First attempt at a competitive team

[d2m]

So apart from playing every game up through Sapphire and reading a few battle reports on these forums, I really don't have that much knowledge of Pokemon. Never really used EVs or any of these newer items/moves. I tried a few random games with this team and had mixed results, so I'd like some criticism and tips on how to improve.

Mamoswine@Expert Belt
176 HP / 116 Atk / 20 Sp.D / 196 Speed
Adamant Nature
- Ice Shard
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Toxic

SR starter, dragon revenge killer, and stall breaker with toxic.

Salamence @ Life Orb
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 80 Atk / 176 Spd / 252 SAtk
Rash Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
- Brick Break
- Roost

Mixmence for sweeping and getting the quick kill in on those pesky pokes.

Vaporeon @ Leftovers
Modest
Water Absorb
252 Defense
252 HP
6 Special Attack

Moves:
Surf
Wish
Protect
HP Lightning

Covers Gyarados, physical sponge, and wish passer.

Blissey @ Leftovers
Calm
Natural Cure
252 Def
176 Special Defense
76 Special Attack
6 Speed

Moves:
Seismic Toss
Thunder Wave
Softboiled
Ice Beam

Typical Blissey...not much else

Machamp @ Choice Band
Adamant
Guts
252 Attack
252 Speed
6 HP

Moves:
Close Combat
Sleep Talk
Stone Edge
Payback

Sweeper and status soak. I personally love bringing it out against blissey, anticipating the ghost type switch and 1 shotting it with payback :)

Jirachi@Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
252 SpA/176 Spe/80 HP
Timid Nature (+Speed,-Attack)
Calm Mind
Psychic
Grass Knot
HP Fire

Covers Scizor, subseed Breloom (use Machamp to take the spore), and most fighting and grass types.


OP updated with suggestions from the thread, thanks so far :)

The only teams I'm consistently having trouble with right now are ones that have Toxic Spikes and lots of stalls (CM Suicune, CM Cressy, Blissey, Hippo, etc).

 

[Anti]

Aerodactyl isn't necessary since quick SR doesn't really benefit this team. Lead with Swampert, but the moveset needs a lot of help:

Swampert @ Leftovers
Trait: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SAtk
Relaxed Nature (+Defense, -Speed)
- Earthquake
- Ice Beam
- Stealth Rock
- Roar

Does basically the same thing only it's more defensive, helps with your DDMence weakness, and stops Baton Passers.

Your thoughts on Houndoom are correct. It's a rather poor mixed attacker. If you want one of those, I would use Salamence (as it provides a much-need fighting resist):

Salamence @ Life ORb
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 80 Atk / 176 Spd / 252 SAtk
Rash Nature (+SAtk, -SDef)
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
- Brick Break
- Roost

MixMence. Destroys a lot of stuff.

Flawed team, but a very good team for your first try.

 

[d2m]

Aerodactyl isn't necessary since quick SR doesn't really benefit this team. Lead with Swampert, but the moveset needs a lot of help:

Swampert @ Leftovers
Trait: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SAtk
Relaxed Nature (+Defense, -Speed)
- Earthquake
- Ice Beam
- Stealth Rock
- Roar

Does basically the same thing only it's more defensive, helps with your DDMence weakness, and stops Baton Passers.

Your thoughts on Houndoom are correct. It's a rather poor mixed attacker. If you want one of those, I would use Salamence (as it provides a much-need fighting resist):

Salamence @ Life ORb
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 80 Atk / 176 Spd / 252 SAtk
Rash Nature (+SAtk, -SDef)
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
- Brick Break
- Roost

MixMence. Destroys a lot of stuff.

Flawed team, but a very good team for your first try.

Yeah, the Scalamence makes a lot of sense. But on the Swampert: If I get him with SR, should I re-do my Aerodactyl as something other than a suicide lead?

Also:

The extra EV points go in speed, right? (There are a couple extras). Without Waterfall, my team has no water moves, plus it makes torrent somewhat useless, you sure?

 

[Anti]

Yeah, the Scalamence makes a lot of sense. But on the Swampert: If I get him with SR, should I re-do my Aerodactyl as something other than a suicide lead?

Also:

The extra EV points go in speed, right? (There are a couple extras). Without Waterfall, my team has no water moves, plus it makes torrent somewhat useless, you sure?

You should just replace Aerodactyl to cover up your weaknesses (Vaporeon is a decent solution to beat Gyarados and MixApe while providing Wish support for Swampert). The extra EVs on Swameprt doen't really matter. 4 Spd is good to always outspeed other Swampert if you want.

A Water move isn't really necessary (though you'd have one with Vaporeon) on Swampert since Ice Beam covers most of what Surf hits (and EQ hits Fire-types)...and any team is fine without one as long as it can beat the threats a Surfing Pokemon usually is hoping to defeat.

 

[d2m]

You should just replace Aerodactyl to cover up your weaknesses (Vaporeon is a decent solution to beat Gyarados and MixApe while providing Wish support for Swampert). The extra EVs on Swameprt doen't really matter. 4 Spd is good to always outspeed other Swampert if you want.

A Water move isn't really necessary (though you'd have one with Vaporeon) on Swampert since Ice Beam covers most of what Surf hits (and EQ hits Fire-types)...and any team is fine without one as long as it can beat the threats a Surfing Pokemon usually is hoping to defeat.

Hmm. How would Vaporeon go against Gyarados? The way I had him set up was a sort of defensive build to counter baton passers and stat boosters:

Vaporeon @ Leftovers
Modest
Water Absorb
252 Defense
252 Special Attack
6 HP

Protect
Wish
Surf
Haze

I guess if Swampert is my physical soaker I can afford to go more offensive, but if he's offensive, I don't get why you would want him to have wish.

A couple of battles have just made it painfully obvious I cannot kill beefy water types with only one person knowing one supereffective attack against water <_< I'm thinking up something and I'll edit it in when I do.

How's this:

Jirachi @ Leftovers
Modest
Natural Cure
252 Defense
252 Special Attack
6 HP

Grass Knot
U-Turn
Recover
Toxic

I desperately need the grass move, and poison could come in handy.

 

[Jake♫]

Hmm. How would Vaporeon go against Gyarados? The way I had him set up was a sort of defensive build to counter baton passers and stat boosters:

Vaporeon @ Leftovers
Modest
Water Absorb
252 Defense
252 Special Attack
6 HP

Protect
Wish
Surf
Haze

I guess if Swampert is my physical soaker I can afford to go more offensive, but if he's offensive, I don't get why you would want him to have wish.

A couple of battles have just made it painfully obvious I cannot kill beefy water types with only one person knowing one supereffective attack against water <_< I'm thinking up something and I'll edit it in when I do.

How's this:

Jirachi @ Leftovers
Modest
Natural Cure
252 Defense
252 Special Attack
6 HP

Grass Knot
U-Turn
Recover
Toxic

I desperately need the grass move, and poison could come in handy.

HP Electric>Haze on Vaporeon, and it says "Hai Gyara. Bai Gyara.' in about 2 seconds.

The Jirachi is pretty meh. If you want to use it though, you could use a CM Jirachi or Specs Jirachi.

Jirachi@Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
252 SpA/176 Spe/80 HP
Timid Nature (+Speed,-Attack)
~Calm Mind
~Psychic
~Grass Knot
~Thunderbolt/HP Ice/HP Fire

That last slot depends on what you really need to kill. If you use HP Electric on Vaporeon, then scratch Thunderbolt and use one of the HPs (Ice for dragons, fires for Steels) depending on what you really need help killing.

Jirachi@Choice Specs
Ability: Serene Grace
252 SpA/176 Spe/80 HP
Timid Nature (+Speed,-Attack)
~Psychic
~Thunderbolt
~Grass Knot
~HP Ground/HP Ice/Trick

The first 3 slots are standard, the last on is preference. HP Ground to nail Heatran, HP Ice for Celebi and dragon types, and Trick if you really want to screw something over.

 

[Dark Azelf]

Agreeing on what anti said.

For Blissey 252 DEF / 176 SP.DEF / 80 SP.Att @calm. It needs maxed out def ALWAYS, since it then gives you the physical durability of a max hp Spiritomb or Scizor and so you dont die to Astonish lol. =/

I really dont like Aromatheraphy and passing up T-Wave for it is meh. Since without T-Wave Blissey fails to neutralize most threats and loses to stuff it should be beating like Nasty Plot Azelf. So yeah Thunderwave >> Aroma.

I have my doubts about Scarf Machamp and its still REALLY slow even with the scarf boost so cant revenge kill much. Id make it probably Choice Band.

Machamp@Choice Band
116 HP / 252 ATT / 140 SPEED
Adamant Nature
Trait : Guts
- Close Combat
- Payback
- Stone Edge
- Sleep Talk

With Sleep Talk you can switch this into sleep and status in general and get a cute guts boost, then you wouldnt need Aroma on Bliss. It would also give you some power something which you lack atm.


Vappy wants Max HP / Max Def @ Bold, Hidden power Electric >> Haze.


Scizor weak, both to CB and SD variants. Id put a Hidden Power Fire CM JirachI>> Mismagius since it does the same thing and beats Scizor.

Swampert is a pretty bad DD Mence counter since it gets OHKO'd with +1 DD LO Outrage. Id maybe consider Mamoswine >> It, if only for Ice Shard it also gets Stealth Rock.




Swampert / Mamoswine
Jirachi
Mence
Machamp
Blissey
Vappy

Something like this.

 

[The Hero Without a Name]

On CBMachamp, wouldn't you want 116 HP/252 ATK/140 SPD to beat out standard Skarmory (and 2HKO with Close Combat)?

 

[Dark Azelf]

On CBMachamp, wouldn't you want 116 HP/252 ATK/140 SPD to beat out standard Skarmory (and 2HKO with Close Combat)?

Well you can if you want, but most skarmory run more speed evs than than the standard (by like 4 or 8) to beat other skarm and other stuff that tries to beat the standard skarm's ev spread. So i figured why cut its bulk when they can outspeed you ? I see what you mean but eh x[

I suppose its useful to outpace standard CB Tar, so yeah ill edit that in my post.

 

[d2m]

Agreeing on what anti said.

For Blissey 252 DEF / 176 SP.DEF / 80 SP.Att @calm. It needs maxed out def ALWAYS, since it then gives you the physical durability of a max hp Spiritomb or Scizor and so you dont die to Astonish lol. =/

I really dont like Aromatheraphy and passing up T-Wave for it is meh. Since without T-Wave Blissey fails to neutralize most threats and loses to stuff it should be beating like Nasty Plot Azelf. So yeah Thunderwave >> Aroma.

I have my doubts about Scarf Machamp and its still REALLY slow even with the scarf boost so cant revenge kill much. Id make it probably Choice Band.

Machamp@Choice Band
116 HP / 252 ATT / 140 SPEED
Adamant Nature
Trait : Guts
- Close Combat
- Payback
- Stone Edge
- Sleep Talk

With Sleep Talk you can switch this into sleep and status in general and get a cute guts boost, then you wouldnt need Aroma on Bliss. It would also give you some power something which you lack atm.


Vappy wants Max HP / Max Def @ Bold, Hidden power Electric >> Haze.


Scizor weak, both to CB and SD variants. Id put a Hidden Power Fire CM JirachI>> Mismagius since it does the same thing and beats Scizor.

Swampert is a pretty bad DD Mence counter since it gets OHKO'd with +1 DD LO Outrage. Id maybe consider Mamoswine >> It, if only for Ice Shard it also gets Stealth Rock.




Swampert / Mamoswine
Jirachi
Mence
Machamp
Blissey
Vappy

Something like this.

I figured there was something up with my Machamp build when he got outsped and OHKO'd by a Purugly with Return <_< Sleep Talk makes a lot of sense and it'll help a lot with the Spore/Sub/Focuspunch Brelooms I've been seeing everywhere.

I have run into several Ice Shard/Endeavour/Earthquake/SR @ Focus Sash Mamoswines, is that what you'd suggest?

Yeah, I was considering replacing my Mismagius already, all it was really good for was surprising people with HP fighting and OHKOing physical walls with the STAB Shadow Ball. The HP Lightning thing on Vaporeon makes sense, so I guess I'll do that. Vaporeon will also fill the physical soaker void left by Swampert so that all balances out.

Thanks :)

Edit: After testing out that form of Mammoswine, it hasn't really worked out. It's fairly fragile and I lose my ground type, then I'm weak to anyone that can spam thunder wave and has heavy electrical attacks on their team. I'm back to Swampert for now.

Also: How do I take a Garchomp down? Right now, all I can really do is sacrifice whoever's out to the Outrage 1HKO then switch to Vaporeon and hope protect spam lasts till he's confused and I can get a lucky surf in. If he has a Lum Berry, he sweeps my team, nothing I can do.

 

[Dark Azelf]

Edit: After testing out that form of Mammoswine, it hasn't really worked out. It's fairly fragile and I lose my ground type, then I'm weak to anyone that can spam thunder wave and has heavy electrical attacks on their team. I'm back to Swampert for now.

Machamp can take t-waves since its already slow as heck and gets a guts boost (hence why its your status absorber) and so can blissey and so can mamo, thats like half your team. It may be the way you are playing your team perhaps ?

Besides Swampert loses badly to mence (LO DD Outrage OHKO's and special versions lol at it), so you might aswell keep mamo if to just revenge it when its locked into Outrage (nothing on your team can atm). There is also a bulky Mamoswine set up too iirc, you could use that.

Also: How do I take a Garchomp down? Right now, all I can really do is sacrifice whoever's out to the Outrage 1HKO then switch to Vaporeon and hope protect spam lasts till he's confused and I can get a lucky surf in. If he has a Lum Berry, he sweeps my team, nothing I can do.

Garchomp is uber so you wont be seeing it.

 

[d2m]

Machamp can take t-waves since its already slow as heck and gets a guts boost (hence why its your status absorber) and so can blissey and so can mamo, thats like half your team. It may be the way you are playing your team perhaps ?

Besides Swampert loses badly to mence (LO DD Outrage OHKO's and special versions lol at it), so you might aswell keep mamo if to just revenge it when its locked into Outrage (nothing on your team can atm). There is also a bulky Mamoswine set up too iirc, you could use that.




Garchomp is uber so you wont be seeing it.

RE: Mammo: What build would you suggest? Ice Shard, SR...

RE: Garchomp: Well that's a relief.

 

[Dark Azelf]

RE: Mammo: What build would you suggest? Ice Shard, SR...

Mamoswine@Expert Belt / Leftovers
176 HP / 116 Atk / 20 Sp.D / 196 Speed
Adamant Nature
- Ice Shard
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Toxic / Reflect

Evs let you survive a LO Electivires Cross Chop and a STAB Surf from 269 sp.att. 196 speed evs outpace Jolly Tyranitar (245 speed).

Expert Belt lets you OHKO Max hp tar and 4 hp Metagross, although you can still use leftovers.

 

[d2m]

Mamoswine@Expert Belt / Leftovers
176 HP / 116 Atk / 20 Sp.D / 196 Speed
Adamant Nature
- Ice Shard
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Toxic / Reflect

Evs let you survive a LO Electivires Cross Chop and a STAB Surf from 269 sp.att. 196 speed evs outpace Jolly Tyranitar (245 speed).

Expert Belt lets you OHKO Max hp tar and 4 hp Metagross, although you can still use leftovers.

So far it's working decently well, most of my losses have been learning experiences of what builds people like, etc.

The problem I'm having now is calm mind Cresselia...I lack any dark (she outspeeds Machamp and Psychic is OHKO) or bug attacks and CM spam with her moonlighting to keep HP up then psychic pretty much sweeps my team. Blissey can stall but will eventually be taken out once all the CMs are up. Most of this is end-game after both I and my opponent have incurred losses, but it's a frustrating scenario nonetheless.

Also, any suggestions how to deal with toxic spike stall teams? Double layer plus blissey/suicune/cress/hippo just kills me.

 

[Dark Azelf]

Dont double post please.

Toxic >> Moonlight cressy btw, use that on mamo if you have problems with it.


As for stall, well you cant really stop it tbh. You have to outplay them and NOT let them set up, and that mence is great at taking out stall.

You could always slap some specs on vappy if you want some more attacking power. Since you will find most of the stuff will set up on either bliss or vappy, so making it more offensive will give them less chances to switch in.

You might want to update the first post with what you have currently, this will help everyone help you.


Ill come back later but its kinda late and im cut short for time.

 

[d2m]

Dont double post please.

Toxic >> Moonlight cressy btw, use that on mamo if you have problems with it.


As for stall, well you cant really stop it tbh. You have to outplay them and NOT let them set up, and that mence is great at taking out stall.

You could always slap some specs on vappy if you want some more attacking power. Since you will find most of the stuff will set up on either bliss or vappy, so making it more offensive will give them less chances to switch in.

You might want to update the first post with what you have currently, this will help everyone help you.


Ill come back later but its kinda late and im cut short for time.

OP updated. As of now, I just have trouble breaking stalls. Without a Rapid Spinner, I'm vulnerable to spikes (I can usually take the Spiker out, but not before he gets 1-2 layers, plus the SR from the lead), and I have nothing that can take down the CM/rest Suicune...absolutely nothing. Jirachi just doesn't have the stamina (he's worn down eventually without a recovery move, Ice Beam just ends it), Vaporeon just doesn't do enough damage with HP (something like 20% before any CMs), Blissey is outstalled by PP (believe me, this happened a lot), and Machamp just dies before Suicune does to surf. I'm wracking my brain, but I can't really think of a way to remedy this with my current team...any suggestions?

 

[Dark Azelf]

Well you could use Starmie >> Vappy if you really want Rapid Spin and it still does kinda the same job. Although its kinda Pursuit bait and doesnt really help with stall because any well built stall has a Spin blocker and you lose Wish, so eh. I guess Wish on Blissey could work if you chose to do this.

Starmie@Leftovers
156 Hp / 154 Def / 200 Speed
Timid Nature
Trait : Natural Cure
- Recover
- Rapid Spin
- Thunderbolt
- Surf

Blissey@Leftovers
252 DEF / 80 SP.ATT / 176 SP.DEF
Calm Nature
Trait : Natural Cure
- Wish
- Protect
- Ice Beam
- Seismic Toss


Zapdos might work >> Jirachi with a LO + Roost set to help with cune whilst still covering Scizor well.

Zapdos@Life Orb
80 HP / 252 SP.ATT / 176 Speed
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Heat Wave
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Roost
Your evs/Natures are also messed up

Blissey wants 252 DEF / 80 SP.ATT / 176 SP.DEF

Machamp wants 116 HP / 252 ATT / 140 SPEED

I think another problem you have is that you lack anything to like stat up and inflict pain, you know, that SD Lucario/Scizor, DD Mence etc that every team has. Id probably make mence a DDer tbh.

 

[dark_seeker]

heres another mamo lead that i saw works like a dream..
Mamoswine (M) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Snow Cloak
EVs: 252 Atk/4 Def/252 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Earthquake
- Ice Shard
- Endeavor
- Stealth Rock
credits to steller for this set.

heres how to handle meta lead

Mamoswine used Earthquake
Metagross lost 80-90% of its health
Metagross used Meteor Mash
Mamoswine hung on with Focus Sash
--
Switch to anything that resists BP.and finish it.Then mamo can come in to endevour + Ice shrad any pokes slower than it.

 

[d2m]

heres another mamo lead that i saw works like a dream..
Mamoswine (M) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Snow Cloak
EVs: 252 Atk/4 Def/252 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Earthquake
- Ice Shard
- Endeavor
- Stealth Rock
credits to steller for this set.

heres how to handle meta lead

Mamoswine used Earthquake
Metagross lost 80-90% of its health
Metagross used Meteor Mash
Mamoswine hung on with Focus Sash
--
Switch to anything that resists BP.and finish it.Then mamo can come in to endevour + Ice shrad any pokes slower than it.

I tried that mammo before, he's a gimmick lead, but I need him desperately as a revenge killer late game, so I can't sacrifice him that early.

Also, Zapdos can't live an unboosted Bullet Punch after SR comes in, plus life orb sapping his health makes him not be able to stay in too long...I think I'm going to go back to Celebi, but maybe replace Psychic with Recover for sustainability.

 

[.]

Considering this is your first attempt at making a team, I'd like to congratulate you on it before I critique it. You managed to make a semi-balance between offense and defense, without being completely weak to many of the metagame's threats. Nice job ;) But enough of being nice, it's onto the team itself...

That Mamoswine lead you have currently is nice, so I'll leave that alone. The main thing I want to look at is your Salamence. Yes, I realize you run the "superior" MixMence, and I know everyone's going to go crazy when I say this, but seriously; try the New MixMence. Outrage / Draco Meteor / Earthquake or Brick Break / Fire Blast is what I use currently, and while a lot of people are bound to go crazy using "theory" to prove its inability to deal damage, I've used it on all of my teams currently, and it deals more damage, pound for pound, than the MixMence you currently use. I realize losing Roost is a real bummer, but considering the job OF a wall-breaker is to break walls, you'll find "New MixMence" has an easier time handling things that don't die to Draco Meteor. Outrage hits Blissey harder than Brick Break anyway, though locking yourself in may seem "game-breaking". Honestly, try it out, and if you still feel like it, use the old one.

Most of the threats (Salamence, Gyarados, etc...) are pretty much covered by your defensive core, although one thing that bothers me a bit is Infernape. "But Vance, he has Vaporeon!". Yes, but he has no insurance against Swords Dance Infernape. After a Swords Dance, Close Combat OHKOs Vaporeon with Stealth Rock (even without, you get KOed 46% of the time). Blaze Kick handles Jirachi, Stone Edge takes care of Salamence, and the rest of your team is battered so badly I won't even mention it. Luckily, SD Ape is rare, but the point remains; it 6-0s you. You could consider Starmie, since it "sort of" counters Gyarados with the correct spread, although you have to make sure you outrun Infernape and can KO it with Surf. Ironically, Swords Dance Lucario isn't as big as a problem, but only because of Jirachi.

Good job for your first team. Most threats are handled are just plain beaten into submission.