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Giratina ♀

what's your sign?
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    How do you feel about changes in styles of writing while the story is still progressing (points of view, like 1st person to 3rd)?

    For brief periods of time (like, maybe, a chapter or two), then a change in perspective is just fine - and can actually be quite a lot of fun. If you change from first person to third person a few chapters in and never-turn-back to the old way (ha ha, marvel at Giratina's bad-pun skills) then it doesn't sit very well.

    In other news, my new most wanted Pokémon of all time is a Shiny Groudon Bananadon.
     

    JX Valentine

    Your aquatic overlord
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  • I'm not sure, but wouldn't that just change around the purpose of the word "really?" If you say "to go really fast," the word "really" is an adverb (I think that's right) for the word "fast." If you say "to really go fast," the word "really" is an adverb for the word "go." So I guess it would depend on which word you want to emphasize?

    If it's just "to go really"/"to really go," then either way, it's just an adverb for the word "go." If you introduce the word "fast," to say "to go really fast" describes how quickly one goes either way. (Urgency would probably need to be added by saying "really needs to go." It's not really just "really to go.")
     

    Feign

    Clain
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    Actually, technically, it's still true that you're not supposed to split infinitives. It's just that most people tend to ignore this rule because a lot of the time, it's more awkward if you don't. (Just saying it's not really something that the English language did long ago and doesn't do anymore. It's more something English still does but most people completely blow off. It's hilarious how many rules this language actually has that people like to pretend don't exist or otherwise don't know about, really.)

    Now here's the fun part:

    Would it still be considered a rule, even if the language has changed since then? ;)

    I found it interesting that English used to have a lot more infinitives (verb endings) than it does now... I guess it would make sense, considering the several languages that influenced it... but yeah...

    As we know though, English, is ever-changing, and there is not much we can do about it... Language change can be forcibly slowed down (for several reasons), but it can never stop it.

    I swear though, in 100 years max, we'll be seeing 'internet speak' becoming the norm...

    On a side note, I bought a sewing pattern for my halloween costume today. XD
     

    Giratina ♀

    what's your sign?
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    I swear though, in 100 years max, we'll be seeing 'internet speak' becoming the norm...

    I would be happy to be dead by then.

    As for Halloween costumes, I haven't gotten past the planning stage yet... and assembling the items to cosplay a Sableye really shouldn't be all that hard.
     
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    I swear though, in 100 years max, we'll be seeing 'internet speak' becoming the norm...
    I once read an article in which a woman lamented that possibility as the "end of the English language". I wrote a rebuttal seeing it as the only obvious future, and the final step for our language.
     

    Negrek

    Am I more than you bargained for yet?
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  • I found it interesting that English used to have a lot more infinitives (verb endings) than it does now... I guess it would make sense, considering the several languages that influenced it... but yeah...

    As we know though, English, is ever-changing, and there is not much we can do about it... Language change can be forcibly slowed down (for several reasons), but it can never stop it.

    I swear though, in 100 years max, we'll be seeing 'internet speak' becoming the norm...
    Infinitives are bare verbs in the form "to <blank>" or just as the verb (thus "to go" or "go" are infinitives), not "verb endings." In your earlier post, what you were talking about was splitting infinitives.

    You're correct that language is ever-changing, but while I think that chatspeak/"internet speak" may be increasingly common in casual parlance, it's hardly going to replace formal English in matters where precision and descriptive power are important. Chatspeak isn't sufficient for things like legal documentation or scientific research, for example.
     

    Feign

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    Infinitives are bare verbs in the form "to <blank>" or just as the verb (thus "to go" or "go" are infinitives), not "verb endings." In your earlier post, what you were talking about was splitting infinitives.

    You're correct that language is ever-changing, but while I think that chatspeak/"internet speak" may be increasingly common in casual parlance, it's hardly going to replace formal English in matters where precision and descriptive power are important. Chatspeak isn't sufficient for things like legal documentation or scientific research, for example.

    Hmmm I guess it is because I had thought they usually were ended by them (-ing, -ed, -s etc), oh well. XD

    Though, I could see at least a few words from the internet, making its way into spoken/written English (an example could be like 'LOL')

    Reminds me of an article or something, where an Oxford prof, had talked about changing the English language to accept phonetical spellings of words, that is to say, the word would be spelt the way it was heard, regardless of proper spelling.

    But considering the change I've seen from old to modern early English... well I could see the language adapting again...

    The internet (or globalization) has probably sped it up 10 fold. But who really knows...
     

    Lana.

    *spin*
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  • How do you feel about changes in styles of writing while the story is still progressing (points of view, like 1st person to 3rd)?

    *shrug* I have no problem with it. It all depends on what the situation calls for, really. If restricting a scene to one character's perspective subdues an important or intense scene, then by all means change it to third person or another perspective if it makes the story better.

    And seeing as when I write both third person and first person I shift between different characters' perspectives, I can't really criticize someone else for doing so. xD
     
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    Negrek

    Am I more than you bargained for yet?
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  • Though, I could see at least a few words from the internet, making its way into spoken/written English (an example could be like 'LOL')
    Well, of course. But that hardly represents a dramatic linguistic shift.

    English definitely is (and always has been) adapting. I just think that suggesting that internetspeak is going to become the standard form of English in the future is going too far; I can also point out that there isn't even a consistent "netspeak," as various online communities develop their own dialects (there's a big difference between chatspeak, 13375p34k, and lolcat, for example). There are, of course, some near-universals like "lol" or "wtf," but there's not enough there to sway the entire language.
     

    JX Valentine

    Your aquatic overlord
    3,277
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  • You're correct that language is ever-changing, but while I think that chatspeak/"internet speak" may be increasingly common in casual parlance, it's hardly going to replace formal English in matters where precision and descriptive power are important. Chatspeak isn't sufficient for things like legal documentation or scientific research, for example.

    This.

    To add/emphasize, Feign, the truth is that while a lot of the grammatical rules are actually new compared to the language itself (such as, for example, the fact that punctuation didn't exist until the printing press came along), they're still used. What really pisses me off about the kids who say, "Well, times are a-changin'" is that most of them really use it as an excuse for not paying attention in class or otherwise doing the research or not bothering to proofread or find an editor who can for them. Just because you, in casual speak, might say "omg brb kthnx lolololol" doesn't mean that it's perfectly kosher to do it in writing. The formal, written language, while it changes here and there each century, will not deteriorate to the point of stupidity, unfortunately. While there is such a thing as contractions, there really is no reason to use chatspeak in formal writing; the acronyms and internet subculture are inherently not taken seriously by the academic circles, not to mention the most common acronyms would actually be bad form to use in a paper anyway (for example, IIRC). Except in the field of sociology because sociologists are a strange lot.

    Meanwhile, in fiction, it's a lot like seeing a Cockney accent rendered ridiculously. It's just not the way most people actually speak, and it's heavily, heavily unlikely that most people would unless they're joking or general society becomes a mass of 4chan-surfing, socially inept mouse potatoes. Considering the fact that this portion of society is, right now, a minority, I highly doubt there will be a sudden revolution in which over 75% of the English-speaking population suddenly learns English through illiterate thirteen-year-olds.

    The non-ranty answer to your question is that it depends on whom you ask. Some writing guides do say that it's still a rule (and for this, I say it's still a rule); others say it was discarded in the late nineteenth century.

    Feign said:
    Though, I could see at least a few words from the internet, making its way into spoken/written English (an example could be like 'LOL')

    So help me God, I will personally backhand anyone who actually tries to work this into a paper.

    Additionally, if my tone puts any of you off, I'll have to apologize, but seriously, this made me bristle:

    Would it still be considered a rule, even if the language has changed since then?

    People tend to use the "who does that?" line all the time, and it's really usually because people don't look crap up. Look. If you're ever tempted to violate a grammatical rule, go use our friend Google, not an excuse.

    Moreover, more things go into the evolution of a language than just what the kids are doing nowadays. Eventually, the kids grow up, and if they get away from a computer, those adults would actually be literate (or will at least be laughed at by the actual professional people). Evolution of a language comes not from simply what's overdone but also widespread cultural and technological changes. (Yes, the internet is a technology, but I'm talking about something like the addition of the concepts of paragraphs and periods when print came about because it was easier to understand the print if it was separated. I'm talking about changes to refine the language, not simply break it down. Moreover, I just don't believe we have a cultural revolution that would cause a sudden complete transformation of the language on our hands. We have a new means of communication, yes, but ultimately, the socially inept kids who can't live without the internet just equate to the same socially inept kids who couldn't communicate without Vulcan twenty years ago.)
     

    Feign

    Clain
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    This.

    To add/emphasize, Feign, the truth is that while a lot of the grammatical rules are actually new compared to the language itself (such as, for example, the fact that punctuation didn't exist until the printing press came along), they're still used. What really pisses me off about the kids who say, "Well, times are a-changin'" is that most of them really use it as an excuse for not paying attention in class or otherwise doing the research or not bothering to proofread or find an editor who can for them. Just because you, in casual speak, might say "omg brb kthnx lolololol" doesn't mean that it's perfectly kosher to do it in writing. The formal, written language, while it changes here and there each century, will not deteriorate to the point of stupidity, unfortunately. While there is such a thing as contractions, there really is no reason to use chatspeak in formal writing; the acronyms and internet subculture are inherently not taken seriously by the academic circles, not to mention the most common acronyms would actually be bad form to use in a paper anyway (for example, IIRC). Except in the field of sociology because sociologists are a strange lot.
    No no, I quite understand, that a written form [of the language] and indeed its respective grammar and punctuation is important, heck its what somewhat helps to keep the spoken language in check.
    Meanwhile, in fiction, it's a lot like seeing a Cockney accent rendered ridiculously. It's just not the way most people actually speak, and it's heavily, heavily unlikely that most people would unless they're joking or general society becomes a mass of 4chan-surfing, socially inept mouse potatoes. Considering the fact that this portion of society is, right now, a minority, I highly doubt there will be a sudden revolution in which over 75% of the English-speaking population suddenly learns English through illiterate thirteen-year-olds.
    This is semi related, but the 13 year old thing reminded me of a novel, where some disease or something, had wiped out the entire world, save for people under the age of 13... So in a sense it was post apocalyptic... Though I can't recall, if it was a reset, or kids still died at the age of 13...

    The non-ranty answer to your question is that it depends on whom you ask. Some writing guides do say that it's still a rule (and for this, I say it's still a rule); others say it was discarded in the late nineteenth century.



    So help me God, I will personally backhand anyone who actually tries to work this into a paper.

    Additionally, if my tone puts any of you off, I'll have to apologize, but seriously, this made me bristle:



    People tend to use the "who does that?" line all the time, and it's really usually because people don't look crap up. Look. If you're ever tempted to violate a grammatical rule, go use our friend Google, not an excuse.

    Moreover, more things go into the evolution of a language than just what the kids are doing nowadays. Eventually, the kids grow up, and if they get away from a computer, those adults would actually be literate (or will at least be laughed at by the actual professional people). Evolution of a language comes not from simply what's overdone but also widespread cultural and technological changes. (Yes, the internet is a technology, but I'm talking about something like the addition of the concepts of paragraphs and periods when print came about because it was easier to understand the print if it was separated. I'm talking about changes to refine the language, not simply break it down. Moreover, I just don't believe we have a cultural revolution that would cause a sudden complete transformation of the language on our hands. We have a new means of communication, yes, but ultimately, the socially inept kids who can't live without the internet just equate to the same socially inept kids who couldn't communicate without Vulcan twenty years ago.)

    But I did mention it in passing, and somewhat as a joke, but for I had not spake it, thus unto which I erred to mention it thus... *get's shot*

    So if I have a question about old English grammatical use, I can go to you Val? :P XD *get's shot again*

    No but seriously, what we're learning is pretty interesting... :)

    In fact, I'm interested in the research assignment the prof alluded to. So many questions I could think of...
     

    Negrek

    Am I more than you bargained for yet?
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  • This is semi related, but the 13 year old thing reminded me of a novel, where some disease or something, had wiped out the entire world, save for people under the age of 13... So in a sense it was post apocalyptic... Though I can't recall, if it was a reset, or kids still died at the age of 13...
    Shade's Children by Garth Nix, if we're thinking of the same book. They weren't illiterate, though.

    Edit: Okay, so I guess it's probably not, since I think it was 16- in that case, and on their sixteenth birthday kids were taken away and their organs harvested for use in cyborg soldiers. For some reason I feel I've heard of a book along the lines of what you describe, though.
     

    Feign

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    Shade's Children by Garth Nix, if we're thinking of the same book. They weren't illiterate, though.

    Edit: Okay, so I guess it's probably not, since I think it was 16- in that case, and on their sixteenth birthday kids were taken away and their organs harvested for use in cyborg soldiers. For some reason I feel I've heard of a book along the lines of what you describe, though.

    Hmmm that doesn't ring a bell.

    If I recall in this one, these were things I remember from the book:

    * Gangs were formed
    * The main character was a girl at about 12 years old
    * She took care of younger kids
    * She knew how to drive
    * It was mentioned that gun shops and gasoline stores were raided
     

    Citrinin

    Nephrotoxic.
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  • How do you feel about changes in styles of writing while the story is still progressing (points of view, like 1st person to 3rd)?
    Provided the change is very clear, and separated by clear parts, and the change in perspective is warranted, I have no problem with it. :3
     

    Caliban

    Trying to change my life, brb~
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  • Hmmm that doesn't ring a bell.

    If I recall in this one, these were things I remember from the book:

    * Gangs were formed
    * The main character was a girl at about 12 years old
    * She took care of younger kids
    * She knew how to drive
    * It was mentioned that gun shops and gasoline stores were raided

    Is this the one where aliens spread a virus that killed all 13 +?
    And the only surviving adults were in a secret military bunker?
    And then the aliens started trying to enslave the youngsters to sell/keep on other planets?
    But two of the aliens rebelled?

    ...

    If that was the book, I very much enjoyed it. The kids became immune to the virus through exposure.

    How do you feel about changes in styles of writing while the story is still progressing (points of view, like 1st person to 3rd)?
    Pretty much what Citrinin said. Unless I've got a headache. Like now. In which case I feel like screaming at the author.
     

    Feign

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    Is this the one where aliens spread a virus that killed all 13 +?
    And the only surviving adults were in a secret military bunker?
    And then the aliens started trying to enslave the youngsters to sell/keep on other planets?
    But two of the aliens rebelled?

    ...

    If that was the book, I very much enjoyed it. The kids became immune to the virus through exposure.

    How do you feel about changes in styles of writing while the story is still progressing (points of view, like 1st person to 3rd)?
    Pretty much what Citrinin said. Unless I've got a headache. Like now. In which case I feel like screaming at the author.

    I don't think it was that, if anything, it could have been a military accident or something otherwise not done by aliens, however I can't remember much of the story, especially near the end... I just remember what you pretty much quoted, though it isn't much to go upon. :S
     
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    How do you feel about changes in styles of writing while the story is still progressing (points of view, like 1st person to 3rd)?
    I have to ask, why not? Writing is all about expressing ideas and feelings and perspectives... Characters have all these things, so limiting yourself to only one (or, worse, to all of them with omniscient) is more a hindrance than an expression of your work. As long as the point of view-change is handled well, in most cases from chapter-to-chapter or parts, then it's no problem at all. Anything more sudden, such as scenes or paragraphs would have to be handled subtly or bluntly and by an absolute master.
     

    Caliban

    Trying to change my life, brb~
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  • I don't think it was that, if anything, it could have been a military accident or something otherwise not done by aliens, however I can't remember much of the story, especially near the end... I just remember what you pretty much quoted, though it isn't much to go upon. :S
    .
    Ja kk.
    I think they thought it was military. So, yeah.

    I have Shade's Children. I enjoyed it mucho. *is whacked on head by Spanish teacher*
    Ja, ich tambien enjoyed das mucho!

    *is whacked on head by both Spanisch und Deutsch teachers*
     

    Misheard Whisper

    [b][color=#FF0000]I[/color] [color=#FF7F00]also[/c
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  • How do you feel about changes in styles of writing while the story is still progressing (points of view, like 1st person to 3rd)?
    I write strictly in third-person limited. I change viewpoints, but each change is denoted by a '***' and remains in 3rd limited. Sparkly-kun's view is that switching viewpoints in the middle of a piece throws the reader off. I mean, you're getting confused just reading this, right? I'm getting confused just writing it. Also, Sparkly-kun has been reading too much manga lately. Hence the honorifics.
     
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