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Debate: How do you feel about abortions?

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Oryx

CoquettishCat
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    Um... nothing /has/ been proven, unless you plan on showing the evidence. See, there are actual rules that say a random scientist cannot just say stuff like that without making a fool out of themselves and probably ruining their reputation. They need to run a study that gives actual conclusive evidence, and have at least a fairly reputable background in order to be accepted. Even then, people are going to try and reproduce their evidence. If they can't, then that person is in trouble. TL;DR, that isn't how it works.

    Also, frankly, there will always be a minority that refuses to believe. Keyword, minority. People as a whole will not simultaneously say screw you science when it stops agreeing with them. Some of them will change, and that will be all it takes to change the world.

    https://www.nrlc.org/abortion/facts/fetaldevelopment.html
    https://www.pregnancy.org/fetaldevelopment
    https://www.babycenter.com/pregnancy-fetal-development-index

    We know what's happening inside the womb. What evidence are you looking for? What I'm saying is that we know when a fetus has a heartbeat, when it responds to stimuli, when it can move its fingers, whatever you'd like to know about the fetus. What we don't know is how much of that the fetus needs until it's considered a human being, a question that science cannot answer for us. What kind of experiments are you suggesting that would returns 1s and 0s for fetuses in various stages of development? Like I said, the definition of "when a fetus becomes a human" is arbitrary, and based on what people agree on, not some to-be-found scientific breakthrough that tells us "this gene changes to a human gene from a fetus gene at 8 weeks, that's when it's a human".

    Took me a while to reply because of late-night classes, lol.
     
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    Reading arguments wouldn't have changed my opinion on abortions.
    Don't listen to reason and see only your point of view as correct.
    Yeah, an excellent attitude for a discussion. You certainly have future in those kinda things.
    the-face-frances-prime-minister-had-before-the-burka-ban-aka-trollface.jpg
     

    aruchan

    I resent the title beginner :D
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    https://www.nrlc.org/abortion/facts/fetaldevelopment.html
    https://www.pregnancy.org/fetaldevelopment
    https://www.babycenter.com/pregnancy-fetal-development-index

    We know what's happening inside the womb. What evidence are you looking for? What I'm saying is that we know when a fetus has a heartbeat, when it responds to stimuli, when it can move its fingers, whatever you'd like to know about the fetus. What we don't know is how much of that the fetus needs until it's considered a human being, a question that science cannot answer for us. What kind of experiments are you suggesting that would returns 1s and 0s for fetuses in various stages of development? Like I said, the definition of "when a fetus becomes a human" is arbitrary, and based on what people agree on, not some to-be-found scientific breakthrough that tells us "this gene changes to a human gene from a fetus gene at 8 weeks, that's when it's a human".

    Took me a while to reply because of late-night classes, lol.

    In my view a fetus becomes a human when it has conscious thought processes, which has been theorized/proven/described to be at about 20 weeks. So that is when it turns from abortion to human killing; I only support abortion after 20 or so weeks if a medical emergency necessitates it.
     

    Oryx

    CoquettishCat
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    In my view a fetus becomes a human when it has conscious thought processes, which has been theorized/proven/described to be at about 20 weeks. So that is when it turns from abortion to human killing; I only support abortion after 20 or so weeks if a medical emergency necessitates it.

    See, the interesting part about that is that some people may disagree and say that the first heartbeat is when the fetus becomes a human, at five weeks. Yet another person may claim it's when they start consuming food from the placenta at 10 weeks. A final person might say that a fetus isn't a human until it's capable of surviving outside of the womb, at 20-22 weeks. And no one can say that you're wrong, or any of the other people are wrong. This is where science fails us - it can tell us what parts are developed, but not which ones give it enough "humanness" for it to be considered a full human.
     

    FreakyLocz14

    Conservative Patriot
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    Please stop quoting California state law. It is irrelevant. In California, medical marijuana is legal, but federal agents can shut down all of the operations if they chose to. In a small town in Colorado, recreational weed use is legal. It does not really matter, because everything is trumped by federal law. Please start using relevant information. Thanks.

    You are so misguided. For one, nowhere in this thread was it stated that the scope of argument is limited to federal law. It is very relevant that a common trend among states is that the unborn are being recognized as human being under the law. The U.S. Supreme Court itself has cited changing attitudes among state legislatures as reasons to overturn a previous ruling several times

    You are also incorrect in stating that federal agents can shutdown the operations of medical marijuana industries in California. A federal judge for the Northern District of California has ruled that the federal government does not have the authority unless it can be shown that the marijuana or its paraphernalia has left or came from outside the State of California at any point in time, giving the feds jurisdiction under the Commerce Clause. If there is no interstate commerce, the feds can't do anything about it.

    Let me play devil's advocate. Let's say that abortion is the killing of a human being. It's legal, per Roe v. Wade. So, by that merit, it is not homicide. QED

    I think abortion should be the woman's choice, as it is her body. I think it's better to abort the fetus than to have it suffer through adoption or various other woes, and for teens a pregnancy can ruin their lives.

    So you can be counted on to advocate for overturning one of the two murder counts that Scott Peterson was convicted of when he was convicted of murdering his wife and his unborn child.

    The whole "it's the woman's body" argument is so selfish and disregard the fact that there is a another human body forming in the picture.
     

    femtrooper

    Starfleet Commander
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    Okay, so I am VERY liberal on this issue and am PRO abortion. I think it is okay during certain stages of development. Obviously getting an abortion like a month before you are due is really gross and not right, but when it's a little blob...yes. I am by no means religious and think that abortion is okay.

    For starters, rape. Many people say, "Just give the baby up for adoption!" Ummm...that's really hard to do. And what if you are only 13 and have been raped. Sorry, an abortion is the best thing in my opinion.

    And this might get me some haters...but honestly, if I found out I was having a baby with a mental disability, I would have an abortion. Why? Not because I am a dick, because I think it's UNETHICAL to bring a baby into the world with problems. Why bring a person into the world that is going to need constant care, or possibly die within a few years? Why allow them to have that pain? It also kind of ruins your life too...and yes, I might be coming off as a dick, but it's true. I don't agree with bringing people into the world with problems. It is not good for society and do you honestly want to see your baby suffering every day of it's life? Or be unable to do something like walk, or talk or function? That is why I agree with it there.

    And also, accidents happen, you shouldn't have to have your life ruined because of a bad mistake. Mistakes happen to people who aren't just teenagers you know, it just may be bad timing. Just because some book from 2000 years ago says I shouldn't do it means **** to me.

    Again, some of you will not agree with my opinion, some of you will. I am in NO way trying to offend anyone who has other feelings on this issue. It's controversial... I love Pokemon!^^
     

    Gulpin

    poisonous
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    Then I'm sorry you will continuing living in blissful ignorance on the difference between a medically conducted abortion and homicide by deadly weapon. You'll get 'em next time champ :)



    It's fairly well understood that once someone becomes a person, that status will not be revoked before death. And stop taking every argument literally. Hyperbole and contextual arguments are beautiful things.

    The sad thing is that there is no difference between killing someone in a hospital and killing someone on a street. Either way they still die, and either way it is still murder. Also, in my opinion a person gets their status as a person at the moment of conception, not at birth or any of this 'five weeks', etc, stuff.

    Don't listen to reason and see only your point of view as correct.
    Yeah, an excellent attitude for a discussion. You certainly have future in those kinda things.
    the-face-frances-prime-minister-had-before-the-burka-ban-aka-trollface.jpg

    Just because I have a strong opinion about something doesn't mean that I can't be part of a discussion. If everyone just took the most popular or latest person's opinion as their own, there wouldn't be any discussion, would there?
     

    lx_theo

    Game Developer
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    The sad thing is that there is no difference between killing someone in a hospital and killing someone on a street. Either way they still die, and either way it is still murder. Also, in my opinion a person gets their status as a person at the moment of conception, not at birth or any of this 'five weeks', etc, stuff.



    Just because I have a strong opinion about something doesn't mean that I can't be part of a discussion. If everyone just took the most popular or latest person's opinion as their own, there wouldn't be any discussion, would there?


    Your "part of the discussion" is just you saying how wrong it is to believe otherwise. Please offer some reasoning or evidence to support your opinion. Otherwise its just become yelling at someone until they agree with you.
     

    Gulpin

    poisonous
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    Your "part of the discussion" is just you saying how wrong it is to believe otherwise. Please offer some reasoning or evidence to support your opinion. Otherwise its just become yelling at someone until they agree with you.

    Umm.. I have offered evidence to support my opinion. Yelling at someone until they agree with you is saying, "ABORTION IS BAD!!!!!1" which I havn't exactly done.
     

    lx_theo

    Game Developer
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    Umm.. I have offered evidence to support my opinion. Yelling at someone until they agree with you is saying, "ABORTION IS BAD!!!!!1" which I havn't exactly done.


    Not really. Saying what you believe is not reasoning. Give a logical reason someone else might be able to associate with. The closest you came was when you made the point about the comatose. While its a point that was already made, it had some loose connections to your opinion you've been stating over and over again. But it wasn't nearly closely associated enough to be that.

    Not everyone's morality mirrors yours, keep that in mind.
     

    Trinity Cross

    死神
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    To be honest, I'm bias of abortion. I don't really look at it as a bad or good thing. If the mother of the unborn child wants to keep it, then she should, if doesn't want to, then by all means, she could get an abortion. But, preferably, if it's already far along, it would be better if she would just give it up for adoption.
     

    Gulpin

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    Not really. Saying what you believe is not reasoning. Give a logical reason someone else might be able to associate with. The closest you came was when you made the point about the comatose. While its a point that was already made, it had some loose connections to your opinion you've been stating over and over again. But it wasn't nearly closely associated enough to be that.

    Not everyone's morality mirrors yours, keep that in mind.

    I quoted a few posts for you to read through of mine that state my opinion and say why I think it is murder.
    I don't think that abortion is in any right acceptable. If our society sees abortion as okay, then we might as well go around shooting each other because that is what abortion effectively is.
    I think it is the exact same. Why should it be perfectly fine to kill an innocent person, and even worse, one that has absolutley no method of defence?
    So someone that is in a coma isn't actually a person? Because last time I checked they couldn't walk, talk, love, hate, vote, do chores, or pay taxes. Someone that is a vegetable isn't actually a person? That is where your logic is wrong. Some elderly people can't live on their own, so it is okay just to murder them? I don't think it should be. Just because a person is currently in a coma doesn't mean that he/she wont ever come out of it. Just because an unborn baby is living inside of a woman doesn't mean that it wont ever be born. Also, it is a sad thing that your definition of a person is a social security number and a birth certificate, because with that excuse I know some people that, under your definition, arent people.
    The sad thing is that there is no difference between killing someone in a hospital and killing someone on a street. Either way they still die, and either way it is still murder. Also, in my opinion a person gets their status as a person at the moment of conception, not at birth or any of this 'five weeks', etc, stuff.
     

    Luck

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    Not gonna get too involved in this, but I believe that after the first trimester, adoption should be considered instead of abortion, exceptions being mental retardation in babies and whatnot.
    Also, in my opinion a person gets their status as a person at the moment of conception, not at birth or any of this 'five weeks', etc, stuff.

    That's like saying a sunflower seed is a sunflower.
     

    Gulpin

    poisonous
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    Not gonna get too involved in this, but I believe that after the first trimester, adoption should be considered instead of abortion, exceptions being mental retardation in babies and whatnot.


    That's like saying a sunflower seed is a sunflower.

    Well, it is, isn't it? Also, I think that a sunflower isn't the exact same as a human, to a point where they can't be compared.

    Also, my reasoning is that it is a human, and that is why they shouldn't be murdered, just because they rely on another human.
     

    Dawn

    [span="font-size:180%;font-weight:900;color:#a568f
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    Well, coma patients have demonstrated their human-ness before they were put into comas. I guess in that sense it's a kind of no-take-backs on being called human. Once a human, always a human. The when-do-we-first-call-it-human question is still open for fetuses.

    Let me ask this: If science even could answer the question, would it be wrong to force women to carry unwanted pregnancies while we wait for science to answer something that could take years, decades, whole lifetimes, just because we're unsure?

    Oh so they're just conveniently exceptions?~ Well I'll give you this, I didn't see that coming. Are corpses humans? Because clearly the only immediate difference between a corpse and a person is that the corpse has ceased to be alive. Does it stop being human? Is a fetus not human because it has failed to make any legacy? Is that it? Is it merely our feelings towards each other that make each other human? Is a corpse a human once it has been cremated? Say the cremation is thrown into the sea in a dramatic release. Does one cease to become human /then/?

    If the rule has an exception, that means there's something wrong with the rule. Also, if something can start being human, it can cease being human. Sadly sentimental value is a pretty morbid and weak reason to consider something human when it otherwise wouldn't be.

    See, the point that I'm trying to make here is that coming to an actual conclusion is pretty hard. So don't get me wrong. I can't prove to you that a fetus is a human. I also can't prove to you that it isn't.

    The real point is that we don't know, and yet we have an opinion.

    As to your latter question. No, not really. See, on one hand, you have the potential to make someone's life worse, /potentially/ significantly. On the other, you potentially kill someone. That is /not/ a fair tradeoff.

    Now, I feel the need to mention again, that I don't believe abortion should be /illegal/. It's my personal opinion that if the life of the mother is in danger, the lines become very blurred and the situation becomes very subjective to which life you think is more valuable. (This is /all/ assuming a fetus qualifies as a human being.) At that point (and any point even more severe, such as both lives being in danger, though that hardly needs to be said), I'm perfectly fine with abortion. I believe that perhaps we were right to legalize that sort of thing.

    My problem is with abortions being given when the cases are less severe.
     

    The Trotsky

    Wake and Bake
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    You are so misguided. For one, nowhere in this thread was it stated that the scope of argument is limited to federal law. It is very relevant that a common trend among states is that the unborn are being recognized as human being under the law. The U.S. Supreme Court itself has cited changing attitudes among state legislatures as reasons to overturn a previous ruling several times

    You are also incorrect in stating that federal agents can shutdown the operations of medical marijuana industries in California. A federal judge for the Northern District of California has ruled that the federal government does not have the authority unless it can be shown that the marijuana or its paraphernalia has left or came from outside the State of California at any point in time, giving the feds jurisdiction under the Commerce Clause. If there is no interstate commerce, the feds can't do anything about it.

    Well, the Supremacy Clause is pretty clear and blatant. Federal is all that truly matters. Not everyone lives in California, so for the sake of everyone else's sanity, let's avoid quoting California legal code a few thousand more times. I'm arguing at a federal level, where the will of the people as a nation comes together to create a governmental agenda. I do not care about the opinions of state legislatures, who are often populated by those to the extreme right or extreme left, because most do not take the time to vote for elections on state legislatures unless their elections coincide with more relevant ones. It's the same trend as primaries, when only the most fanatic voters (for the most part) come out in large numbers. So the will of the Californian people is irrelevant to that of the Pennsylvanians or Texans.

    And as of my last checking, the DEA had full authority to shut down medical marijuana dispensaries and raid them for weed while their origin was "pending investigation". If this changed in the past two years, I stand corrected. However, the point as a whole still stands. The Supremacy Clause is a fundamental part of American government and federal law always trumps state law.

    The sad thing is that there is no difference between killing someone in a hospital and killing someone on a street. Either way they still die, and either way it is still murder. Also, in my opinion a person gets their status as a person at the moment of conception, not at birth or any of this 'five weeks', etc, stuff.

    Right, well you can think that, but you'd be wrong. By most reasonable definitions of a functioning human being, a fetus falls short. And there is plenty of difference. You are not killing someone in the hospital, you are ending the potential for a cluster of cells to possibly grow into a human being one day, if the pregnancy goes well, saving the mother undue hardship and potential medical complications, in addition to preventing the same problems for the fetus. A fetus is not killed, it is aborted. As in the process to make it become a human being is abandoned. Killing a living, breathing, functioning, communicating man or woman is the taking of a developed life and is unlawful. There is an extreme difference, and I really hope that you are only claiming not to see it for an ideological standpoint and not actual ignorance.

    Well, it is, isn't it? Also, I think that a sunflower isn't the exact same as a human, to a point where they can't be compared.

    Also, my reasoning is that it is a human, and that is why they shouldn't be murdered, just because they rely on another human.

    No, it is not. A sunflower seed has the potential to be planted and become a sunflower. Or it has the potential to end up in birdcrap and amount to nothing, or be sent to a plant and processed into a snack for people. In the same manner that a fetus could end up being a human life eventually or end up dying stillborn or being aborted and having its stem cells donated to research that can save millions of lives.
     
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    Well, this thread has run its course. Same back and forth banter and flaming, and the discussion is going in circles. To be honest, I'm quite disappointed in a few of you. But opinions are opinions. We can't all agree on everything. But this is out of hand, and I'm ending it.

    *Locked*
     
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