[Discussion] Thoughts on Abortion

[AzuGazer]

As I said before, I think abortion should ALWAYS be available as an option. You may not like it, you may not agree with it, but we should be respectful of those who make the incredibly difficult decision to terminate a pregnancy based on other factors in their life that would make raising the child or sending it out for adoption unreasonable and, in many cases, impossible. I think people are ignoring the fact that most women do not think having an abortion is a wonderful or freeing experience; it comes with so many psychological issues, just as pregnancy and adoption does. We can yell "TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOURSELF" and "PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY" all we want, but that is not going to change that some women will see abortion as their only option, and we should be respectful of them making that choice. Are we going to demonize women for taking birth control or the morning after pill simply because it terminates a potential pregnancy? Like I said said in my original post, women should have a choice as to whether or not they become pregnant or if they become pregnant; pregnancy, childbirth and the raising of a child are extremely difficult tasks and we should be allowed to regulate those experiences or prevent those experiences from happening at all.

I am saying that telling a woman she's "taking a life" is psychologically detrimental because the woman already realizes that she is terminating a pregnancy and she does not need the added torment from a medical professional about what she is doing. These women struggle with making the decision to abort a fetus and it's unnecessary to continue to torture them with the knowledge that the fetus growing inside them will be removed and will not develop as a result. We cannot demonize these women for

To say that sexual intercourse is not natural is ridiculous. We are programmed to reproduce. But in a society where it is increasingly difficult to raise a child due to economic and societal factors, it should be easy for women to find options that best suit their needs. There ARE cases where abortion may be the only solution, and I feel that it is necessary to allow that option to exist. You do not have to agree with me; I'm simply sharing my opinion. But this "always take personal responsibility" thing gets old quite fast, especially when you take into account that most of these women ARE taking personal responsibility and simply had pregnancy arise despite their precautions. If you think that women should avoid sexual intercourse to prevent pregnancy, feel free to think that way. But it is never going to happen, and we should recognize that we cannot regulate every human being's activities, and it is not logical and just to do so. Abortion has existed for hundreds of years; nowadays it is a medical procedure performed in a proper setting that is much less dangerous and painful. I think it's rude to call women who have abortions baby killers or other profane terms when they have already suffering as it is.

Sorry about the tangent!

why Should we be respectful to those to terminate what they have done just so they don't have to worry about it? (Then are bothered about it later) What could be stopping them? Money? What is that to new life? Family? What family would stop u from birthing instead of helping u with the baby? Cause u wanna keep your life? u could just put up for adoption and then if they find u, tell them that reason.

u also said we are programmed to reproduce. so it's natural to make a baby. everything about the action leads up to making a baby. take the baby out of it and it a useless action.

And about the Psychological mindset of them, if they were at affected about what they are doing, what words you say are just bringing up what they think. i mean, nobody should have to sugarcoat it. And if they really Can't handle the words, then they REALLY aren't up to the task of abortion.

Another interesting thing, since abortion is also damaging, why is it better than not doing the action? since u won't even have any damage psychologically, even in adoption too.

I mean, u did the action. if it was of your free will, i don't see why some else would have to pay for them and be rob of experiencing the life many of us like enough to fear it's end.

I don't think name calling is needed. i think those people should just say "those people who kill there babies". Get to the point. no special name needed.

I mean, It could be a case of life threatening, which then is okay. Though if there is a Mother who would give up their life for their Child, Well... whoever is the father better realize who He just lost.

Now rape is somewhat of a grey area (Losing will to type on subject)

(also i would like to know what reason someone would have to not be able to put a baby up for adoption but still be able to afford abortion?)

 

[Esper]

Hard decisions are not psychological torture. If a person feels bad because they are unable to grapple with worldview that believes abortion is "taking a life", that is not psychological torture. And just because it's hard doesn't mean it's not murder. There are more intricate ways of "taking a life" than abortion. I don't see how this passage refutes TheTorraRegion's claims.



That's quite the diluted interpretation of "natural" and "programmed". I don't think I'd feel good about myself if I reasoned the reason I'd have sex is because "it's natural" and "I'm programmed to do so". We do it because it feels good. We do it /recreationally/. It's for fun. And since we're raised in a society in which we do things for fun, we tend to forget and push aside the natural consequence of pregnancy. We try to separate the two, pregnancy and sex are two different things - the former is a decision while the latter is natural - I'm sure that many people can tell you it's the former that's natural and it's the latter that's a choice.

Also, abortion is not the only option. Adoption is an option. Caring for the child is an option. Now, if we are mindful of the assumption that a pregnancy should not affect my quality of life and others, then yes abortion is the only option. But we have to be mindful when we say we /must/ or /mustn't/ do something.



That logic only applies if the mother's body is in danger. And if the only thing that matters is that the mother's expense of resources, wouldn't that justify the termination of the pregnancy whenever she likes, because it should be /her/ choice over /her/ resources? Parents do not have that level of control over their children, even though they supply all the resources involved in raising a child - we have laws that project a responsibility to protect onto parents. Clearly, that tells me that the mother's "ownership" of resources cannot be a deciding factor in when or if an abortion should occur. There has to be another way to justify when a woman can choose to cancel her continuing a pregnancy/

The psychological torture can come from other people, such as protestors outside of the local Planned Parenthood. You may not feel that what you're doing is murder, but when strangers start throwing hate at you it's, well, torture is one word people can use.

Perhaps calling it "natural" is oversimplifying it, but we do have hormones and most of us have a desire for some kind of sexual activity. Obviously that's not an excuse to do anything, but when you and another person mutually want to do something that your bodies are encouraging you to do, that is a mix of the "natural" (or maybe "emotional" is a better word) and, what, the "rational" I guess is as good a word as any.

Although I'm of the mindset that "whenever she likes" is a good rule of thumb for abortion, there is a lot of grey area between "mother's life in danger" and "whenever she likes" that should give someone who isn't of my mindset something to consider. Some women develop certain conditions during pregnancy that may not threaten their lives, but can harm their health. The expenses of a pregnancy can mean a woman's unable to provide for a child she already has, too.

(also i would like to know what reason someone would have to not be able to put a baby up for adoption but still be able to afford abortion?)

Ah, there's a lot of stuff I could say in response to your post, but I just wanna respond to this one for now.

Pregnancy usually puts you in the hospital and there are lots of medical expenses that you'll rack up. Thousands and thousands. More if you don't have health insurance, or your health insurance isn't that great. If you have certain medical conditions (preclampsia, for instance) you may need extra tests and care for a long time leading up to actual birth. Take into account time lost from the pregnancy that could have been spent working and the cost is even higher.

Abortions, on the other hand can be only a few hundred dollars. They can be more expensive, true, but on the whole the costs are a lot lower.

 

[AzuGazer]

The psychological torture can come from other people, such as protestors outside of the local Planned Parenthood. You may not feel that what you're doing is murder, but when strangers start throwing hate at you it's, well, torture is one word people can use.

Perhaps calling it "natural" is oversimplifying it, but we do have hormones and most of us have a desire for some kind of sexual activity. Obviously that's not an excuse to do anything, but when you and another person mutually want to do something that your bodies are encouraging you to do, that is a mix of the "natural" (or maybe "emotional" is a better word) and, what, the "rational" I guess is as good a word as any.

Although I'm of the mindset that "whenever she likes" is a good rule of thumb for abortion, there is a lot of grey area between "mother's life in danger" and "whenever she likes" that should give someone who isn't of my mindset something to consider. Some women develop certain conditions during pregnancy that may not threaten their lives, but can harm their health. The expenses of a pregnancy can mean a woman's unable to provide for a child she already has, too.




Ah, there's a lot of stuff I could say in response to your post, but I just wanna respond to this one for now.

Pregnancy usually puts you in the hospital and there are lots of medical expenses that you'll rack up. Thousands and thousands. More if you don't have health insurance, or your health insurance isn't that great. If you have certain medical conditions (preclampsia, for instance) you may need extra tests and care for a long time leading up to actual birth. Take into account time lost from the pregnancy that could have been spent working and the cost is even higher.

Abortions, on the other hand can be only a few hundred dollars. They can be more expensive, true, but on the whole the costs are a lot lower.

:O i see... then again, if u don't have health insurance. why not just get it done at home? -3- simple and cost effective.

 

[voltianqueen]

Should also mention that not everyone is willing to actually go through with a pregnancy and childbirth. That's actually something I fear.

 

[Kanzler]

The psychological torture can come from other people, such as protestors outside of the local Planned Parenthood. You may not feel that what you're doing is murder, but when strangers start throwing hate at you it's, well, torture is one word people can use.

"Torture" does not come from the absence or unavailability of abortion itself. People who harass others should be punished, but they're two separate things. I reject that having someone tell you "abortion is taking a life" as torture.

Perhaps calling it "natural" is oversimplifying it, but we do have hormones and most of us have a desire for some kind of sexual activity. Obviously that's not an excuse to do anything, but when you and another person mutually want to do something that your bodies are encouraging you to do, that is a mix of the "natural" (or maybe "emotional" is a better word) and, what, the "rational" I guess is as good a word as any.

I disagree, or at least object, to how you describe it as "something your bodies are encouraging you to do". Given such a loose application of what "your body urges", I could describe having cocoa or wanting to play soccer as "something my body is encouraging me to do". There is a hormonal component to everything that we do - sure, sex has its own stimulus pathways - but that in itself doesn't make it different from any other behaviour. I don't like how this language implies that sexual activity is some how exempt from the rest of one's agency - it's misleading. It's sex, and it's a behaviour. It's not very otherly, and we shouldn't hold it in some mystique it doesn't deserve.

Although I'm of the mindset that "whenever she likes" is a good rule of thumb for abortion, there is a lot of grey area between "mother's life in danger" and "whenever she likes" that should give someone who isn't of my mindset something to consider. Some women develop certain conditions during pregnancy that may not threaten their lives, but can harm their health. The expenses of a pregnancy can mean a woman's unable to provide for a child she already has, too.

My point with respect to this passage:

That logic only applies if the mother's body is in danger. And if the only thing that matters is that the mother's expense of resources, wouldn't that justify the termination of the pregnancy whenever she likes, because it should be /her/ choice over /her/ resources? Parents do not have that level of control over their children, even though they supply all the resources involved in raising a child - we have laws that project a responsibility to protect onto parents. Clearly, that tells me that the mother's "ownership" of resources cannot be a deciding factor in when or if an abortion should occur. There has to be another way to justify when a woman can choose to cancel her continuing a pregnancy.

... is that the mother's ground for having abortion does/should not come from the simple fact that she provides resources to the fetus.

I don't disagree with what you have to say otherwise.

 

[CoffeeDrink]

The horror. The horror, koff~

When I hear this argument, I instantly view all of the religious nuts and crazies who go nutso for this stuff. Fire bombings, shootings, stabbings, violent sit-ins, etc. If you walk around saying violence and death is bad, then you shouldn't be walking around promoting violence and death for others.

I view these people the same as I view cop killers: these people are just trying to do their job. Sure, you say it's immoral, but it's lawful as of late, so clam the hell up. Just because this law is 'unjust' and a 'perversion of nature' does not lend you legal rights to attack abortion doctors or their patients. We can't have this, because it creates multiple issues involving laws, arson, and murder for hire (Abortion doctor 'hit-lists'). Fun to know that the wackos are on your side, huh? Weird and dangerous subject, koffi~

 

[Esper]

"Torture" does not come from the absence or unavailability of abortion itself. People who harass others should be punished, but they're two separate things. I reject that having someone tell you "abortion is taking a life" as torture.



I disagree, or at least object, to how you describe it as "something your bodies are encouraging you to do". Given such a loose application of what "your body urges", I could describe having cocoa or wanting to play soccer as "something my body is encouraging me to do". There is a hormonal component to everything that we do - sure, sex has its own stimulus pathways - but that in itself doesn't make it different from any other behaviour. I don't like how this language implies that sexual activity is some how exempt from the rest of one's agency - it's misleading. It's sex, and it's a behaviour. It's not very otherly, and we shouldn't hold it in some mystique it doesn't deserve.

I'm not saying "torture" is the only appropriate word, just one that might be depending on the situation. Particularly I was pointing to those instances where angry protesters yell at women trying to get into clinics, saying things like "You're going to hell for this" and stuff of that nature. For a women who might be in a tough spot because of various pressures because of an unplanned pregnancy it can be very stressful for her. And no, I'm not equating stressful = torture.

I was merely trying to say that humans are not 100% logic machines. We don't always act in our best interests and we can let our feelings/hormones/etc. get the better of us at times, particularly when we're teenagers. And yes, sex is something different because up to puberty you can have cocoa and play soccer and at puberty you're dealing with something altogether new. Again, I don't think hormones excuse all behavior, but I think one should allow for some room to make mistakes as we're not perfect and as long as no ill intent is behind one's actions we shouldn't come down hard on a person because they had sex.