Do you agree with abortion/euthanasia?

[doesn't matter]

Well, they wouldn't kill you unless you or a family member gave them the "okay".
And if you said beforehand that you didn't want it, they can't do it anyways.

A family member aye? You'd be cool with that? If they have power of attorney, they can do whatever they want on your behalf. Plus once you're dead that's it, you can't say that they killed you without your permission.

Your "okay" doesn't mean jack when you're dead.

https://opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=95000390

Many old people now fear Dutch hospitals. More than 10% of senior citizens who responded to a recent survey, which did not mention euthanasia, volunteered that they feared being killed by their doctors without their consent. One senior-citizen group printed up wallet cards that tell doctors that the cardholder opposes euthanasia.

 

[Tokin]

abortion-no, since there is an alternative(adoption) even though some might say it's not a human being, it WILL become a human being
euthanasia-only if the euthanized is fully aware of the consequences and able to make a choice, if not, the choice should be made by a competent physician and only if there is no chance of restoring functionality to the individual

 

[Penguin13]

What kind of society are we if we can't even protect the weakest of us?

What kind of society are we when we celebrate the weak and help them thrive?

A great example is of a disorder I totally forgot the name of. Before there were treatments for it, all of the people afflicted with it would die during their childhood, thus effectively removing the disorder from their gene pool. The disorder would've eventually become so rare, that when it did pop up, it would be a big event. But now that there's treatment for it, those afflicted are now able to live to about 30, having been able to have gotten married and had a child, possibly passing it on. Now, there's (percentage-wise) a LOT more cases of the disorder.

 

[Ascaris]

What people don't get is that adoption isn't like in those old Disney classics where you get whisked away to some home with a loving family and live happily ever after. Most adoption centers are packed with unwanted children. Living conditions are overall poor; most children don't even get an education. In America especially, children who are non-white or unhealthy rarely get adopted and they have to spend the rest of their life in misery.

Then there's overpopulation. We already have six billion people in our planet and that number is increasing by millions every month. Birth control is becoming a necessity; an abnormaly large population is a liability for a countries economy and shoving children into adoption centers isn't going to change anything.

A common pro-life argument is that the person might become famous, become a genius, cure AIDs or something. But these people don't understand that the child has the same chance of becoming the next Hitler or Stalin or whatever. Imagine how much bloodshed could have been prevented if Hitler's mother decided to abort him.

What I don't get is why people equate the parasitic 'life' of a foetus to a living breathing human being.

I am also for Euthanasia. If a person wants to die with dignity instead of meeting his end as the victim of some horrible disease then I believe he or she has every right too. But I don't believe that the decision should be made hastily. The person should consult with doctors and his/her family members before deciding.

 

[Tokin]

What people don't get is that adoption isn't like in those old Disney classics where you get whisked away to some home with a loving family and live happily ever after. Most adoption centers are packed with unwanted children. Living conditions are overall poor; most children don't even get an education. In America especially, children who are non-white or unhealthy rarely get adopted and they have to spend the rest of their life in misery.

Then there's overpopulation. We already have six billion people in our planet and that number is increasing by millions every month. Birth control is becoming a necessity; an abnormaly large population is a liability for a countries economy and shoving children into adoption centers isn't going to change anything.

A common pro-life argument is that the person might become famous, become a genius, cure AIDs or something. But these people don't understand that the child has the same chance of becoming the next Hitler or Stalin or whatever. Imagine how much bloodshed could have been prevented if Hitler's mother decided to abort him.

What I don't get is why people equate the parasitic 'life' of a foetus to a living breathing human being.

I am also for Euthanasia. If a person wants to die with dignity instead of meeting his end as the victim of some horrible disease then I believe he or she has every right too. But I don't believe that the decision should be made hastily. The person should consult with doctors and his/her family members before deciding.

your argument has some thruths, however, comparing having a hard life and dying, well, I'd choose the hard life, I'm all for birth control(morning after pill, contraceptives, condoms, that kind of thing, which is different from killing something which already is alive, maybe it's "parasitic" but will become a person in little time, remember that.

 

[Ascaris]

your argument has some thruths, however, comparing having a hard life and dying, well, I'd choose the hard life,

Your opinion doesn't hold the same for others. Kids in orphanages are quite prone to depression. They often think that they're at an orphanage because their parents don't want to have anything to do with them. Sometimes they feel that the world would be better off without them. If you want I could pull out a number of news reports about children who have committed or attempted suicide in adoption centers.

I'm all for birth control(morning after pill, contraceptives, condoms, that kind of thing,

What you don't get that condoms, contraceptive pills, etcetera don't work some of the time. People take pills or use condoms and just get on with their lives. By the time that the woman realises that she's pregnant it'll be too late and abortion will be the only remaining option.

which is different from killing something which already is alive,

That depends entirely on what your definition of life is. Why kill bugs, worms and different animals everyday. We eat animals. What makes their lives less important than humans? What gives us the right to take away their lives?

Nothing is ever black and white.

maybe it's "parasitic" but will become a person in little time, remember that.

That is irrelevant. A foetus is not a person. I may become a person eventually but in the current state than it is not it cannot be defined as a human being.

 

[txteclipse]

Humans are humans from conception. You don't "turn into a human" at a certain age. The second sperm meets egg and fertilization occurs, you have a unique person with their own human, not parasite, DNA.

 

[Ascaris]

Humans are humans from conception. You don't "turn into a human" at a certain age. The second sperm meets egg and fertilization occurs, you have a unique person with their own human, not parasite, DNA.

Foetus' cannot be called fully human. They don't even display all the seven signs of life in the first two trimesters after conception.

Okay, look at this analogy. I am cutting of my arm. What makes it different from abortion?

 

[Tokin]

Foetus' cannot be called fully human. They don't even display all the seven signs of life in the first two trimesters after conception.

Okay, look at this analogy. I am cutting of my arm. What makes it different from abortion.

your arm will never develop into a human being, and yes, orphanages can be very hard on the kids there, but do you know what is worse? dying before you are even born

 

[devilicious]

I agree with both. If I state my reasons, then a flame war is certainly on its way. So I'll just say that I'm someone who would rather 'die' (or 'kill', whatever) than suffer or make others suffer due to that. And this counts to both euthanasia and abortion.

And to the poster above, you give 'life' too much credit.

 

[txteclipse]

Foetus' cannot be called fully human. They don't even display all the seven signs of life in the first two trimesters after conception.

Okay, look at this analogy. I am cutting of my arm. What makes it different from abortion?

Cutting off your arm doesn't kill you (unless you bleed to death, of course). And a fetus isn't "fully" human? You're either a human or you're not. And the so-called seven signs of life are a joke. Are children not alive because they're too young to reproduce? Are people in a persistent vegetative state or coma dead because they can't move? Are older people dead because they aren't growing anymore?

 

[Penguin13]

Cutting off your arm doesn't kill you (unless you bleed to death, of course). And a fetus isn't "fully" human? You're either a human or you're not. And the so-called seven signs of life are a joke. Are children not alive because they're too young to reproduce? Are people in a persistent vegetative state or coma dead because they can't move? Are older people dead because they aren't growing anymore?

Ok.. No.

The seven signs of life are JOKE? I don't freakin' think so! Let's go through the list, shall we?

1. Organized and complex body? Yes.
2. Need energy to stay alive (metabolism)? Yes.
3. Growth and reproduction (DNA)? Yes. (Your interpretation of "reproduction" is too narrow. Your DNA is constantly reproducing, so that counts. Everyone is constantly growing.)
4. Respond to stimulus? Yes.
5. Homeostasis (internal environment regulated)? Yes.
6. Evolve? Yes.
7. Ecological interactions? Yes.

Also, movement doesn't constitute life. By your reasoning, a tree is not alive because it can't move itself.

Technically, a fetus IS life, But is it human? Let's through the list, shall we?

1. The ability to reason? No.

A fetus is alive, but it isn't human. Not until it has the ability to reason. And that isn't until some trimester.

Oh and I care deeply about the youth in Asia /joke. But seriously, if a pet has cancer or is suffering beyond reason, they should be put down. I mean, do you want to let the one you love suffer because of your greedy beliefs?

 

[Corvus of the Black Night]

Great post, Penguin.

Euthenasia - when the person that wants it/asks for it. I don't think it's right for someone to do it without the patient's consent.

Abortion - Well, if you were raped, would you want to rear up that child knowing that 1) they will never see their father and 2) the memory of the rape lingering on in the existance of the child?

I know it sounds harsh, but rather have the child not live at all than live a painful life knowing he/she was the result of rape. Also, the same for someone who cannot support a child.

Slightly off topic but I thought I'd get this out now:
The horror of rape is highly undermined on the internet. I thought I'd point that out to you all making rape jokes. It's not funny, it's a very serious matter - it's a sexual attack. Just as you wouldn't joke about someone stabbing someone 20 times, don't joke about rape.

 

[txteclipse]

Ok.. No.

The seven signs of life are JOKE? I don't freakin' think so! Let's go through the list, shall we?

1. Organized and complex body? Yes.
2. Need energy to stay alive (metabolism)? Yes.
3. Growth and reproduction (DNA)? Yes. (Your interpretation of "reproduction" is too narrow. Your DNA is constantly reproducing, so that counts. Everyone is constantly growing.)
4. Respond to stimulus? Yes.
5. Homeostasis (internal environment regulated)? Yes.
6. Evolve? Yes.
7. Ecological interactions? Yes.

Also, movement doesn't constitute life. By your reasoning, a tree is not alive because it can't move itself.

Technically, a fetus IS life, But is it human? Let's through the list, shall we?

1. The ability to reason? No.

A fetus is alive, but it isn't human. Not until it has the ability to reason. And that isn't until some trimester.

Oh and I care deeply about the youth in Asia /joke. But seriously, if a pet has cancer or is suffering beyond reason, they should be put down. I mean, do you want to let the one you love suffer because of your greedy beliefs?

I'll admit that the source I first found/relied on for the seven laws of life was inaccurate. Your definitions only work in my favor, though. You just showed that a fetus (and zygote, etc.) is alive, and it's simple to see that something is a human if it's alive and has a human set of DNA.

As for your assertion that a human needs to be able to reason to be a human, that's fully an opinion. It's also discrimination. It would be like me saying all disabled people aren't humans. Personhood isn't determined by ability.

 

[Corvus of the Black Night]

I'll admit that the source I first found/relied on for the seven laws of life was inaccurate. Your definitions only work in my favor, though. You just showed that a fetus (and zygote, etc.) is alive, and it's simple to see that something is a human if it's alive and has a human set of DNA.

As for your assertion that a human needs to be able to reason to be a human, that's fully an opinion. It's also discrimination. It would be like me saying all disabled people aren't humans. Personhood isn't determined by ability.

So, when you put a dog down that's evil or something?

Hmm... I hate this crap where the line is so thin...

Anyways, people who are disabled are capable of reason, unlike a fetus. A fetus does not have a fully developed brain, and until that brain is developed it cannot possibly have potential for thought. That was rather discrimatory on your part, saying that disabled people were not capable of reason.

For God's sake, ducks are capable of logical reasoning. So if something is not capable of reason, then at that time, it is less advanced than a duck. And how many ducks are killed a year?

Besides, considering the population issue, it isn't as "evil" as one may think to use a bit of birth control. And, being male, you would not understand the hardship of the rape of a female, because a dude can screw as many people as he wants without having to really regret it (with the exception of STDs but that's a different matter), but a woman has to live with that fetus, growing in their body, for 9 months. Basically, a horrific experience is literally growing on the inside of them for 9 months. Do you have any kind of idea what that may do to someone's psyche?

And you can tell me to go straight to hell - I already know I'm going *wink*

Sidenote: I have not been raped, but I know someone personally who has. It is not something to take lightly.

 

[Gymnotide]

I don't know about this "human set of DNA" assertion.
How do you define "human" DNA? Every single organism in the world has some part of the DNA in humans.
What about people who have chromosomal disorders (Trisomy 21, Kleinfelter's, Turner's, etc.) who have extra chromosomes?
What if we infected every cell of an animal with human DNA? It would die. Would that count as having killed a human?

DNA is junk, imho. They're nothing but acids mixed into fun shapes.

 

[txteclipse]

So, when you put a dog down that's evil or something?

I'm not sure how this is relevant. Extrapolate, please.

That was rather discrimatory on your part, saying that disabled people were not capable of reason.

Wow. I never said that. I stated that disabled people are less able than those that aren't. And I was actually referring to physical ability, if that was ambiguous.

For God's sake, ducks are capable of logical reasoning. So if something is not capable of reason, then at that time, it is less advanced than a duck. And how many ducks are killed a year?

Gorillas are stronger than humans. By your logic, humans < gorillas. Again, personhood is not defined by ability.

Besides, considering the population issue, it isn't as "evil" as one may think to use a bit of birth control.

You enjoy making things up, it seems. Did I say I'm against birth control? No. If I get married, I plan to use a condom until my wife and I are ready to have kids, pending us deciding to have any at all. I am against things like the morning after pill which kill zyogtes, but I consider that an abortificant anyways.

As for rape, yes, it's horrible. It's one of the worst crimes imaginable. People that commit it should be locked up for life, as far as I'm concerned. But the child should not have to die for the crime of the father. And I'm not being insensitive to the mother: she should get free counseling and medical services, as well as the ability to put the child up for adoption. And her friends, family, and community should draw together to support her, but that's not something I can control. The consequences of rape are already bad: let's please not add the death of an innocent child to the list.

And you can tell me to go straight to hell - I already know I'm going *wink*

And why would I tell you that?

 

[Penguin13]

I don't know about this "human set of DNA" assertion.
How do you define "human" DNA? Every single organism in the world has some part of the DNA in humans.
What about people who have chromosomal disorders (Trisomy 21, Kleinfelter's, Turner's, etc.) who have extra chromosomes?
What if we infected every cell of an animal with human DNA? It would die. Would that count as having killed a human?

DNA is junk, imho. They're nothing but acids mixed into fun shapes.

Just because a LOT of our DNA is exactly the same as some animals, that doesn't make us animals. As you can see,

How do you define human DNA? "DNA usually occurs as linear chromosomes in eukaryotes, and circular chromosomes in prokaryotes. The set of chromosomes in a cell makes up its genome; the human genome has approximately 3 billion base pairs of DNA arranged into 46 chromosomes."

What about the people who have chromosomal disorders? They're no different than you and I, except that they'll probably die early and such. Our DNA is [I forgot the exact number, but I know it's really high]% exactly like a mouse, but do I have whiskers and a tail and am I really small? No. That tiny % of difference in DNA makes us what we are.

DNA is not junk. Where do you get that from? Seriously, you could just go inside one of your chromosomes, switch around a few base pairs, and die in seconds.

 

[Corvus of the Black Night]

I don't know about this "human set of DNA" assertion.
How do you define "human" DNA? Every single organism in the world has some part of the DNA in humans.
What about people who have chromosomal disorders (Trisomy 21, Kleinfelter's, Turner's, etc.) who have extra chromosomes?
What if we infected every cell of an animal with human DNA? It would die. Would that count as having killed a human?

DNA is junk, imho. They're nothing but acids mixed into fun shapes.

I'm taking it that you've never even studied genetics for more than 3 minutes. DNA is not just junk, it's a code for life, similar to a programming system.

Wow. I never said that. I did state that disabled people are less physically able than those that aren't.

Hmm... then I must have misenterpretated something.

Gorillas are stronger than humans. By your logic, humans < gorillas. Again, personhood is not defined by ability.

Well, what exactly makes humans better than any particular species? We're still fighting to survive, even if we use intellegence rather than our sheer strength to do it.

And that's not the point I was making. I was saying if we shoot ducks, which are capable of logical reason, then why is it that we can't kill fetuses, which are not?

You enjoy making things up, it seems. Did I say I'm against birth control? No. If I get married, I plan to use a condom until my wife and I are ready to have kids, pending us deciding to have any at all. I am against things like the morning after pill which kill zyogtes, but I consider that an abortificant anyways.

I'm not necessarily talking about you all the time *eye roll* I only mentioned you to point out that rape effects a woman more than a man. I guess I should clarify more often.

As for rape, yes, it's horrible. It's one of the worst crimes imaginable. People that commit it should be locked up for life, as far as I'm concerned. But the child should not have to die for the crime of the father. And I'm not being insensitive to the mother: she should get free counseling and medical services, as well as the ability to put the child up for adoption. And her friends, family, and community should draw together to support her, but that's not something I can control. The consequences of rape are already bad: let's please not add the death of an innocent child to the list.

But should an innocent child have to live with the blight of being the result of rape their entire life? I sure in hell wouldn't. The child would find out. There wouldn't be an escape from it.

Also, based on your logic, the government should also prevent people from using medication or drink coffee, as the contents of those and similar things affect the condition of one's ovaries/sex organs.

I don't think that the government should have the right to control whether or not we are allowed to have abortions. We should have the freedom to make our own decisions to whether or not we can abort a child. Whether or not you think abortion is wrong, both sides will win because there is a decision on the parent's part.

My ovaries are mine and mine solely, I think that I should be allowed to decide what to do with their contents, just like what a first time smoker decides to do with their lungs or a first time boozer decides to do with their liver. It may look bad to you, but it's my decision, and to be honest, it's not actually affecting you in any way, so why complain?

And the last part was a joke. Most people would tell me to go to hell after a rant like that XD

By the way, to all of those who are making their opinions on their religious beliefs solely, realize this - not everyone is the same dang religion as you. So keep your mouth shut unless you have some non-religious evidence to support your point.

 

[Penguin13]

My ovaries are mine and mine solely, I think that I should be allowed to decide what to do with their contents, just like what a first time smoker decides to do with their lungs or a first time boozer decides to do with their liver. It may look bad to you, but it's my decision, and to be honest, it's not actually affecting you in any way, so why complain?

By the way, to all of those who are making their opinions on their religious beliefs solely, realize this - not everyone is the same dang religion as you. So keep your mouth shut unless you have some non-religious evidence to support your point.

Quoted. For. Truth.

With my knowledge and your linguistic prowess, we could rule the world!