Equality vs. Individuality

Toujours said:


>implying that it's easy to transfer schools
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Of course not. I didn't even hint at that. But do you have a better solution? Offtopic, yeah, but I'm quite curious.
At least in the US, you're only allowed to go to a different public school if you live in that district, and otherwise have to pay thousands of dollars a year for private school, which is often not an option for underprivileged families.

You're also making the assumption that if a uniform is required, somehow that makes parents less likely to educate their kids. They're not mutually exclusive; a school can have uniforms while the parents are being educated on how to not raise their kids to become bullies.
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Well.. to tell the truth, the best I can come to is an educational reform.

I also wonder how you reached the conclusion that if there is uniform > parents are less likely to to educate their kids properly? I said it about bullying.
I'm speaking from my own experience. I've been to 9 different schools in my life, 6 without uniforms and 3 with uniforms, so I have a large amount of experience on the matter, more so than the average person. I have experienced firsthand the same group of people both in a uniform and not in a uniform, and seen the different ways they act. In every case, the same group of people with uniforms was more attentive in class, more prepared to learn, etc.
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That's.. if that was a research I would have said that is quite an interesting result. But it's too black and white to be one. But there's not enough information to me to be able to conclude that school uniform has a negative or positive effect on the student. I can say that schools with the uniform just as you explained had more discipline than the schools without them. But I don't have experience, so I can't say. I can just say what I think is the cause.
You must have ignored my analogy as well, which is a shame because it was a very good one. I'll repeat it with more explanation for you...when you study at the same place that you hang out with friends, play games, and stuff like that, you're not as focused on school work. That's one reason why studying at the library is so effective - if you go there time and again to study, then when you arrive there, you brain recognizes it as "this is where I study", and pushes back other concerns in favor of studying. That's why having a designated study spot works so well.

Uniforms are the same idea. Students do not wear uniforms outside of school, for the most part (there are of course a few exceptions to every rule). Therefore, when they put on a uniform, they're telling their brain "it's time to go to 7 classes and learn things and pay attention". It's the exact same thing - it puts you into a studying mode that you normally wouldn't have been in, if you had been wearing everyday clothes.
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There was a part deleted by livewire.
Anyway, I did not ignore it. I just think it's not.. I can't find an appropriate word that describes how I feel about it. But I can say that I have a feeling that your conclusion from the previous paragraph has something to do with this. To be completely honest, I don't think a school uniform has an effect like that.. well I've said it before. Besides, kids with their own clothes can still do it. As I've said, it's more discipline. Good discipline, student awareness, and parental cooperation are probably the recipe for good results. School uniform? It can be an extra; not something that will give your scores a significant boost.
 
twocows said:
Bullying people because their shirt doesn't have a logo is not fashion, which is why I put the word in quotes. And even if it was, it's not a legitimate reason to bully people. Plus, there's no place for it in schools, which should be educational environments, not a place to show off your clothing and make fun of others'.
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Sounds like "there's one kid stealing marbles, so now everyone is banned from having them." Like it's already been said, kids will find anything to pick people out.

My last school doesn't have a uniform and it was actually better than schools I've been to with uniforms. I don't attribute the quality of the school to what clothes they're wearing though.
 
yasu said:
Sounds like "there's one kid stealing marbles, so now everyone is banned from having them." Like it's already been said, kids will find anything to pick people out.

My last school doesn't have a uniform and it was actually better than schools I've been to with uniforms. I don't attribute the quality of the school to what clothes they're wearing though.
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It's more like 20% of the kids are stealing 100% of the marbles and throwing them at the other 80% in an endless barrage of marbledom. Sure, if you ban marbles, they might start throwing used food scraps, but it hurts a bit less to be hit with a banana peel than a marble.

I think I may have taken that analogy a bit too far.
 
The problem here is that it's given too much thought and wildly blown out of proportion. Do you guys honestly believe that this happens? That if you don't wear Abercrombie & Fitch you get pushed into a locker by some jock? Let's turn off the Disney Channel. This is the stupidest, most overblown argument I've ever seen. Schools educate, nothing more. Uniforms are something practical, yes, but the effect it has on how well you do in school in nonexistant. Having a uniform won't make you study harder.
 
i think there shouldnt be uniforms because for one im alergic to cotton and whool cloth.2 because it takes away your right to express yourself(for those in america)
 
School uniforms... Expensive, uncomfortable jackets. Well, that's really my only problem xD I'm all for uniforms but they should be made to be as comfortable as possible (Tracksuit pants, loose shirt and a jumper in the school colours with a logo?) and affordable.
 
Freedom Fighter N said:
Of course not. I didn't even hint at that. But do you have a better solution? Offtopic, yeah, but I'm quite curious.

Well.. to tell the truth, the best I can come to is an educational reform.

I also wonder how you reached the conclusion that if there is uniform > parents are less likely to to educate their kids properly? I said it about bullying.
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The point I was making with that is what you said was "if you're bullied, go to the school. If the school does nothing, then transfer because it's a stupid school" as if it's really that easy.

There are solutions to schools that don't deal with bullying, actually. Schools get pressured by the overarching district, or in my case the diocese since I went to Catholic school for the last 3 years of my education. So if there's a problem with the school dealing with it, the next logical step is to go above their heads to the district, or the state, or if the problem is still not resolved the news because they always love a good "school not doing its job" story.

And the point I was making with that uniform/parents education is that the way you said it implied that they were mutually exclusive - the parents can educate their kids or uniforms can be implemented, but not both. What I'm saying is that they're not mutually exclusive, and that there's no test to be a parent so unless there's some sweeping reform in the next generation, uniforms do help.

That's.. if that was a research I would have said that is quite an interesting result. But it's too black and white to be one. But there's not enough information to me to be able to conclude that school uniform has a negative or positive effect on the student. I can say that schools with the uniform just as you explained had more discipline than the schools without them. But I don't have experience, so I can't say. I can just say what I think is the cause.
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If you don't have experience and I do, then my opinion is much more educated than yours, no? I think the difference here between people that don't like uniforms and people that do are the purposes of school. To me, school is for education. Hanging out with people and such is secondary to the purpose of educating students for the next stages in life, and everything that can give them that edge to their education is worth it to me. But to the people arguing the other side, it seems that the claim is that school and classes are also about being social with your friends, hanging out, generally being a kid. Call me a serious student, but in my opinion hanging out can be done outside of class, or in clubs after school, but not during class time when education is so important to our future.

There was a part deleted by livewire.
Anyway, I did not ignore it. I just think it's not.. I can't find an appropriate word that describes how I feel about it. But I can say that I have a feeling that your conclusion from the previous paragraph has something to do with this. To be completely honest, I don't think a school uniform has an effect like that.. well I've said it before. Besides, kids with their own clothes can still do it. As I've said, it's more discipline. Good discipline, student awareness, and parental cooperation are probably the recipe for good results. School uniform? It can be an extra; not something that will give your scores a significant boost.
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Actually, my opinion on that is from many study techniques taught to me in the past month or so to optimize my education at my college. I was encouraged multiple times by both experienced professors who know what their students do to study, and new TAs that are also in classes themselves and know what they do to study, to find a good study spot where I do nothing but study for that exact reason.

If you can find a way to discipline students to take school seriously without doing something similar to uniforms, I'd be happy to hear your plans. Honestly, yes, that is the ideal solution, students focusing in school with their own discipline with no need for uniforms. But this is not an ideal world, so ideal solutions aren't always feasible.
 
I think Toujours had it right that uniforms are there to remind you that you're at school for school, that it helps reinforce the idea that you're doing something different, something that's kind of separate from your own personal life. Just ask yourself if you think you'd pay as much attention if you could take all your classes by video from the comfort and distractions of your own room. I imagine uniforms as one of the points on the sliding scale of freedom/individuality/expression. If you're in school you're already forced to do a hundred and one things that you might not do otherwise so what's a uniform on top of that? Maybe one step more on the scale. If you're free to express yourself in other ways (as in you're not at a school that forbids makeup, or holding hands, or something like that) then it's not really all that big a deal. Certainly not something to cry "BUT MY FREEDOM!" over. Some can take the uniform idea and turn it into an ends instead of a means and that's missing the point and causing more problems than it's solving, but it's not something that makes wearing a uniform bad.

Of course I can only speculate from an outsider's position since I never went to a school that had uniforms outside of PE class. As a side note I do want to point out that uniforms can be something you take pride in, something that you would want to wear because it shows that you take school seriously or something along those lines. I know from my time in Japan that plenty of junior high and high school kids chose to wear their uniforms on the weekend for these and other reasons.
 
Yoshikkko said:
I agree with Landorus completely. While school uniforms do eliminate the bullying based on clothes or brands, that opens a lot of other options to bully someone. It's because people will always find something to pick on. When clothes is not an option, it becomes skin colour, sizes (big, thin, tall, short, anything), even the amount of money you have, and I think that's even more cruel.

I don't like the idea of uniforms. The idea behind is is to create equality, but actually, it creates a very judgemental environment. People who are left out will feel even worse, because when you're small, you can't understand why you are left out, you look the same like everyone else, right? Everyone wears the same, so why you? I was bullied very long and very badly in Elementary school, and I know exactly what it feels like. We didn't have uniforms, but bullies will always find something, no matter what.
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I agree as well. Thanks, Landorus.
 
I think uniforms take away your individuality and who you are. I would rather be made fun of everyday of my life wearing my clothes the way I want, then to have to wear the same uniform as everyone else. Your clothes are part of your personality in a sense. For those of you saying you like them because they make people not make fun of you that's stupid. You should be happy people make fun of you for not being everyone else :D.
 
I'm not brave enough to be an individual, so I'm all for equality. I do admire the idea of expressing yourself though. This topic is always debated and it never really has a winning answer. Societies like the American society has the best of both worlds. They're are individuals who are all about themselves, self-expression, etc.. Then they're are those who like the feeling of belonging somewhere. In some societies, one or the other is frowned upon. For example in some eastern cultures, like the Japanese, being in individual is frowned upon. It's always "We Japanese vs. Everyone else. Anyone else will bring shame and be ostracized. I, though, like to belong somewhere.
 
I'm all for school uniforms. It's pretty ridiculous how expensive and flashy school clothes are now. Girls wear really short shorts, which makes them look more like sleazy adults than actual students. At least if we all wore uniforms, fashion would be stagnant, and people of poorer taste or socioeconomic standing wouldn't be so ground into dust.
 
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