Even a Rattata can beat a Charizard if it uses the Right Technique!!

[Skip Shot]

Fire Blast has a wayyyyyyyy higher chance of hitting than Zap Cannon, which only has 50 acc. Zap Cannon is plain garbage, up there with the Hyper Beams. End of Forry discussion, it was replaced with a Gliscor anyways. Props to bobbery on that.

I agree with Vance, go with Cress>>> Crocune/ Bliss. Depends on if you want to replace your special wall, or just get a counter to SD HP Ice Luke and Mixape.

 

[.]

What? You're saying that, yet he's considering Fire Blast on Heatran and isn't that accurate, either. =/ You also said before "I vote Fire Blast on Heatran."

Anyway, I would go T-Wave >> Toxic on Pissey Bliss.

Zap Cannon has 50% accuracy. That's a very, very risky gamble, especially on someone like Forry. Fire Blast has 85% accuracy, more times than not, you'll connect a hit.

 

[Skip Shot]

Another thing bout Zap Cannon on Forry. Do me a favor and look at Forry's Sp. Attk. U see y Zap Cannon is not a good idea now?

 

[BobberyJo]

Mixape can do quite a number on your team. Infact, Lucario with HP Ice over Crunch does a hefty chunk as well. Mixape is slightly less problomatic, since you easily revenge kill it. However, nothing has an easy switch in (unless you predict Nasty Plot) Garchomp is your safest bet, however, if it carries HP Ice, you'll be in a lot of pain. It's really hard to cover up, but Cresselia can cover these weaknesses up:

Cresselia @ Leftovers
Modest
20 HP/252 Def/236 SpA
Reflect
Charge Beam/Thunder Wave/Psychic
Ice Beam
Moonlight

Psychic can take out Mixape with ease, and Charge Beam handles Gyara, Twave, however, opens up the possibility of crippling them to near uselessness. Even Lucario doesn't like Twave, since anything resisting Extremespeed (hint: Heatran) will come in and snab a quick kill.

Other than that, pretty solid team, Life Orb >>> Wiseglasses on Azelf please, it can 2HKO Snorlax with Psychic after a Nasty Plot with Life Orb attatched, which is nice.

That's not really true. Mixape:Flamethrower, Grass Knot, CC right?
Heatran switches in on Flamethrower and Grass Knot, OHKO'ing back with Earth Power
Azelf can swith into a CC and OHKO back with a Psychic.

Lucario:If it holds HP-ICE, Heatran can swith in on a Extremespeed or Hp-Ice, OHKO'ing back with a Fire Blast or Earth Power. If all else fails, Garchomp can revenge kill it.

 

[sims796]

First off, Zap Cannon is a great move on Forry. Yeah, inaccurate as hell, but you forget, as well as instant paralysis, his defence is so great, he can AFFORD to miss. Seriously, the only real way to beat forry is to either use a Fire move, or a boosted hit. Mainly, I'm talking bout Gya on the latter. Zap Cannon ruins all hope of him ever charging up. And as I said, he can afford the miss or two. Also, ZAP CANNON HAS A FRACKIN 120 BASE POWAH! It easily OHKO's Gya. It's the only way Forry can ever hope to beat Gyarados.

I also noticed this on Bobbery's post, couldn't be fa from the truth

Provides Wish support to guys on my team, particularly Forretress who lacks his own healing. Overall, nearly unbreakable as a Special Wall.
Protect is Ew. Softboiled works much better.

Um, it does have Wish. Why would it have both Softboiled & Wish? Protect allows it to survive to even get that Wish boost, and allows it to stall for Letovers recovery.

 

[Pogiforce-14]

That's not really true. Mixape:Flamethrower, Grass Knot, CC right?
Heatran switches in on Flamethrower and Grass Knot, OHKO'ing back with Earth Power
Azelf can swith into a CC and OHKO back with a Psychic.

Lucario:If it holds HP-ICE, Heatran can swith in on a Extremespeed or Hp-Ice, OHKO'ing back with a Fire Blast or Earth Power. If all else fails, Garchomp can revenge kill it.

Only one problem:

Unless Azelf has a speed boosting nature, it will be slower than Mixape and die to the following flamethrower. heatran is slower no matter what, and would die to a life orb boosted close combat. you also run the risk of your opponent predicting your switch, and using the flamehtrower /close combat on your azelf/heatran on their switch in. So they can't really safely counter Infernape.

 

[Aquilae]

I'm inclined to say Protect works better with Toxic. With Softboiled after a Wish, Blissey can heal up to max hp the following turn using Softboiled, quite good if its facing a moderately strong physical attacker that it can take a hit from (LO Mamoswine and stuff).

Pogiforce-14, did you even bother to read the team? His Azelf is Timid and his Heatran has a Scarf, and whatmore Garchomp is a decent check to non HP Ice Infernape.

 

[Pogiforce-14]

I read the team, but did not notice the scarf. even still, azelf dies to flamethrower, and heatran will die to CC. you can't safely switch into an Infernape in that case, unless you are certain they aren't going to use those moves, or out predict you.

Not saying they couldn't fair well against an infernape, but I'm warning against treating hte flaming monkey like a pushover either. if you get careless, the monkey will walk all over you. Save the heatran for revenge killing, and don't switch in the azelf. I don't really see the use of switching in a sweeper on another sweeper anyway. especially onet hat OHKOs most any other sweeper with flamethrower.

 

[sims796]

I'm inclined to say Protect works better with Toxic. With Softboiled after a Wish, Blissey can heal up to max hp the following turn using Softboiled, quite good if its facing a moderately strong physical attacker that it can take a hit from (LO Mamoswine and stuff).

Pogiforce-14, did you even bother to read the team? His Azelf is Timid and his Heatran has a Scarf, and whatmore Garchomp is a decent check to non HP Ice Infernape.

Blissey is still quite slow, and it may not, or most likely not, be able to survive the next hit before it even gets a chance to use Softboiled. If it uses Wish, most likely it will have gotten hit, and it wouldn't survive the next hit. It sounds like a good idea on paper, but I don't see it working in reality.

EDIT: Porygon, it is pretty simple to predict a Grass Knot or even a Close Combat coming from Nape. They switch in on 3 out of 4 of Nape's moves. They're cool as is.

 

[Dark Azelf]

I actually prefer Softboiled + Wish.

Say for example you wish on the switch in and they send in an SD Chomp, DD Tar, DD Gyara or anything. You now have to Protect next turn to heal, which either : -

1. You have to switch out immediately to stop said threats from statting up so wish wont heal Blissey.
2. Protect to heal which = A free stat up on the protect and then again on the switch out.


So Blissey can go through the entire game without being able to heal with Wish + Protect as it allows threats just to stroll in and DD, SD etc up in its face.


Softboiled is easier to manage, aka Softboiled on the switch in, get the hell out next turn, without taking up 3 turns just to heal and get out and Wish still supports the team when used in conjunction with it.

The extra pp of healing moves helps alot in stall wars too.



The only merit to protect is scouting for Pursuit, =/.

 

[sims796]

I still see it as too slow (& fragile, at least physically) to try & waste time with both Softboiled & Wish. Either way, with that set, she will get set up on with Softboiled or Protect. In both senarios, it's Wish, not Softboiled, that hampers you down. If you Boil on the switch, what's the point of Wish? If you use Protect to heal, you'll still get an SD in your face (ew) as with Softboiled. Now you'll just get KO'ed at full health. I see what you're saying, but I can't agree with it.

 

[Skip Shot]

I say get rid of protect on Bliss. Wish+ Softoboiled helps because:

A. Softboil restores Bliss' health
B. If u predcit the switch and use wish, then switch to a counter for whoever's out, you'll get a heal .
C. Granted, B only does wonders in late game.

You can't change that SD they're gonna use if you recover. Best you can do is switch away to a counter to whoever's out.

That's not really true. Mixape:Flamethrower, Grass Knot, CC right?

Not ALL mixapes carry that set, they sometimes switch around to things like HP Ice, T-Punch, SE, and I also saw one with EQ. That one sucked. On this team, a mixape who carries HP Ice will cause everyone but Crocune problems. Cress is a great mixape counter, and should be considered>> something.

Unless Azelf has a speed boosting nature, it will be slower than Mixape and die to the following flamethrower. heatran is slower no matter what, and would die to a life orb boosted close combat. you also run the risk of your opponent predicting your switch, and using the flamehtrower /close combat on your azelf/heatran on their switch in. So they can't really safely counter Infernape

It's called predict and switch dude. Everyone knows how to do that. Still, only Crocune can effectively come in and counter Ape. Do consider Cress.

 

[shedinjask]

Also, ZAP CANNON HAS A FRACKIN 120 BASE POWAH! It easily OHKO's Gya.

Agreeing with you up until this. Zap Cannon is 100 bp and Gyara survives. Forry's SAttk is bad and Gyara's SDef is good. It will leave a dent but won't kill.

I think Softboiled/Wish Bliss is a great idea. It sounds useful.

 

[sims796]

Agreeing with you up until this. Zap Cannon is 100 bp and Gyara survives. Forry's SAttk is bad and Gyara's SDef is good. It will leave a dent but won't kill.

I think Softboiled/Wish Bliss is a great idea. It sounds useful.

Whoops. My bad, it will greatly harm him, making it a 2hko. Regardless, it will stop Gya from ever setting up oin Forretress. Sure, his Sp.Atk is sucky, but it doesn't change the fact that it is still 4x weak to electric. Forry is literally set up fodder for Gyarados without Zap Cannon, and with his defenses, he can afford to miss once or twice.

As for Wish Bliss, going on the post above sheddy's, I had JUST countered those EXACT points.


I say get rid of protect on Bliss. Wish+ Softoboiled helps because:

A. Softboil restores Bliss' health

So does Wish & Protect.

B. If u predcit the switch and use wish, then switch to a counter for whoever's out, you'll get a heal.

That doesn't say why Softboiled is better than Protect. Hell, it doesn't make much sense.

You can't change that SD they're gonna use if you recover. Best you can do is switch away to a counter to whoever's out.

That was my point exactly, to counter Blissey being set up, and that sor of proves meh rite.

Plus, you are hampered with only three moves. At the very least, lose Toxic with WishBoil Bliss. If you're on such the defensive that you must use Softboil, you might as well remove Wish. I don't doubt Boil, but don't think it has a place with Wish, & vice versa.

 

[Skip Shot]

Compare Softboiled to Wish+ Protect for me.

Blissey used Wish!
Gyarados used Dragon Dance!
Blissey used Protect!
Gyarados used Dragon Dance!
Blissey's Wish came true!
Gyarados used Earthquake/ Waterfall.

or

X switched in Infernape.
Blissey used Wish!
Blissey used Protect!
Infernape used Swords Dance!
Blissey's wish came true!
Infernape used Close Combat.
Blissey blasts off with Team Rocket.

You see where I'm going with this, right? They come in, set up on you, then OHKO( ape does anyway) and sweep you out.

His Bliss should have Softboiled/ Seismic Toss/ Thunder Wave or Toxic/ Ice Beam or Flamethrower. Wish+ Protect just doesn't make the cut.

 

[sims796]

Compare Softboiled to Wish+ Protect for me.

Blissey used Wish!
Gyarados used Dragon Dance!
Blissey used Protect!
Gyarados used Dragon Dance!
Blissey's Wish came true!
Gyarados used Earthquake/ Waterfall.

or

X switched in Infernape.
Blissey used Wish!
Blissey used Protect!
Infernape used Swords Dance!
Blissey's wish came true!
Infernape used Close Combat.
Blissey blasts off with Team Rocket.

or

Blissey used Softboiled!
Gyarados used Dragon Dance!
Blissey switches out!
Gyarados used Dragon Dance!
Gyarados used Earthquake/ Waterfall.

Which is the senario that DA gave me.

You see where I'm going with this, right? They come in, set up on you, then OHKO( ape does anyway) and sweep you out.

His Bliss should have Softboiled/ Seismic Toss/ Thunder Wave or Toxic/ Ice Beam or Flamethrower. Wish+ Protect just doesn't make the cut.

That makes a bit more sense, but now you are srtaight up doubting the power of Wish BLisss entirely. That set isn't meant for healing herself - go with Softboiled alone. However, WishBliss is all about PASSING WISH TO OTHER POKEMON. Hell, look on Smogon if you really wuld like to know how that set works. However, Protect allows it to absorb her own Wishes if need be, maintaining her postition as special wall. Is it set up fodder? Only when used by n00bs, to be honest. That set up senario counters DA's post, not mine. Only Aqualie gave me a real reason to use both Wish & Softboiled. But then again, if you are doing that to handle those "weaker" (for lack of a better word) sweepers, like LO Mamo, you aren't acomplishing anything. That is a perfectly workable set, WishBliss, and it isn't about how that set funtions, it's about how it funtions with both Softboiled & Wish. You just proved me right, while showing you don't really understand how it works. Look on Smogon to get a better analysis.

 

[BobberyJo]

Well, guys I've tested out my team on shoddy, with Gliscor over Forretress as a Physical Wall.
It's won a lot more battles than its lost, (a lot lot more), put one thing that shut me down was (as I thought) Gyrados.

Many people in this thread seem to think Cresselia is a good choice. As much as I hate to say it, should I put it over Suicune?

Also with Blissey, I'd like help getting a final verdict.
Is the Wish-Protect combo better?
Or Should I go with Wish/Seismic Toss/Soft boiled/ Toxic or T-WAve

 

[sims796]

Depends. Sorry, we got off topic. It was more about Wish + Softboiled, than Wish +Protect.

In this particular team, you have no use for Wish passing, almost everyone here heals themselves.

 

[BobberyJo]

So, I was thinking about just going standard.

Aromatherapy/Seismic Toss/ Softboiled/ Toixc or T-Wave.

Which has more uses, Toxic or T-Wave?

 

[Skip Shot]

Enough Bliss Talk. Ur call on Toxic vs. T-Wave. Toxic is there to wear down walls, while Thunder Wave is there so you can hand off to someone for a sweep. I prefer Toxic, but u should make the call.