me.

Once again, what makes you believe your reason for cutting is the more valid one? Many people do many things to harm themselves - do you find it disrespectful to those with alcoholism when people party and get drunk?

This is why I connected this to "the only moral abortion is my abortion" - the only moral cutting is my cutting. You know your own thoughts and think of yourself as a generally good person, so your thoughts seem logical to you. However, instead of using that knowledge to extend empathy to other people, you use it to judge them and shut them out, claiming they're not cutting for the "right" reasons like you.

 

[chilton]

Once again, what makes you believe your reason for cutting is the more valid one? Many people do many things to harm themselves - do you find it disrespectful to those with alcoholism when people party and get drunk?

This is why I connected this to "the only moral abortion is my abortion" - the only moral cutting is my cutting. You know your own thoughts and think of yourself as a generally good person, so your thoughts seem logical to you. However, instead of using that knowledge to extend empathy to other people, you use it to judge them and shut them out, claiming they're not cutting for the "right" reasons like you.

i'm not trying to say that at all though? i'm talking about people who do it to disrespect cutters. you don't know me, don't tell me i'm not empathetic. why don't you reread what i said before and understand i'm talking about people who disrespect cutters by making it a trend. you're literally twisting my words around into something i never tried to imply. i never said that my cutting puts myself before others. there is no "right" reason to cut, i never said there was. cutting is awful and no one should have to suffer from it. stop trying to act like i'm implying all of these awful things. i'm not.

 

[Kanzler]

Yeah, but people with alcoholism don't drink because they think it's for the right reasons. I dunno, that analogy seems iffy. I could draw an analogy to gun control that leans more so to her point: people who buy guns just to look cool make gun owners look bad, because they're not owning guns for the right reasons (or more so they're being irresponsible etc etc).

 

[Omicron]

but it's also kind of disrespectful to some, myself as well, who actually cut to cope with emotions when people cut because it's "edgy". i'm keeping in mind the assumption the person cutting to "be cool" doesn't have any mental health issues of any sort. if i were given the chance to not be addicted to self harm as i am now [and yes, for myself at least, it is an addiction], then i would gladly accept it. but when people use it as a trend, it just saddens me.

Well, cutting yourself, even to be "edgy" as you put it, is most surely an indication of mental instability. There's more than one reason someone might cut, all as valid as the next one.

 

[chilton]

Well, cutting yourself, even to be "edgy" as you put it, is most surely an indication of mental instability. There's more than one reason someone might cut, all as valid as the next one.

as i literally said before, "keeping in mind the assumption the person cutting to "be cool" doesn't have any mental health issues of any sort". i understand if the person does have mental health problems. in any case, cutting isn't okay. my point is that those who do it to be "edgy" just sicken me, in my opinion at least.

in general, i'm just stating my opinion on these kinds of people. i would appreciate it if people wouldn't bash me on it any further. you guys obviously have your opinions, and i have mine.

 

[Oryx]

Yeah, but people with alcoholism don't drink because they think it's for the right reasons. I dunno, that analogy seems iffy. I could draw an analogy to gun control that leans more so to her point: people who buy guns just to look cool make gun owners look bad, because they're not owning guns for the right reasons (or more so they're being irresponsible etc etc).

No one is addicted to gun ownership, so I don't see how that could be relevant. Gun owners that are irresponsible with their guns make gun owners who are responsible with their guns look bad - therefore cutters that cut irresponsibly make cutters who cut responsibly look bad? Who cuts responsibly? You might need to explain this analogy a little more.

edit: these hypothetical EDGY CUTTERS WHO HAVE NOTHING WRONG WITH THEM are hilarious. Can someone provide one? I have literally only seen this targeted at people, as in "oh I can just tell, that person doesn't REALLY have a reason to cut, they just want attention", when they have no way of knowing the person's mental state. It's a convenient boogeyman to target.

 

[chilton]

edit: these hypothetical EDGY CUTTERS WHO HAVE NOTHING WRONG WITH THEM are hilarious. Can someone provide one? I have literally only seen this targeted at people, as in "oh I can just tell, that person doesn't REALLY have a reason to cut, they just want attention", when they have no way of knowing the person's mental state. It's a convenient boogeyman to target.

i don't know what kind of proof you want other than my own word they do exist. there are quite a few i know personally, who literally tell me they do it just to be cool. i'm not even giving the "oh, i can just tell" argument; these people are from my personal experience and i know better than you can tell me i do. please stop assuming i'm ignorant to their mental health state.

 

[Oryx]

i don't know what kind of proof you want other than my own word they do exist. there are quite a few i know personally, who literally tell me they do it just to be cool. i'm not even giving the "oh, i can just tell" argument; these people are from my personal experience and i know better than you can tell me i do. please stop assuming i'm ignorant to their mental health state.

Do you tell them how their personal choices sicken you?

You need to calm down a bit, because I'm not targeting you at all; this is a refrain that has run through this entire thread. "MY cutting is understandable, but THEIRS is sickening!" "I get it if you're doing it because you're depressed, but if it's because you feel that you don't get enough attention? WORSE THAN HITLER." I just can't imagine how people are so judgmental of the actions of others; so what if they want to be cool? People self-destruct all the time in ways that have nothing to do with you. In fact, choosing to self-destruct is often argued as proof of a mental disorder - as in, the fact that you are doing it is itself proof positive that you have something wrong in your head no matter what you say because otherwise you wouldn't be harming yourself for life simply to be seen as cool.

There's so much judgment on those who choose to self-destruct; honestly, if anything there should be more tolerance and acceptance of those who actively make the choice to cut because they want to in the same way that people pierce themselves or get tattoos or take risks; unlike those who don't feel like they have a choice, that can benefit from people helping them stop and keeping a close eye on them, these people are just doing what they want. If it ends in them self-destructing, then it's their life that's destroyed, not yours. Who are you to judge them for choosing to do what they want with their life?

 

[chilton]

Do you tell them how their personal choices sicken you?

You need to calm down a bit, because I'm not targeting you at all; this is a refrain that has run through this entire thread. "MY cutting is understandable, but THEIRS is sickening!" "I get it if you're doing it because you're depressed, but if it's because you feel that you don't get enough attention? WORSE THAN HITLER." I just can't imagine how people are so judgmental of the actions of others; so what if they want to be cool? People self-destruct all the time in ways that have nothing to do with you. In fact, choosing to self-destruct is often argued as proof of a mental disorder - as in, the fact that you are doing it is itself proof positive that you have something wrong in your head no matter what you say because otherwise you wouldn't be harming yourself for life simply to be seen as cool.

There's so much judgment on those who choose to self-destruct; honestly, if anything there should be more tolerance and acceptance of those who actively make the choice to cut because they want to in the same way that people pierce themselves or get tattoos or take risks; unlike those who don't feel like they have a choice, that can benefit from people helping them stop and keeping a close eye on them, these people are just doing what they want. If it ends in them self-destructing, then it's their life that's destroyed, not yours. Who are you to judge them for choosing to do what they want with their life?

firstly, i don't tell them i feel offended. i have manners. i don't even see why that's a question.
i'm sorry for assuming you were targeting me, it just came off that way from your reply.
to put it simply, it just personally offends me, that's all. i'm not claiming the attention seekers are "worse than hitler", and i'm doubtful anyone else on this thread claimed so as well. that's all.

 

[Kanzler]

No one is addicted to gun ownership, so I don't see how that could be relevant. Gun owners that are irresponsible with their guns make gun owners who are responsible with their guns look bad - therefore cutters that cut irresponsibly make cutters who cut responsibly look bad? Who cuts responsibly? You might need to explain this analogy a little more.

edit: these hypothetical EDGY CUTTERS WHO HAVE NOTHING WRONG WITH THEM are hilarious. Can someone provide one? I have literally only seen this targeted at people, as in "oh I can just tell, that person doesn't REALLY have a reason to cut, they just want attention", when they have no way of knowing the person's mental state. It's a convenient boogeyman to target.

Well based on what chilton said, she uses cutting as a coping mechanism, which seems a lot more "responsible" than doing it for vanity reasons. To be fair, cutting yourself isn't hurting anyone in the sense that superficial cuts on the skin, in the long run, mean little other than perhaps social stigma. And nobody thinks alcoholism is cool or validated, but I'd argue that cutting can be seen as cool or validated in the forms of subcultures that promote/treat them as normal.

My point was that you can't make alcoholism look cool which is why I found the analogy off. I thought the chilton's point of why people cutting for vanity reasons is bad is because it glamorizes something that shouldn't be glamorized. Anyways, it's just an analogy.

I also don't like the argument that self-harming is proof as a mental disorder - that means you can't self-harm without a mental disorder. Why can't people just be vain and willing to let out a bit of blood for some cool scars? It's just as insane as tattooing, if you want it to be. I don't see why self-harming to be cool = mental disorder. Some people just don't value life and the integrity of their skin as much as others and it's hardly a sacrifice to them. The problem is that it's done in imitation of those who actually suffer and that's mockery to them and makes it harder for people to take them seriously.

 

[Omicron]

Do you tell them how their personal choices sicken you?

You need to calm down a bit, because I'm not targeting you at all; this is a refrain that has run through this entire thread. "MY cutting is understandable, but THEIRS is sickening!" "I get it if you're doing it because you're depressed, but if it's because you feel that you don't get enough attention? WORSE THAN HITLER." I just can't imagine how people are so judgmental of the actions of others; so what if they want to be cool? People self-destruct all the time in ways that have nothing to do with you. In fact, choosing to self-destruct is often argued as proof of a mental disorder - as in, the fact that you are doing it is itself proof positive that you have something wrong in your head no matter what you say because otherwise you wouldn't be harming yourself for life simply to be seen as cool.

There's so much judgment on those who choose to self-destruct; honestly, if anything there should be more tolerance and acceptance of those who actively make the choice to cut because they want to in the same way that people pierce themselves or get tattoos or take risks; unlike those who don't feel like they have a choice, that can benefit from people helping them stop and keeping a close eye on them, these people are just doing what they want. If it ends in them self-destructing, then it's their life that's destroyed, not yours. Who are you to judge them for choosing to do what they want with their life?

You were able to word what I wanted to say more clear than I was able to.

I too believe there is a lot of judgement on those that choose to self-destruct. Although, I believe everyone who cuts would benefit from people keeping an eye on them and paying attention to them. We can all benefit from someone stopping and listening to us, actually, but for obvious reasons, people that self-harm can benefit a lot more. People need to start accepting and trying to help people that cut. The lack of tolerance or respect towards those that do is terrible. It can easily drive them towards more violent acts aimed at themselves. Self-harm shaming must stop. They are greatly misunderstood.

 

[Kanzler]

We are talking about self-harming, right? Isn't self-destruct what a Graveller does?

Also saying that people who self-harm benefit from people paying attention to them assumes that there is this fixed "demand" for attention, and once you give that thirst what it wants, it'll stop. That might be true. But couldn't you also just be fuelling an addiction in another case, justifying and legitimizing it, in the cutter's mind, that it's an appropriate way to have people attend to you?

 

[Omicron]

Well based on what chilton said, she uses cutting as a coping mechanism, which seems a lot more "responsible" than doing it for vanity reasons. To be fair, cutting yourself isn't hurting anyone in the sense that superficial cuts on the skin, in the long run, mean little other than perhaps social stigma. And nobody thinks alcoholism is cool or validated, but I'd argue that cutting can be seen as cool or validated in the forms of subcultures that promote/treat them as normal.

My point was that you can't make alcoholism look cool which is why I found the analogy off. I thought the chilton's point of why people cutting for vanity reasons is bad is because it glamorizes something that shouldn't be glamorized. Anyways, it's just an analogy.

I also don't like the argument that self-harming is proof as a mental disorder - that means you can't self-harm without a mental disorder. Why can't people just be vain and willing to let out a bit of blood for some cool scars? It's just as insane as tattooing, if you want it to be. I don't see why self-harming to be cool = mental disorder. Some people just don't value life and the integrity of their skin as much as others and it's hardly a sacrifice to them. The problem is that it's done in imitation of those who actually suffer and that's mockery to them and makes it harder for people to take them seriously.

Self-harm may not be a proof of a mental disorder per se, but I would argue that it is proof of mental instability. Mainly because self-harm goes against our most primal instincts: surviving. For the same reason we are incapable of deliberately stop breathing or choking ourselves, cutting goes against human nature, avoiding injury and pain at all costs.

Also, yes, there is always a possibility that the attention fuels the addiction. I believe that the possibility is a lot greater if they are shamed or ignored, though. The best course of action would be consulting a psychiatrist, of course. He should be able to evaluate the situation and tell the patients and those close to them how to act or react in different situations.

 

[Kanzler]

Self-harm may not be a proof of a mental disorder per se, but I would argue that it is proof of mental instability. Mainly because self-harm goes against our most primal instincts: surviving. For the same reason we are incapable of deliberately stop breathing or choking ourselves, cutting goes against human nature, avoiding injury and pain at all costs.

I don't think that's entirely true. If someone got it into his head that cutting is cool, should we consider him mentally unstable because of that? Or what if he's just socially misguided? I would argue that we go against "human nature" all the time, and we don't avoid injury and pain at all costs. People who submit to hazing would also be mentally unstable, given what you've written here, as they're purposefully subjecting themselves to injury and pain for social acceptance/attention, not unlike the proposed vanity cutter.

 

[Omicron]

I don't think that's entirely true. If someone got it into his head that cutting is cool, should we consider him mentally unstable because of that? Or what if he's just socially misguided? I would argue that we go against "human nature" all the time, and we don't avoid injury and pain at all costs. People who submit to hazing would also be mentally unstable, given what you've written here, as they're purposefully subjecting themselves to injury and pain for social acceptance/attention, not unlike the proposed vanity cutter.

Ok, maybe you're right in the part that we do not always avoid injury and pain at all costs. People do a lot or reckless things and submit themselves to unnecessary risks, resulting in injuries or pain. To avoid it at all costs would also include avoiding those situations. Not doing so doesn't equate to being mentally unstable, you are right. However, that's still very different to purposefully injuring oneself with the only purpose of it being inflicting pain. Social misguidance may be an important factor in it, but I think mental instability is still part of it.

Also, I thought hazing was more about humiliation than pain? I really don't know much about the subject. In any case, most of the times someone is inflicting the pain on them. I also imagine that most of the time the rituals are executed at the same time as they are introduced to them, not giving the people enough time to think about what is happening and even less to back out.