[Discussion] Discuss: "Equipping Moves" Mechanic

[Maruno]

If you're contsantly fighting the same trainer over, changing your moves to give you a better advantage, it's probably time to start trying something else (different mons or training) cuz the moveset isn't the problem.

I don't think I'm taking this out of context.

If the problems a player faces when trying to defeat an opponent aren't because of the movesets of their Pokémon, then why bother giving them slightly quicker access to a slightly larger movepool in the first place? You said the movepool is limited to 7 (because more won't fit on the screen; 7 is just as arbitrary as 4, and less logical because 3 of them can't be used in any given battle despite being known), so in the end you're going to be playing around with TMs and Move Tutors anyway. Why bother with 7 in the first place?

When you mentioned the free switch-out when the opponent sends in a new Pokémon, I immediately recalled the option in the Options menu - the one with the "Set" and "Shift" options (which I spent ages not knowing what they meant). The point is, it's an option the player can choose for themselves. Forcing it on the player isn't as good, particularly if it's this half-baked attempt at shaking things up (a proper attempt would at least be a limitless movepool to fill with moves, but that's a GUI problem you didn't want to face).

You said you thought this might be practical, and if not then it was just a fun waste of time. ЩѻƦḽᶑʂḽдƴƹƦ and I think it isn't practical, but I for one agree that it's fun to think about changing something so fundamental. However, what usually happens in these cases is that all sorts of little niggles and quirks start showing themselves, and you end up having to deal with a lot of extra side-effects that you weren't expecting. We've mentioned some of them.

You're playing with code, and that's always a good thing. It's a good effort, albeit one that falls short of being a good alternative (in my view, at least).

 

[Worldslayer608]

"Trainer is about to send out a Weezing. Apparently, you are pyschic. Would you like to change Pokemon? It won't cost you a turn either. Man, lucky you."

That "breaks" the game more then streamlining the whole Move Relearning/Teaching process by adding a buffer, doesn't make any sense in the conext fo the game either. You're given an unfair advantage for no reason too.

Not sure if you just sound snappy or are actually being snappy. But I am not sure how to really explain the level of dynamics you are changing any simpler.

Knowing what your opponent is sending out isn't not as warping as being able to reconfigure moves mind a variety of ways. Knowing what they are sending out gives you an edge, and of course, like many things in Pokémon games, does not quite make sense. However, you having 7 moves that you can switch at any given point outside the battle, without having to actually go somewhere to do it, starts taking everything to a whole new level when your AI can't select from 7 moves as well. You have an edge over your opponent that is far more valuable than knowing what they will send out next.

I don't see how letting my Pikachu keep Quick Attack makes not leveling him up or exploring other Pokemon choices a valid gameplan, but if I do, I guess that's more power to me.

Players will re-optimize their moves to figure out the most powerful configuration anyway, it's just that it's really clunky beyond teaching them TMs/HMs.

Think of it this way, if I am not an avid player, and i have no idea what certain stats mean or what have you, I am probably playing the game because I like Pokémon and there is even a solid chance that my team is going to be based upon what ones I like best, not which ones are more effective. This could lead to me losing quite a few battles. Just because you understand the dynamics of attacks and weaknesses etc, does not mean your players do. From a development standpoint, you are digging a hole. Why? Because I can just start changing my moves around without limitations, saving me the trouble of having to track down someone to change my moves for me, or go fight random battles in the wild to level up.

I didn't say it removes exploration all together, but it certainly effects it. Part of the game should push the player to grind things out. It keeps them busy.

The only battle you should really be refighting is the Elite Four. If you're contsantly fighting the same trainer over, changing your moves to give you a better advantage, it's probably time to start trying something else (different mons or training) cuz the moveset isn't the problem.

Yeah, I remember before I actually started reading about how to optimize my team, losing plenty of battles and having to battle all over again.

You have to keep in mind, when designing and developing, that it isn't all about you. Those taking part in admiring your work need to be considered first if you want it to get anywhere.

EDIT: As Maruno stated, it is not that your idea is bad, it is that is just is not practical when there is just something more practical in place. Personally, I would love to have more moves to choose from, but I see nothing wrong with the current system and it is in fact, user friendly which is vital.

 

[DarkDoom3000]

I have to disagree with worldslayer and maruno.

The system udivision is talking about, to me doesn't sound like a good alternative, but a good upgrade to the current move system.

I do think that the current move system is grossly outdated though. It made sense in 1995 hardware limitations and whatnot. but seems like a unnessicery limitation, since the functionality already exists via move relearner. why not streamline the whole process.
have a 4 move limit for argubly for balance, but being able to swap out moves- making the game a lot more flexable. and it'll also give more variety.

being able to test out new movesets with pokemon and whatnot. And allows you to adapt to the area you're in and what state of the game you are in (ie: battling ingame trainers and battling online people require totally different movesets to be efficent)

Also. pokemon games desperately need NewGame+ options.

 

[udivision]

Sorry for being snappy ЩѻƦḽᶑʂḽдƴƹƦ™, there was no need for that on my part. I wrote up a pretty long response to what you and maruno had to say, but at this point no ones convincing anyone else so it was kind of pointless.

I do have a quesiton though. What do you guys think about unlimted TMs?

 

[Worldslayer608]

Sorry for being snappy ЩѻƦḽᶑʂḽдƴƹƦ™, there was no need for that on my part. I wrote up a pretty long response to what you and maruno had to say, but at this point no ones convincing anyone else so it was kind of pointless.

I do have a quesiton though. What do you guys think about unlimted TMs?

There is an option for it in Essentials, I currently have it set that way in Lost Legends iirc.

 

[udivision]

... I meant in the context of gameplay mechanics.

Technically, have unlimited movepools that can be changed on the fly, no move relearner needed. As long as you have a TM for the moves you want.

What do you think?

 

[Worldslayer608]

... I meant in the context of gameplay mechanics.

Technically, have unlimited movepools that can be changed on the fly, no move relearner needed. As long as you have a TM for the moves you want.

What do you think?

I must be missing something then... are you talking about using a TM an infinite number of times? or having a TM for every move?

 

[DarkDoom3000]

I must be missing something then... are you talking about using a TM an infinite number of times? or having a TM for every move?

I think hes saying that with the infinite TMs, you sorta have attack swapping, although limited to 100(?) attacks.

 

[udivision]

Infinite use of TMs, like Pokemon Black and White.
Assuming you have TM's for the moves you want, you can achieve a pretty huge movepool.

 

[Worldslayer608]

Infinite use of TMs, like Pokemon Black and White.
Assuming you have TM's for the moves you want, you can achieve a pretty huge movepool.

Yeah, that option is already in Essentials under settings.

 

[udivision]

Lol, sorrry. Maybe I'm not being clear. What do you think about the feature of unlimted uses of TMs, how that applies to movepools, the potential advantage it gives the player of being able to change their movesets on the fly, without thhe move relearner, whenver they want? If you find 4 or more TM's that you want to use on your Pokemon, essentially you can swap the movepool out with TM's with no worries.

 

[Worldslayer608]

Lol, sorrry. Maybe I'm not being clear. What do you think about the feature of unlimted uses of TMs, how that applies to movepools, the potential advantage it gives the player of being able to change their movesets on the fly, without thhe move relearner, whenver they want? If you find 4 or more TM's that you want to use on your Pokemon, essentially you can swap the movepool out with TM's with no worries.

# * Whether TMs can be used infinitely as in Gen 5 (true), or are one use only
#      as in older Gens (false).

You are obviously being unclear. Essentials lets you use TM's an unlimited number of times already if the developer sets this setting to True within the scripts.

This means I can use TM35, over and over and over and over. Along with any TM, over and over and over. Meaning I can adjust my moveset whenever and however I want given I have the TM to do so....

 

[IceGod64]

Lol, sorrry. Maybe I'm not being clear. What do you think about the feature of unlimted uses of TMs, how that applies to movepools, the potential advantage it gives the player of being able to change their movesets on the fly, without thhe move relearner, whenver they want? If you find 4 or more TM's that you want to use on your Pokemon, essentially you can swap the movepool out with TM's with no worries.

I get what you're saying... But that's not the same thing at all.

TM's and HM's can only be taught outside of battle, unlike the seven moves idea, where you could potentially swap out moves anytime. With TMs, the four move limit still applies, so you can't break the game with a moveset that covers too many types or can give you too easy of an advantage over a CPU player.

The only reason I want a fifth move slot is basically for HM move "storage", but even that has problematic implications with game play. Mainly because there are no guarantees the player will use that last move slot for a HM. Five moves isn't anywhere near as damaging as seven, but it's still problematic in some cases.

 

[Maruno]

IceGod64 has hit on the other main reason why such easy access to a large movepool is a bad idea - it makes the game too easy. There's strategy involved in being limited to just 4 moves apiece, and you really need to know what you're doing to come up with a decent moveset that you can use for a while (because getting old moves back costs a Heart Scale or whatever it is nowadays). Revising and putting the effort in to improve the moveset is part of the game. Having immediate access to a huge movepool with no limitations wipes this aspect out, leaving just individual battles to worry about. The Pokémon game then becomes little more than a battle simulator. I couldn't say what the impact is of having a limited movepool of size 7, but it's still an impact.

There are two reasons why TMs aren't as great as they're cracked up to be (I'm talking about Gen 5 here). The first is the selection of moves they teach - some are rubbish, most are middling and may well not be used (I remember complaints about some moves no longer being TMs, i.e. the powerful and popular ones). The second reason is that a TM-taught move inherits the PP of the move it replaces. You'll only ever have the same number of PPs as you had before, if not fewer. They don't let you go on for longer, they just let you do things differently. The latter reason in particular is why they're different to having a larger movepool.

I think that infinite TMs are good, as they now work like HMs always have (thus making more sense). Because they inherit PP, you still need to know what you're doing before using one, otherwise you might end up wasting 25% of your battle options and need to put time into correcting it. This "penalty" for getting it wrong is part of the game too.

 

[udivision]

Ah, I see where the contention is. The 7 Moves idea includes not being able to swap moves during battle. I'm pretty sure I've mentioned that several times, but if I didn't sorry. Therefore, you can't do what you mentioned, IceGod64

It seems like I was being perfeclty clear, you just didn't understand ЩѻƦḽᶑʂḽдƴƹƦ™. Your post almost sounds like what I was aiming for, sans needing TMs.

I don't think the balance established by 4 moves is as fragile as it's being painted out to be. I don't think it reduces the amount of care needed in selecting your movepool either. If you can't find more than four moves worth using, or that you think are worth having, than yea, the extra move slots aren't going to do you any good. If a player can't make up his mind, and changes his Pokemon's moveset every battle, than I think that's his problem. You can't say the fact that he has the ability to choose extra moves therefore negates the process of determing a good moveset. Going by that argument, having a near limitless PC Box size would negate the effort it takes to craft the perfect 6 man team, when you can swap out your guys for a new team rather conviently. Rather than train harder or develop different strategies with the party, you could just say, "Meh, this guy stinks. Better catch a new one." I don't think this poor strategy is a detrament to the game, but it's fully allowable within the regulations of Pokemon. You can goof around with a larger movepool to, but that doesn't take away the ability (or necessity) of figuring out which moves you want to use with your guy.

 

[Worldslayer608]

It seems like I was being perfeclty clear, you just didn't understand ЩѻƦḽᶑʂḽдƴƹƦ™. Your post almost sounds like what I was aiming for, sans needing TMs.

Man you are cheeky... First of all, my last post was restating what I already stated

Lol, sorrry. Maybe I'm not being clear. What do you think about the feature of unlimted uses of TMs, how that applies to movepools, the potential advantage it gives the player of being able to change their movesets on the fly, without thhe move relearner, whenver they want? If you find 4 or more TM's that you want to use on your Pokemon, essentially you can swap the movepool out with TM's with no worries.

Secondly you probably should have stated the sans TM thing ahead of time eh? I am not misunderstanding, You are just not being completely clear.

If a player can't make up his mind, and changes his Pokemon's moveset every battle, than I think that's his problem. You can't say the fact that he has the ability to choose extra moves therefore negates the process of determing a good moveset.

This is where you start getting into an issue of design and development. The game is not for you, if is for the people playing it. If you think that his problems are not yours you should pick up a different hobby that revolves around you.

Going by that argument, having a near limitless PC Box size would negate the effort it takes to craft the perfect 6 man team, when you can swap out your guys for a new team rather conviently. Rather than train harder or develop different strategies with the party, you could just say, "Meh, this guy stinks. Better catch a new one." I don't think this poor strategy is a detrament to the game, but it's fully allowable within the regulations of Pokemon. You can goof around with a larger movepool to, but that doesn't take away the ability (or necessity) of figuring out which moves you want to use with your guy.

Going to a PC requires the player to have to actually move around the world to go to one, rather than just opening up his bag. This is going back to what I was saying earlier about exploring and keeping the player busy. It is important, otherwise it can become stagnant.

While having move pools that are larger may not remove the ability and necessity of figuring out what moves are best, it makes an easy game easier.

Flavor-wise, it makes sense to only be able to use a TM once, it keeps the players moving around and hunting them down. It also will eventually tie in to how re-playable the game is, which is huge. If you can attract the idea of a player scrapping a beaten game to go through the same linear game, you are ahead as a developer.

As far as user friendly, unlimited TM's is nice. But adding are configuring it to be even easier than that starts decaying game play and interest.

I think you are really pressing too hard for an idea that has more than likely gone through revision after revision until it was applied as what it currently is.

 

[udivision]

These guys got it:

I think hes saying that with the infinite TMs, you sorta have attack swapping, although limited to 100(?) attacks.

I get what you're saying... But that's not the same thing at all.

We were talking about how unlimited TM's relate to the discussion & movepools, but you kept on bringing up whether or not it was a feature Essentials, which was a little frustrating because that didn't have anything to do with what we were saying. I even clarified that several times, so that's why I said the problem wasn't on my end.

So that we don't continue going in circles (no one's changing each other's minds), I'll propose a question: what would you change about the move system, if anything? I know most people have few choice words for HM's, but in addition to that, is there anything to fix? If it ain't broke, dont' fix it, but there's also that looming feeling of Pokemon's stagnation through the years.

 

[Maruno]

I think the only reasonable way to allow an unlimited movepool is to turn PP from a move-specific property into a Pokémon-based "mana bar". That way you allow the player the same number of battles before running out of PP, while giving them more choice of moves. Yes, it turns Pokémon into more of a generic RPG, but it works fine.

On a GUI note, if we're having infinite movepools, I'd like to see the moves be physically separated into categories, rather than all in one big list. I think it would be hard to come up with a decent way to do this, but I think it should involve a combination of the following differentiations: type, Physical/Special/Status, raw power, utility (damaging/strategic/healing/etc.). It shouldn't really be just one of these things.

While we're at it, why not make TMs equipable? Rather than them teaching a move, it should be an additional move the holder can use only while it's holding it (it should probably be separate to a held item). You have the benefits of infinite use, and the drive to get more copies. TM cards in the card game work this way (although they only stick around for one turn).

Since we're messing with the very fabric of the game, how about power levels for moves? All new moves start off weak (Bubble), but then you level it up somehow and it becomes stronger (BubbleBeam). The name changing is purely cosmetic, and some moves may never change their name (False Swipe)... although you could remake all the moves so that they have different names for each power level. Different moves can have a different number of power levels in total (e.g. Water Gun -> Hydro Pump -> Hydro Cannon), and different Pokémon can access different maximum levels for a given move (e.g. the highest level Hydro Cannon is only available to water starters, but many more species can get up to Hydro Pump, and many more still can get just Water Gun).

As a related aside, I have played Grandia II and greatly enjoyed it. All my suggestions were inspired by it - it has a great battle system.

 

[DarkDoom3000]

^ Thats some really nice ideas. Like the idea about moves leveling up.
could be like FF7's materia leveling. Have an attack equiped for long enough, it upgrades.

 

[udivision]

You're reminding me of Dragon Quest Monsters. That was a completely different take on Pokemon, and was a pretty amazing game in it's own right.

Your moves "evolved" as you leveled up (Blaze => Blazemore) and it used a traditional MP system. It too had a limit to your movepool, I think it was 20, but by breeding your monsters with other monsters you' get a new monster with a movepool of both the parents (there were a few restrictions I think) rather than just from one parent like Pokemon. You didn't learn moves by level though, you had to have good enough stats. (i.e. Your mon would need 10 Attack and 5 Intelligence to learn IceAir). Dont know exactly what pokemon could learn from DQM, but I'm sure there's something.