c_dog said:well, guess what, you said salamence is better than charizard in terms of usefulness but i say you're way wrong(you said charizard makes mence look better, no?).
charizard is just as good as salamence if you are comparing their DD and physical sweep ability,
plus charizard is versatile enough to be an effective special sweepert(what i go with).
so i really don't understand where you're coming from with the whole "charizard just makes mence looks better" crap.
i think you're just horribly underrating charizard.
the fact that charizard can beat salamence 1vs 1 just makes him seem that much stronger.
charizard can do everything salamence can do, and more( DD/rockslide/hpflying/flamethower, these are in charizard's fortee too).
saying you've destroyed teams with your mence means nothing because i've destroyed plenty myself with zard. :/
Salamence has Rock, Ice, and Dragon. Intimidate takes care of rock and Dragon is never used anyway. Ice is pretty predictable, but is still a problem.and charizard has as much weakness as salamence. they're both weak to the standard rockslide and tbolt, and mence is weak to ice while zard is weak to water. the difference here is mence is slightly less fragile, but meh, not much of a difference.
salamence does have a lot more physical attack so it's a superior DD than zard. zard does have the belly drum alternative going for him though, and with salac that zard is arguably just as good.Lies. Salamence has a LOT more Physical attack. 2 DD'd Salamence HP Fly OHKOs Starmie. it would take Charizard more than it can afford to get.
so is Salamence. with a better Sp.atk stat too. unlike Charizard, it can alos mixed sweep. Charizard has far too low attack
the standard mence likes to set up DD, what can i say? when my charizard faces a standard mence it almost always DD on the first turn. i mean it's smart for the mence to DD really, i mean who would expect the charizard to actually stay instead of switching to a rock slider or icebeamer? so the switch is the perfect opportunity to set up DD(i mean, it's not like charizard has ANYTHING to take out salamence right?). i think even you would use DD, despite your claim that you would use rockslide. you just can't predict that charizard had dragon claw.Salamence should've Rock Slided first. you **** idiots keep having the pokemon you don't like do retarded ****
intimidate is huge. but all rest you say is meh. most water types carry ice beam with them you know. and most electric types come with bolt team, so meh. but yes intimidate is probably what separates salamence from charizard; that and his advantage in having lots more attack. this and the fact that charizard has blaze is why i like my charizard as a special sweepert(no need for att stat, blaze to use it to its full capability).unlike Salamence, it doesn't have intimdate to save it from rock
c_dog said:first of all the real lie is when you say you give credit where its due, while giving charizard zero credit.
salamence is statistically superior than charizard, but charizard has decent enough stats and enough variety in its movepool to be just as useful as salamence.
charizard@lefties [adament/jolly]
252att, 252speed, 6hp
-DD
-Earthquake
-Rockslide/Hp Fly
-Overheat
charizard@salac [adament/jolly]
252att, 252speed, 6hp
-sub/Overheat
-bellydrum
-earthquake
-Hp fly/rockslide
charizard@salac [modest]
252sp.att, 252speed, 6hp
-endure/sub
-flamethrower
-HP Grass/HP Ice
-dragon claw
being relatively unused, its movesets can go from being the "standard" DD set, or it can be something totally different.
i don't think its fair to judge charizard just by the fact that its an inferior DD dancer than mence when it can obviously do more than just DD.
this is why i disagree with you when you say mence makes charizard look bad, because it doesn't. charizard is still a good pokemon in his own right.
my favorite charizard is the special zard with endure, which is something that's probably never been seen by anyone. its biggest advantage is that people always expect it to be the standard DD zard and it being a special totally messes them up.
depending on which moves you use it can OHKO or 2HKO most pokemon, and after endure+salac, flamethrower ensures OHKO of almost any pokemon that are neutral to it.
this zard is also quite the swampert/dragon slayer depending the makeup of your team. if you have a swampert problem, sending out zard lures out swampert everytime to take flamethrowers, and hp grass finishes it. it works everytime.
if you have dragon/salamence problems, charizard's also great for it. the standard DD salamence gets outrun by charizard if you've given it max speed(its the truth the non-CB mence gets outrun).
I go with the grass set because my teams don't have mence problems and it's fun to lure out swamps and give them a nice surprise.
Anyway, i get a feeling i'm not convincing enough just by typing all this... my name on netbattle is "AsH OwnZed j00" or something like that(not sure where the caps go)... you'll know it when you see it. i'm usually on the smogon server. let me know your netbattle name and we can battle sometime.
hopefully i can change your mind about charizard because it's really quite useful.
i tend to stay away from OU's with movesets set in stone.. they're predictable and people know them too well.
except that if you don't suck you have an idea of their stats and standard moveset, but anyway...Using BL-UU pokemon works to your advantage sometimes because while they may be statistically weaker they are much more unpredictable.
salamence does have a lot more physical attack so it's a superior DD than zard. zard does have the belly drum alternative going for him though, and with salac that zard is arguably just as good.
and charizard has slightly worse sp.att but with STAB in flamethrower, and enough sp.att to use dragon claw and hidden power effectively. though, i guess mence is just as effective having STAB dragon claw instead of *insert fire attack*.. i hardly see any special mence but i guess they're just as good as the special zard.. but zard does have blaze going for it.
in terms of mixed sweeping, charizard although having inferior stats can use stab overheat which can make it at least comparable to mence.
the standard mence likes to set up DD, what can i say? when my charizard faces a standard mence it almost always DD on the first turn.
i mean it's smart for the mence to DD really, i mean who would expect the charizard to actually stay instead of switching to a rock slider or icebeamer? so the switch is the perfect opportunity to set up DD(i mean, it's not like charizard has ANYTHING to take out salamence right?).
i think even you would use DD, despite your claim that you would use rockslide.
you just can't predict that charizard had dragon claw.
Charizard cannot Choice Band, take physical hits on switch ins **** well, sweep after 2 DDs, and only have one predictable weakness.
every time I have run into a Salamene, it forced me to predict, switch, and hope it doesn't kill me.
charizard can DD and sweep after 2 DD, just not as good as salamence.
but like i said before, it can do so effectively enough so that they're two of charizard's many possible movesets, making it a far more unpredictable pokemon than salamence.
how unpredictable is salamence? it's either a DD or CB. heck, this coming from a guy who got called out by A.Coz for using roar on my salamence instead of fireblast.. :S
intimidate is huge. but all rest you say is meh. most water types carry ice beam with them you know.
and most electric types come with bolt team, so meh.
but yes intimidate is probably what separates salamence from charizard; that and his advantage in having lots more attack.
this and the fact that charizard has blaze is why i like my charizard as a special sweepert(no need for att stat, blaze to use it to its full capability).
as I said, I don't seek out n00bs.anyway, see you on netbattle.
what? charizard is faster than DD mence! if it has hp ice mence is OHKO before it can do anything. same for swamp because it's even slower. hp grass it. i've killed too many swamps with my zard, don't even try to pretend that swamps don't get killed by zard. most of them actually take at ~13% damage from flamethrower coming in and zard just kills them with hp grass the next turn, it happens practically every other game.you mean like it won't die because you neglected it's poor defenses?
this quote is golden. the funny thing most UU's aren't standard. they'd surprise you.except that if you don't suck you have an idea of their stats and standard moveset, but anyway...
UmbreonShadow said:I;ve been trying to post replies on this for two days, but can't for some reaosn or another. I've saved my original post on word at school, so i'll try and post it later. But for now, I want to add that most good swampys survive most non-STABed HP grass. Even my Magneton with max attack + modest didn't OHKO one of the good ones
UmbreonShadow said:IF a swampy has good enough sp. def to take a HP grass, it surely can take a flamethrower and recover enough HP to take an HP grass. Also Nicpert can help the healing process and set it up to take more damage.
c_dog said:er, you still missed my point. charizard can be used as DD like mence, it can belly, it can special sweep. it doesn't matter if mence > zard in DD and typholsion > zard in special because what makes zard great here is his unpredictability.
again, it's the fact that it can be effective using DD,
belly,
special set
all at once
that gives it a variety of moveset, hence unpredictablity.
you just don't know whether it's going to DD up or belly drum or special sweep you. what if you bring out blissey thinking it's a special zard and instead it turns out to be a belly zard? what if you bring out swampert thinking it's a DD zard and it turns out to be a special zard with hp grass?
funny you bring out "blissey". blissey stops all special sweeperts, not just zard. just because there's "blissey" doesn't make charizard a lesser special sweepert.
there are 5 more pokemon on the team who can take care of blissey. charizard can special sweep with the best of them.
the dclaw-endure-dclaw combo won't work if blissey is not taken down already(doesn't take a genius to figure it out, DUH!). if you're gonna go there you might as well talk about tyranitar with sandstorm
or anything with fakeout/extremespeed/machpunch and the like that ruins any berry users, geez.
And charizard ohko or 2hko most things that are normal resistence, despite your stubborn-ness to believe me.
and what do you mean most pokemon use hp grass? jolteon, zapdos, most of them still go with bolt beam. :/
some of them use hp grass because it's an alternative, and why not? alternatives are good.
what? charizard is faster than DD mence! if it has hp ice mence is OHKO before it can do anything.SWAMPERT.
same for swamp because it's even slower. hp grass it.
okay, here's your charizard:
~Charizard@Salac Berry
Hidden Power Grass
Hidden Power Ice
Dragon Dance
Belly Drum
Flamethrower
(moves and moves)
YOU KEEP LISTING MOVES AND MOVES AND MOVES AND **** POKEMON ONLY HAVE FOUR MOVES!
i've killed too many swamps with my zard, don't even try to pretend that swamps don't get killed by zard.
good for ****ing you. I've killed Moltres with my Heracross. good for ****ing me.
most of them actually take at ~13% damage from flamethrower coming in and zard just kills them with hp grass the next turn, it happens practically every other game.
Charizard takes 100% from about every rock slide.
and fine, don't seek me out :S just don't be surprised if you run into a special zard that destroys your entire team next time you're on smogon.
if that were possible. I'm putting it under Sunkern sweep on my list of possibilities.
i find it funny that even some of the best battlers like husk will take their time to fight "newbies" like me and give me pointers, but it's always the cocky arrogant ones who just talk the talk and too chicken to walk the walk. :/ suit yourself. you don't even sound like you've ever met a special zard since you even think swamps have a chance against it.
...what? why is swampert involved anyway? I just bring him us when you lack anything to counter him.
and yes everybody knows what heracross can do, but perhaps only you can't do anything about it -_-;; heracross is a good pokemon but saying nobody can do anything about it is an overstatement. how hard is it to predict when you know the opponent's moveset?
and UU's have inferior stats, but their movesets are less familiar. some UU's allow for some unique and effective movesets. this quote is golden. the funny thing most UU's aren't standard. they'd surprise you.
RAMBLINGS THAT I WILL NOT CONCERN MYSELF WITH DUE TO THEIR RANDOMNESS.
bellydrum works if you know how to use it at the right time :S it's not that hard, there are plenty of chances to do it. sub+belly also works because it activates salac. perhaps you're the noob if you don't even know how to use belly drum.
and even if charizard can't OHKO mence it can 2HKO it. if mence switches in a dragon claw it's good as gone because it's gone in the next turn.
and why do you bring out swamps when i say most pokemon still bolt beam? yeah most pokemon still bolt beam because there aren't many pokemon who are resistent to it. fact is bolt beamers destory salamence. swamps laugh in the face of bolt beamers but grass types laugh in the face of swampert -_- it's pointless.............. fact is you're pretending salamence doesn't have weakness and when i bring out he has a common weakness you bring out swamp... okay... yea swamp is bolt beam resistent but that doesn't change the fact for salamence. but if you're trying to make the point salamence + swamp makes a good team together then point taken, but charizard can also be paired with a pokemon resistent to water+tbolt+rockslide(could be swampert too, or venasaur).
your last couple sentences just proves that you still don't get my point. variety, and unpredictablity, is what makes charizard useful, the fact that you don't know what to expect from it. but i figure you'll never get it because you don't take me seriously. the fact that someone's arguing that a UU pokemon can be useful won't let you.
GOD QUIT REPEATING YOURSELF. YOU JUST RAMBLE ON ABOUT NOTHING.
@ice demon, i'm not arguing charizard>mence(god forbid), i'm arguing that charizard has a wide enough movepool and enough effectiveness so that it can be used with multiple movesets hence making it a very unpredictable pokemon.
...and you make me repeat myself even, becuase you repeat yourself with your RAMBLING.
charizard may not have as good stats but it can do what salamence does,
to less effectiveness do to worse stats.
**** THIS ****! I CAN'T TAKE YOUR RAMBLING ANYMORE! YOU SAY THE SAME THING OVER AND OVER AGAIN! THE REDUNDANCY POLICE ARE EXHAUSTED THANKS TO YOU!with the belly alternative, and using stab fire attacks. DD salamence needs a lot of sp.att ev's to OHKO skarms with fireblast, hence it doesn't have the ev's to go into its speed, that's why charizards are usually faster than it. most DD salamence also choose to have STAB with HP Fly and earthquake instead of rockslide. so yes, charizard does have a chance against DD salamence, especially with most people opting to DD on the first turn to try to get the speed advantage(and they figure with intimidate charizard can't possibly kill them with rockslide.. to their surprise the charizard uses Dclaw).
no, they're right because salamence needs 212 ev's in sp.att inorder to have enough sp.attack to OHKO skarms with fire blast. such is because it doesn't get stab unlike charizard, hence charizard almost always have the speed advantage on salamence.
people stoped caring about OHKOing Skarmory a long time ago.
c_dog said:what are you talking about??? what do you mean it can recover enough HP to take HP grass?? you mean with leftovers??? leftovers doesn't nearly recover enough HP for it to withstand a hp grass dude.
turn1
trainer withdraw certain pokemon weak to flamethrower, trainer puts in swampy
charizard uses flamethrower, swampy takes damage
turn2
charizard uses hp grass
swampy fainted
and there you have it. and no, flamethrower does enough damage to swampy that hp grass finishes it, even if swampy has lefties.
