Do you think may and ash are meant to be i do.

[Pokemon Trainer Red]

I think May is better for Brock than Ash.

Err... Takeshi well is like 7-8-9 years older than haruka and i don't think the same. and also i'm a huge advancedshipper and that's another reason but less important in this talk XD

 

[Jesse GS the II]

For whatever reason 4Kids decided to put that snippet in there, the fact still remains Ash said it and won't ever change.

Yeah, Ash said it, but Satoshi didn't. And in my eyes, the Japanese version has precedence over the American version.

I don't believe Ash and May are destined for each other. They're just travel buddies. Ash is the mentor and May is the protege. Of course, I don't believe Ash and Misty are destined for each other either - again, they were just travel buddies, only there Misty was more of a sidekick who didn't do much (especially in Season 3 and onward). Really, I don't believe in any form of shipping - I believe in what the writers say on the show, and my speculations for the futures of the characters are based on what they've established.

(I know I made Ash and Misty a couple in my "Pok?mon: Intensity" fanfics on the Serebii Forums, but that was primarily a satirization of the entire notion of shipping, almost as if to say "Okay, they love each other - now what are you gonna do?")

 

[Arigeitsu159]

Yeah, Ash said it, but Satoshi didn't. And in my eyes, the Japanese version has precedence over the American version.

That reasoning is bull. The fact that Satoshi didn't say something does not discount the thoughts/feelings of Ash. Just because the American version doesn't follow the Japanese dialogue (Thank goodness too) exactly does not make better or worse than the Japanese version.

 

[Jesse GS the II]

That reasoning is bull. The fact that Satoshi didn't say something does not discount the thoughts/feelings of Ash. Just because the American version doesn't follow the Japanese dialogue (Thank goodness too) exactly does not make better or worse than the Japanese version.

Well, I think it does. 4Kids takes a lot of liberties with the dub version of "Pok?mon". You know the Season 6 episode "Gotta Catch Ya Later"? That sweet little montage of Ash and Misty clips from previous episodes accompanied by that heart-wrenchingly romantic song? Totally different in Japan - the montage featured clips of ALL of Ash's previous travel companions (that means Brock and Tracey in addition to Misty), and there was no song that insinuated that Ash and Misty were secretly in love with each other. The Japanese version of the episode was focused on Ash parting ways with Misty and Brock; the American version was mostly a festival of Pok?Shipping that just so happened to feature Brock leaving too.

And that's just one example of the things 4Kids does to the show. They change music, they cut out cultural references, they change eyecatches, they compress the credits, and I'm not even gonna get started on what they did to the first, fourth, and fifth movies. Pok?Shipping and AdvanceShipping have little or no basis in the events of the Japanese version, which is the original version of the show and is therefore the version I take more seriously.

Bottom line is, I'm not saying that Ash might or might not have feelings for Misty - I'm just saying that 4Kids is controlling it, not the Japanese producers.

 

[Arigeitsu159]

Well, I think it does. 4Kids takes a lot of liberties with the dub version of "Pok?mon". You know the Season 6 episode "Gotta Catch Ya Later"? That sweet little montage of Ash and Misty clips from previous episodes accompanied by that heart-wrenchingly romantic song? Totally different in Japan - the montage featured clips of ALL of Ash's previous travel companions (that means Brock and Tracey in addition to Misty), and there was no song that insinuated that Ash and Misty were secretly in love with each other. The Japanese version of the episode was focused on Ash parting ways with Misty and Brock; the American version was mostly a festival of Pok?Shipping that just so happened to feature Brock leaving too.

And that's just one example of the things 4Kids does to the show. They change music, they cut out cultural references, they change eyecatches, they compress the credits, and I'm not even gonna get started on what they did to the first, fourth, and fifth movies. Pok?Shipping and AdvanceShipping have little or no basis in the events of the Japanese version, which is the original version of the show and is therefore the version I take more seriously.

Bottom line is, I'm not saying that Ash might or might not have feelings for Misty - I'm just saying that 4Kids is controlling it, not the Japanese producers.

You make an excellent argument there. I'm not a big fan of shipping for any characters unless it's concretely and explicitly there because there's too much ambiguity between the relationships of the characters. But the fact still remains that Ash's feelings/thoughts aren't discounted because of Satoshi words/actions in the Japanese version.

As far as the editting goes done by 4Kids, our version is meant to be different than the original. They change the music and cultural references for an actual reason. Whether it makes the show better or worse is up for question, but the way people express their opinion about it, it is not absolute. As far as the movies go, if there was any bad editting in the first movie dub, it wasn't drastic enough to make the movie horrible. As far as movies go after Pokemon 4Ever, they have gotten progressively worse, but 4Kids can't be blamed entirely... yeah, maybe for bad dubbing as people like to say, but the storylines behind them are indeed Japanese original and as a fan since practically from the start, the storylines have gotten worse for each movie after 4 because of bad writing from the Japanese movie writers. I'm hoping with all my heart that this next one that seems to have a lot of potential is step up from the past three.

Keep in mind I don't hold the dub better than the Japanese or the Japanese better than the dub. Each brings it's own uniqueness to the table for the anime itself, but some of the unopened-minded posters here hail Japanese version as an absolute better than the dub and that's not true just because they say it is. Until someone can prove me to me they can do better, I will not take their complaints and whining seriously about the dub.

 

[Elite Trainer Raven]

They change the music and cultural references for an actual reason.

Lyrical songs, yes. But there's absolutely no excuse for changing background music that has no lyrics.

As far as the movies go, if there was any bad editting in the first movie dub, it wasn't drastic enough to make the movie horrible.

Let's see..unnecessary CGI additions, giving away the ending RIGHT IN THE BEGINING, changing Myuutsuu's reasonings for launching his counter attack (he originally questioned whether he was a creation of God or humans and what purpose he had for being brought to life, not the fact that he was being used as a Pok?mon), destroying all the basic series music and adding in a HORRID soundtrack of pop music that completely does not fit in with the movie at all, adding the lamest puns (the whole Minnesota Vikings comment wasn't really necessary), big errors (c'mon, you've been doing the show for years now 4Kids and you can't tell the difference between a Strike and Fuudin? Seriously, there wasn't even a Fuudin captured and cloned for cryin' out loud) and so forth.

As far as movies go after Pokemon 4Ever, they have gotten progressively worse, but 4Kids can't be blamed entirely... yeah, maybe for bad dubbing as people like to say, but the storylines behind them are indeed Japanese original and as a fan since practically from the start, the storylines have gotten worse for each movie after 4 because of bad writing from the Japanese movie writers.

Yes, because I'm sure cutting out the very begining of the fifth movie, which sets up the background story for the entire movie was all Japan's idea when the movie was being dubbed. ;)

 

[Arigeitsu159]

Lyrical songs, yes. But there's absolutely no excuse for changing background music that has no lyrics.

Okay, but changing the music is not changing the show drastically to the point that it blows. The background music is fine... and is changed for an actual reason...

From an interview with a Alfred R. Kahn, CEO of 4Kids:
A lot of aspects in your adaptations are changed from the original Japanese version. Some things like dialog, credits and names are changed for obvious reasons, but things such as music are re-done. Why do you feel this is necessary?

Only to make it more Western. We westernize it so that children in English-speaking countries will understand it, and to us that is very critical. It's a mixture of the westernization, the trying to make the music appeal to kids who are in the United States.

Although you think it shouldn't be changed, the people who show, market, and promote the show think otherwise, and I think they better grasp on the business than we do.

Let's see..unnecessary CGI additions, giving away the ending RIGHT IN THE BEGINING, changing Myuutsuu's reasonings for launching his counter attack (he originally questioned whether he was a creation of God or humans and what purpose he had for being brought to life, not the fact that he was being used as a Pok?mon), destroying all the basic series music and adding in a HORRID soundtrack of pop music that completely does not fit in with the movie at all, adding the lamest puns (the whole Minnesota Vikings comment wasn't really necessary), big errors (c'mon, you've been doing the show for years now 4Kids and you can't tell the difference between a Strike and Fuudin? Seriously, there wasn't even a Fuudin captured and cloned for cryin' out loud) and so forth.

As far as the movie goes... unnecessary CGI additions still didn't hurt the film... I see that only as a knit pick.
It's been a while since I've seen the first movie, so explain to me how they gave away the ending at the beginning 'cause I can't remember.
As far as Mewtwo's motives for his counter attack... yet again, our version was meant to be different. The target audience is different... do you actually think kids are going to be able to understand such complex issues as Creation by the hands of God or humans playing as Gods. The reworked reasoning behind it seemed to work pretty well, so I'm just going to see that as another knit pick over something blown way out of proportion.
As far as the horrid music goes... it wasn't as bad as you exaggerate. Yeah, there a bunch of loser pop artists on the album, but only two songs were actually played during the movie itself and and three at the end credits... so you're not convincing me much about the music on that. Additionally, since it was the first major motion picture here in the States, of course they're going to market the heck out of it by trying to put on big names on it to endorse it and make kids want to see it since those were the major artists of the time.
The puns... kid's show... kid's movie... of course the jokes may be ridiculous, but think about the target audience...
As far as the error goes on the captured "Fuudin", okay that was an error, but all movies have some error or another... LOTR with the car driving in the background... so even the greatest movies down to the sorriest ones have errors in it... so that argument doesn't suffice.

Yes, because I'm sure cutting out the very begining of the fifth movie, which sets up the background story for the entire movie was all Japan's idea when the movie was being dubbed. ;)

I had no idea that the first part of the movie was cut out since I've never watched, nor had the time to watch any of the Japanese movie counterparts. But aside from that, even if it was there, the movie itself was still kind of slow and kind of boring, along with Jirachi Wishmaker and Destiny Deoxys... Yeah, the dubbed version may have some inconsistenties and some things cut out, but that doesn't change the fact the movies are a little boring (at least compared to the first, second, and third movies)... which were originally written by Japanese writers.

But as I said before, people have their preferences, but that doesn't mean you can say one is absolutely better than the other. I may enjoy the dub more, but I will never say it's better than the Japanese version or vice versa because both are their own unique entity of the same concept. And until all they nay-sayers can manage to do something better, I will never take the complaints seriously, unless they actually have some merit to them.

 

[Jesse GS the II]

I'm now convinced of either two things:

1. Arigetisu159 has been brainwashed by 4Kids Entertainment.
2. Arigetisu159 is actually Al Kahn.

Okay, but changing the music is not changing the show drastically to the point that it blows. The background music is fine... and is changed for an actual reason...

From an interview with a Alfred R. Kahn, CEO of 4Kids:
A lot of aspects in your adaptations are changed from the original Japanese version. Some things like dialog, credits and names are changed for obvious reasons, but things such as music are re-done. Why do you feel this is necessary?

Only to make it more Western. We westernize it so that children in English-speaking countries will understand it, and to us that is very critical. It's a mixture of the westernization, the trying to make the music appeal to kids who are in the United States.

And you believe that? I have heard the Japanese background music - it's perfectly fine. A ten-year-old kid would have no problem with it.

Although you think it shouldn't be changed, the people who show, market, and promote the show think otherwise, and I think they better grasp on the business than we do.

Not everyone who works in big business know's what's best for the populace. Just look at the FOX network.

As far as the movie goes... unnecessary CGI additions still didn't hurt the film... I see that only as a knit pick.

The CGI didn't hurt the film, no, but it was an unnecessary waste of money.

It's been a while since I've seen the first movie, so explain to me how they gave away the ending at the beginning 'cause I can't remember.

That woman at the marina talking about how the tears of Pok?mon can bring dead people back to life. In the Japanese version, she's just telling the trainers that the storm is the worst she's seen in years.

As far as Mewtwo's motives for his counter attack... yet again, our version was meant to be different. The target audience is different... do you actually think kids are going to be able to understand such complex issues as Creation by the hands of God or humans playing as Gods. The reworked reasoning behind it seemed to work pretty well, so I'm just going to see that as another knit pick over something blown way out of proportion.

Dear God, they've gotten to you too! Kids can understand creation - I don't know about you, but I learned my religion at a very young age.

As far as the horrid music goes... it wasn't as bad as you exaggerate. Yeah, there a bunch of loser pop artists on the album, but only two songs were actually played during the movie itself and and three at the end credits... so you're not convincing me much about the music on that. Additionally, since it was the first major motion picture here in the States, of course they're going to market the heck out of it by trying to put on big names on it to endorse it and make kids want to see it since those were the major artists of the time.

Major artists? Who the heck had ever heard of M2M before this movie? Or since, for that matter.

The puns... kid's show... kid's movie... of course the jokes may be ridiculous, but think about the target audience...

The target audience doesn't deserve to be talked down to. The Japanese film was aimed at kids too, and it didn't have a single bad pun in the script.

As far as the error goes on the captured "Fuudin", okay that was an error, but all movies have some error or another... LOTR with the car driving in the background... so even the greatest movies down to the sorriest ones have errors in it... so that argument doesn't suffice.

Still, you'd think the dubbing company would know better. They ARE translating the movie, it'd help to get the details right.

I had no idea that the first part of the movie was cut out since I've never watched, nor had the time to watch any of the Japanese movie counterparts. But aside from that, even if it was there, the movie itself was still kind of slow and kind of boring, along with Jirachi Wishmaker and Destiny Deoxys... Yeah, the dubbed version may have some inconsistenties and some things cut out, but that doesn't change the fact the movies are a little boring (at least compared to the first, second, and third movies)... which were originally written by Japanese writers.

It doesn't matter if you thought it was boring, the point is that the legend at the beginning of "Heroes: Latios and Latias" was VITAL TO THE PLOT. By cutting it out, 4Kids had to create an entirely different backstory for the whole movie - some crap about an Aerodactyl and a Kabutops.

But as I said before, people have their preferences, but that doesn't mean you can say one is absolutely better than the other. I may enjoy the dub more, but I will never say it's better than the Japanese version or vice versa because both are their own unique entity of the same concept. And until all they nay-sayers can manage to do something better, I will never take the complaints seriously, unless they actually have some merit to them.

How many Japanese episodes have you seen? Can you honestly compare them side-by-side to the dubs? Because if you haven't, I wouldn't judge the "nay-sayers" so quickly. Because I HAVE seen the Japanese versions of several episodes, and I can securely speak for the majority of educated "Pok?mon" fans when I say that it's head and shoulders above the dub. Better acting, better music, better editing...and there's no concern that some outside company is mucking around with the storyline because they don't think little kids are smart enough to get it.

 

[MewthreeXL]

4kids isn't that bad.Imagine not having 4kids,then we wouldn't be able to understand it at all.

 

[Arigeitsu159]

I'm now convinced of either two things:

1. Arigetisu159 has been brainwashed by 4Kids Entertainment.
2. Arigetisu159 is actually Al Kahn.

You know, I was actually starting to gain a little respect for you because you made an excellent post a while ago, but now I see you as an idiot. I guess age doesn't always coincide with maturity.

 

[Jesse GS the II]

You know, I was actually starting to gain a little respect for you because you made an excellent post a while ago, but now I see you as an idiot. I guess age doesn't always coincide with maturity.

That was called "humor". It's apparently more well-received on the No Homers Club.

 

[Elite Trainer Raven]

Only to make it more Western. We westernize it so that children in English-speaking countries will understand it, and to us that is very critical. It's a mixture of the westernization, the trying to make the music appeal to kids who are in the United States.

Please do explain how in the world background music being changed affects ANYTHING in terms of understanding? Does silence really confuse children? Do sad moments really frighten them? Are kids so pumped on ADD that they need music that's synthesized rather than actually produced with real instruments to be able to keep up with the show? That's a really crappy *** excuse, I'm sorry. You take a scene filled with pumped up, lyricless music such as OK! playing during Juputoru's battle with Kekking and replace it with standard dub music, you basically ruin an entire mood of there being excitement and a change in tables.

 

[Arigeitsu159]

Elite Trainer Raven & Jesse GS the II,

Well, I concede. Obviously I don't know enough about the show to come up with any valid points anymore, especially after the last two posts from you two.. The dub sucks, plain and simple. Heck, no use in going on when you know when you're outmatched. You guys win. And just to show you I can honorably concede to you two, I will remove my sig below because I obviously can't defend the sucky dubs anymore. My hat goes off to you two. Heck, you guys should go into law or something.

My appologies to you for getting personal, Jess.

 

[Crystal Clair]

synthesized rather than actually produced with real instruments

I actually think that's cool of 4kids and are you positive that Japanese doesn't use the synthesized stuff because I remember it appearing in the Japanese versions as well.

The dub sucks, plain and simple.

The dub does not completely suck. I for one love it. You have to appreciate things you have and not envy what other people have. What if Pokemon wasn't dubbed at all?

 

[MewthreeXL]

That's exactly what I was saying.People wouldn't be able to understand it at all.

 

[Elite Trainer Raven]

I actually think that's cool of 4kids and are you positive that Japanese doesn't use the synthesized stuff because I remember it appearing in the Japanese versions as well.

You can count SEVERAL different instruments used in both openings/endings and background music for the Japanese version (and it's been shown as that for behind the scenes trailers of the movies). The dub, however, mainly relies on a guy who assumes he knows what kids wanna hear and a keyboard.

 

[Arigeitsu159]

These are my final thoughts on the issue and after this, I'm not going to say anything more about it.

It's already been established full and well that the dub sucks. I get that. But however, what I consistently hear time and time again is nothing, but complaining and little knit picks that as to why it doesn't image the Japanese version, etc.

Honestly, if the show sucks that bad, why don't people around here do something about it? People who work in business don't know what's good for the populace and apparently you do, so why don't you start doing something about it instead of constantly sitting here complaining about how aspects of the show are being done, how the concept is being marketed, or what-have-you. The only thing I see is "talk" and no "action". Apparently there are a lot of people who think the dub is utterly horrible, and perhaps it is. Personally, I think it's fine and I don't pay attention to some of the minor details people blow up out of proportion.

All I have to say is that if you're going to complain, do something to make it change. When fans found out that 'Angel' on the WB was getting getting cut from the air, they didn't just sit there and complain about it. People started to take action with petitions, writing letters, and stuff. They lost the battle though, but at least they tried to do something to make a difference. Yeah, the situation isn't similar here, but the point of action is.

I'm saying this with the utmost respect to everyone: If you complain and think you can do something to improve it, then do it, otherwise, quit whining about it because constantly knocking something that doesn't fit up to your expectations isn't do anything. If you're not part of the solution, you're a part of the problem.

 

[Jesse GS the II]

4Kids, as suggested by their name, isn't going to listen to the complaints of eighteen year old fans because that's not their target audience. Unfortunately, the 9-12 year olds that they aim the dub towards don't know they're missing anything and have no reason to complain. So if Elite Trainer Raven or Dogasu or myself sent them letters or e-mails grousing about the fact that they change the music and whatnot, 4Kids' likely response would be along the lines of "What do you care? We're not dubbing this show for you."

Besides, the dub doesn't completely suck - there are good aspects of it. But most of us take the good with the bad and learn to live with it. Basically, it's not hugely important to me that 4Kids release uncut and unaltered versions of every episode of "Pok?mon". All I've done is point out some things they could have done better that wouldn't have had a negative affect on their intended audience.

I close with a quote from "The Simpsons" that I often bring up after a lengthy criticism of 4Kids' treatment of "Pok?mon"...

MARGE: You know, Homer, it's very easy to criticize.
HOMER: Fun, too!

 

[Crystal Clair]

You can count SEVERAL different instruments used in both openings/endings and background music for the Japanese version (and it's been shown as that for behind the scenes trailers of the movies). The dub, however, mainly relies on a guy who assumes he knows what kids wanna hear and a keyboard.

I dont know about that. I try to study Japanese episodes and I remember some techno music from one of the episodes pretty clearly.

Honestly, if the show sucks that bad, why don't people around here do something about it?

Because just maybe there aren't as many complainers as you think there are. 4kids is not that bad.
And I'm fifteen fyi and my cousin who's also a fan of Pokemon is like ten and ten's in the main audience so dont say everyone's eighteen.
Sorry if I misunderstood

 

[P-Reaper]

Hahaha! Sounds a lot like the Simpsons. Bart and Lisa have been in the same grade for like... an X amount of years. XD

So have I. :(
jk How old is ash supposed to be now
and i don't think ash likes may like he does misty