Garchomp is broken ?

[sims796]

I think the general conclusion is that Garchomp is too strong for standard play, proven further by the lack of any good argument against it and how many arguments (note the first post) that are in favor of it. Until somebody proves it to be weak enough for standard play, I think we have no choice but to ban it.

BTW the Registeel calc proves its ultimate superiority in the universe :)

Also, Luvdisc is famous for being bad...I think Azelf was being sarcastic ;)

The fact that you had to explain that is annoying. Very annoying indeed.

Anywhoo, we cannot ban it on our own. Despite te overwhelming quality of arguments for banning it, this affects every battler here. What if every other battler outside this group has some sort of arguments for it, and are not for the ban? They would have to go elsewhere, and we want to avoid that. At the very least, they need to see this, and put in their opinion. Then if we ban it, we can say that we had let them post their opinion, and considered it, or at least gave them the chance to put their imput.

 

[Ársa]

Can we ask Blueberry to lock this thread and move it to the Wireless Battling Forum? We can have 1 final post with everything summed up, then have a poll or w/e.

Just a thought.

~T_S

 

[Romo_Owens]

Well first of all, I don't know why whoever posted this brought up Suicune and Slobro as 2 of 3 OU bulky water pokemon... where's Swampert? Meh, whatever, irrelevant.

Anyways Fist of all, when it is said that if we move up Garchomp to Uber no one will use him, I think that's a mistatement. It's shares it's overall base stats with the latis and Mew, plus it outruns the majority of ubers (10 of them, decided not to include Deoxys), and at least one of it's 2 STAB combos takes out Latis, Rayquaza, Giratina, Palkia and Dialga. With Swords Dance, it can OHKO all of them except Giratina. An SDChomp (assuming it's already boosted) would give Groudon a lot of trouble, And it's final moveslot can determine what other Pokemon it can take out. Stone Edge takes out Ho-Oh and Lugia (Mostly Ho-Oh can't really do much to Lugia) and Crunch takes out Mew Deoxys and Mewtwo and is something to work on from wobbuffet (if Garchomp is packing outrage, Crunch is useless). However, Garchomp would run into a problem on setting up SD. To get it, it either needs Mew baton pass support or switch into a Pokemon that is really afraid of it. Really, there's only a few pokemon that would cause it a lot of trouble:Giratina is very hard to take out because of it's walling capabilities and an STAB Garchomp is weak to, Kyogre causes it trouble by packing ice beam, and having no weaknesses to Garchomp, and Lugia, simply, straight out Blocks it. It will want to Watch out for stone edge, but a calm or careful Lugia with a healthy EV boost on defense will take 29-34% (unless SD boosted in which case it may be a problem.
Anyways, I guess I flew off topic. To be honest, I think Garchomp should stay where it is. Of course it's a huge threat throughout the OU enviornment, but it has pokemon tyhat it is afraid of. THe best strategy to use against it is to bring in weavile, Garchomp will be afraid of an ice punch, flee but on it's way out be hit by Pursuit. Bronzong can put it to bed and gyro ball it a few times, jolly or CS Garchomps fall after a couple. And yes Ice attacks aren't all that rare. Donphan packs ice shard, Hippowdon packs Ice Fang, heck even that standard Jolteon can OHKO it with Hidden Power (electric). I know you said that it's wrong to keep a pokemon OU because it would suck at Uber but why make a great Pokemon inferior, when it's just a threat in OU?

 

[sims796]

To be honest, I think Garchomp should stay where it is. Of course it's a huge threat throughout the OU enviornment, but it has pokemon tyhat it is afraid of. THe best strategy to use against it is to bring in weavile, Garchomp will be afraid of an ice punch, flee but on it's way out be hit by Pursuit. Bronzong can put it to bed and gyro ball it a few times, jolly or CS Garchomps fall after a couple. And yes Ice attacks aren't all that rare. Donphan packs ice shard, Hippowdon packs Ice Fang, heck even that standard Jolteon can OHKO it with Hidden Power (electric). I know you said that it's wrong to keep a pokemon OU because it would suck at Uber but why make a great Pokemon inferior, when it's just a threat in OU?

Maybe you should really read all the damn post that was made. We countered EACH AND EVERY ONE OF THOSE "COUNTERS".

Jolteon cannot switch for it....

Frack it. In fact, READ THE FIRST DAMN POST! Understand it! Hidden Power Electric? What's wrong with you?ONLY A CB ICE SHARD CAN OHKO. Not everyone has that, and it can't wall as much. Hippowdon? IT BOOSTS GARCHOMP BY ACTIVATING SAND VIEL.

Your explainations are half thought, and has been countered already. I am sick of people posting without seeing if there half arsed theories have been countered.

Don't wanna get mean, but seriously. How many times must we deal with this?

 

[Ársa]

Can we ask Blueberry to lock this thread and move it to the Wireless Battling Forum? We can have 1 final post with everything summed up, then have a poll or w/e.

Just a thought.

~T_S

How about it sims???

~T_S

 

[sims796]

Not a damn bad idea, because I've had it up to here _-_(the top one) with all these post that makes no sense, and has no real thought to it.

 

[Ársa]

~Why Garchomp Should be Banned~​

This thread has been used to discuss whether or not Garchomp should be banned from OU play. Our reasoning is that Garchomp has too few counters, and these counters are never a 100% chance. For instance, if Garchomp is in play with Sandstorm, it's evasion is increased by 20%. This means that a Choice Band Weavile using Ice Shard has a 4/5 chance of hitting Garchomp, which isn't bad, but if it misses, that is good game. Here are some calculations run by the people in Strategies and Movesets:​

v ~Choice Band Garchomp~ v​

Garchomp@Choice Band
Adamant
252 Atk, 240 Spd, 16 HP (Min)
Sand Veil​

Outrage
Earthquake
Stone Edge / Dragon Claw
Fire Blast / Fire Fang / Dragon Claw​

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -​

Physical Walls:​

Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Hippowdon = 49.76% - 58.57%
Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Weezing = 61.98% - 72.75%
Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Skarmory = 27.84% - 32.63%
Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Forretress = 26.27% - 30.79%
Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Donphan = 53.91% - 63.28%​

"Supposed Counters"​

Outrage vs 252Atk/252Spd/6HP +Atk Weavile = 163.12% - 191.84%
Outrage vs 252Atk/252Spd/6HP +Atk Mamoswine = 107.73% - 126.80%
Outrage vs 252Atk/252HP/6Spd +Spd Mamoswine = 91.98% - 108.25%​

"Other"​

Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Blissey = 82.21% - 96.64%
Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Swampert = 62.13% - 73.02%
Outrage vs 252HP/8Def +Def Bronzong = 38.17% - 44.97%
Outrage vs 252Def/4HP +Def Wobbuffet = 62.07% - 73.18%​

v ~Swords Dance Garchomp~ v​

Garchomp@Life Orb
16 HP / 252 ATT / 240 SPEED
Jolly Nature
- Outrage
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Fire Fang/Blast​

People who think switching steels into Outrages is safe, think again =/​

As if the swords dance set wasnt scary enough...​

The following are calcs of Life Orb Swords Danced Outrage vs Common steel types​

Defender HP: 334
Damage: 146 - 172
Damage: 43.71% - 51.50%​

Max HP/Max Def Impish Skarmory​

Defender HP: 338
Damage: 166 - 196
Damage: 49.11% - 57.99%​

Max Hp/Max def Impish Bronzong​

Defender HP: 404
Damage: 185 - 217
Damage: 45.79% - 53.71%​

Max Hp/Max Def + Nature Jirachi​

Defender HP: 354
Damage: 146 - 172
Damage: 41.24% - 48.59%​

Max HP / Max Def Impish/Relaxed Forretress (With SR this is a 2hko)​

Defender HP: 364
Damage: 154 - 181
Damage: 42.31% - 49.73%​

Max HP/Max def Impish Metagross​

Defender HP: 386
Damage: 177 - 208
Damage: 45.85% - 53.89%​

Max HP / Max def Bold Heatran​

Non-Steels​

Defender HP: 420
Damage: 329 - 387
Damage: 78.33% - 92.14%​

Max Hp/max Def Impish hippowdon​

Defender HP: 354
Damage: 317 - 372
Damage: 89.55% - 105.08%​

Max hp / Max def Impish Gliscor​

Defender HP: 334
Damage: 326 - 383
Damage: 97.60% - 114.67%​

Max hp/Max def Bold Weezing​

Defender HP: 404
Damage: 336 - 395
Damage: 83.17% - 97.77%​

Max hp/Max def Bold Suicune​

Defender HP: 394
Damage: 346 - 407
Damage: 87.82% - 103.30%​

Max hp/Max def Bold Slowbro​

Defender HP: 404
Damage: 336 - 395
Damage: 83.17% - 97.77%​

Max HP / Max def Bold Cresselia​

Defender HP: 394
Damage: 429 - 504
Damage: 108.88% - 127.92%​

Max HP/Max def Impish gyarados (I didnt do bulky gyara, i did this for a laugh)​

Defender HP: 384
Damage: 326 - 383
Damage: 84.90% - 99.74%​

Max Hp/Max Def Impish Donphan​

Note : These ev spreads are not normal, some of these pokemon run less def evs than this, i used Max/Max to demonstrate how nasty this set is.​

The good news is that there is ONE steel that does not get 2/3hkod by a sd Outrage on this set, this is : - Max HP / Max def Steelix (31%-37%) =).​

Max hp / max def Bastiodon, probopass, Aggron, even Registeel get 3hko'd with sd outrage (Some of these get 2hko's if SR is up =/)​

To prove this​

Defender HP: 364
Damage: 139 - 163
Damage: 38.19% - 44.78%​

Max HP / max def + DEf nature Registeel.​

This is what i call Broken, its most common switch ins cannot live more than 2 hits from this set. Even the ones that can, you better pray to god that you havent taken ANY damage throughout the whole battle and that SR/Spikes, are not up.​

This set may also bit easy to revenge kill, but i hope you realize that if Sandstorm is up, things may be a little more difficult. Even more so that some/most of these Switch ins, DO NOT HAVE A Recovery move, so cannot come in more than once or twice.​

v ~Currently Strong Arguments For Banning~ v​

But seriously, the reason Garchomp is being considered is because of a few reasons. Yes, Garchomp has counters, just as all pokemon do. The problem is, because of it's ability, it is able to get around those counters. This means that at no point in time is there ever a guaranteed (100%) chance of a KO. All of Garchomp's "Counters" are still 2-3HKO'd at best. A counter (by definition) is something able to switch in and take minimal damage, with the potential to KO. This pokemon is switching into a STAB'd Choice Band 120 Base attack coming from a base 130 attack stat. You cannot afford to miss in this situation. You may say "But Skarmory/Forretress/Bronzong can easily counter Garchomp", but these pokemon cannot do anything back to Garchomp. If you switch into Outrage, only for it to end, your strategy goes out the window. None of these pokemon have access to a healing move other than rest, so you either lose them, or give your opponent time to set up while you sleep.​

The reasoning is, Garchomp has the ability to 6-0 any team. Even its counters need be wary. Revenge Killers such as Weavile and Mamoswine cannot switch into an Outrage, meaning to kill Garchomp you need to sacrifice another pokemon to do so. If Garchomp evades the Ice Shard, you're screwed. Again though, if the Outrage finishes, the Ice Shard option sticks out like...well, you know. Having to sacrifice a pokemon everytime Garchomp comes in is what makes it so hard to counter.​

~T_S​

SDchomp is walled by bulky waters (EVed correctly, of course). Very few Ice types stand a chance against Garchomp at all (not to mention STAB Earthquake does more anyways), so I would say the covering it's weaknesses thing is...well...overrated. Like everything in my mind is.

My one (and this is the ONE) concern I have is that every Garchomp set can be countered. While countering them is an epic chore with Sand Veil and its unpredictability, Garchomp has been OU long enough that we have shown it can be beaten. You could say that the CB set isn't countered by anything, but you can say that about other CBers as well, and many of them also have other movesets and movepool options.

You could make the case that all Garchomp sets can be handled by more than a few standard pokemon.

That being said, I am leaning more towards the "uber" argument. I just don't think that making decisions at an impulse (not to say research and critical thinking hasn't been done - it has) is a very good idea (just look at what happened with our friend Wobbuffet). At least Garchomp won't hammer the uber metagame like Wobby has hammered standard play though...but that's a whole other story.

I just wanted to state a counter-argument since I do think that before making a decision we should look at this from all angles possible. I actually agree with it going to ubers, but I don't feel as strongly as the others do.

Lets being with some background on Garchomp; a Ground/Dragon pokemon whose ability is Sand Veil, which causes an automatic +20% Evasion in Sandstorm. These are his base stats (Garchomp is a 600 Base Stat Total pokemon)

HP:108
Attack:130
Defense:95
Special Attack:80
Special Defense: 85
Speed:102

Garchomp's most notable moves are Swords Dance, Substitute, Earthquake, Outrage, Dragon Claw, Draco Meteor, Fire Blast, Fire Fang, Crunch, and Stone Edge. All of the sets on Smogon's analysis index use a combination of 4 of the above moves.

**Why is Garchomp too broken for OU?**

Before I go any further please note that a pokemon's viability in OU has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with how good a pokemon plays in the Uber metagame. A pokemon can completely suck and be outclassed in Ubers (See regular Deoxys) and this does not matter at all. As long as a pokemon is deemed broken in the OU metagame, it'll be banned to Ubers.

A "counter" is a pokemon that takes little risk when switching into an enemy pokemon and provides an immediate threat.

There are three primary reasons why I believe Garchomp is too broken for the OU metagame and should be moved to Ubers.
1.) Garchomp's excellent movepool and STAB options allow it to beat every single one of its "counters"
2.) Garchomp's excellent defenses and only two weaknesses require Ice/Dragon move users to have a lot of stat points in order to OHKO him.
3.) Sand Veil gives Garchomp +20% evasion under Sandstorm, allowing him to beat otherwise guaranteed counters/revenge killers.

Let me explain each of these points in greater detail.

1.)

The fact that no one pokemon can safely switch into Garchomp is an understatement. Let me present to you damage calculations on how much damage an Adamant Choice Band Garchomp with 252 Attack EV's does to its so called "counters." The most common of which are pokemon with a high Defense stat that are not weak to any of it STAB moves (a counter that's weak to any of Garchomp's STAB isn't going to be a counter much longer). The most common of these pokemon are: Cresselia, Bronzong, Skarmory, Gyarados (Intimidate factored), Gliscor, Weezing, Hippowdon, Donphan, Suicune, Slowbro. The EV spreads I used were either the ones meant to counter Garchomp or the one listed first in the analysis index on Smogon's website.

Using MetalKid's online calculator:
Crunch to 20Hp/252Def Modest Cresselia 53-62%
Fire Fang to 252Hp/4Def Relaxed Bronzong 56-66%
Fire Blast to 252Hp/0SpDef Impish Skarmory 64-75%
Stone Edge to 212Hp/180Def Adamant Gyarados 62-73%
Dragon Claw to 252Hp/252Def Impish Gliscor 38-45%
Outrage to 252Hp/252Def Impish Gliscor 54-64%
Dragon Claw to 252Hp/252Def Impish Weezing 42-49%
Outrage to 252Hp/252Def Impish Weezing 62-73%
Earthquake to 252Hp/252Def Impish Hippowdon 42-49%
Outrage to 252Hp/252Def Impish Hippowdon 50-59%
Earthquake to 252Hp/252Def Impish Donphan 45-53%
Outrage to 252Hp/252Def Impish Donphan 54-63%
Earthquake to 252Hp/252Def Bold Suicune 44-52%
Outrage to 252Hp/252Def Bold Suicune 53-63%
Crunch to 252Hp/252Def Bold Slowbro 56-65%

Every single pokemon on this list gets 2hko'd by CB Chomp except for Hippowdon (Hippowdon loses to SD Chomp). The ones that are only 2hko'd by Outrage (which is important cause this means Garchomp can't switch out until it ends) are Gliscor, Weezing, Hippowdon, Donphan, Suicune. None of these pokemon are capable of OHKOing Garchomp with these spreads. This means that all the pokemon without a reliable recovery moves WILL lose because they will get 3hko'd while the try to 2hko Garchomp. That means Suicune is out. Gliscor only wins with Roost (depleting Dragon Claw's pp), Donphan has Ice Shard (and NEEDS CB) to 2hko Garchomp before it gets 3hko'd, Weezing can Will o Wisp Garchomp (pray to good that it lands).

And remember this, if you attempt to revenge kill Garchomp by sacrificing one of the above pokes to Outrage, you also pray that garchomp doesn't get confused after only two turns (which means he can switch out again.)

I hope I've illustrated just how dangerous CBchomp is. The only "counter", Hippowdon, loses to the even more popular form of Garchomp because Swords Danced Earthquake will 2hko Hippowdon before you 2hko with Ice Fang.

CBChomp isn't the only version of Garchomp one must counter, however. Keep in mind that it can SD, SubSD that abuses Sand Veil, Scarf, and Chain Chomp. I'm not gonna post any specifics about the above sets (look on the analysis index to get more details) because I'm not as familiar with them as I am with the CB version. But, these sets provide other options for Garchomp to deal with the OU metgame. Garchomp is no one trick pony.

2.)

Now for all the people who like to revenge kill out there (Completely ignoring that Garchomp has the ability to be Choice Scarfed). First you must beat 333 speed if you are sure Garchomp isn't wearing a Choice Scarf. Second, take into account Garchomp's solid defenses. If your not relying on Ice or Dragon moves to OHKO Garchomp, then good luck because you're going to need it! These are the minimum stats one needs to OHKO Garchomp with the following moves, unSTAB'd: Ice pebble, Ice Fang, Ice Punch, Hidden Power Ice, Ice Beam, Dragon Claw, Dragon Pulse (I consider these to be the most common moves for dealing with Garchomp). Additionally, this is assuming Garchomp has absolutely no defensive EV's.

693 Attack Stat to OHKO with Ice Pebble
426 Attack Stat to OHKO with Ice Fang
370 Attack Stat to OHKO with Ice Punch
361 Special Attack Stat to OHKO with Hidden Power Ice
266 Special Attack Stat to OHKO with Ice Beam
693 Attack Stat to OHKO with Dragon Claw
567 Special Attack Stat to OHKO with Dragon Pulse

If you want to add in STAB or a Choice Item, divide these numbers by 1.5 or 1.3 for Life Orb. What these numbers suggest is that unless your an Ice type pokemon or going to lock yourself into an Ice move, be prepared to use A LOT of EV's to get your attack stats to these numbers. 2hkoing Garchomp is a little trickier because A.) you have to sometimes account for leftovers, (but just divide these numbers by two) B.) if your faster than Garchomp, must be able to survive an Earthquake or Outrage C.) if your slower than Garchomp, must be able to survive three of the above moves (good luck!)

So if you want to revenge kill Garchomp, be prepared to have amazing attack and speed stats or force yourself to lock into an Ice move (the Choice items can supplement your stat needs). And even once you've met all these requirements...

3.)

Sand Veil grants Garchomp +20% Evasion for free in a Sandstorm. This means that (assuming Sandstorm to be the near-ubiquitous enviroment that it is) at least 1 out 5 times, Garchomp will get a FREE turn because your move will miss. This is also assuming your moves are 100% accurate to begin with! For all those players who attempt to incapacitate Garchomp with WoW, Hypnosis, Sleep/Stun Spore, good luck because your going to need it for those moves to land. Here's a list of how accurate moves are on Garchomp under Sandstorm:

100% accurate moves turn to 80% (Almost all the Ice moves)
95% accurate moves turn to 76% (Ice fang)
90% accurate moves turn to 72% (Draco Meteor, Toxic)
80% accurate moves turn to 64% (Hydro Pump, Fire Blast, etc)
75% accurate moves turn to 60% (Sleep/Stun Spore, WoW)
70% accurate moves turn to 56% (Hypnosis)

So even if you've taken all the necessary precautions, the most dangerous pokemon in the game has at least a 1 in 5 chance to get a completely free turn. Better hope Garchomp isn't abusing Substitute or BrightPowder, that would get insanely frustrating.

There you have it. I've outlined all my reasons for Garchomp being too broken for OU. Now for some counterarguments that I heard in the previous thread.

What about all the countless other pokemon that need more than one "counter"?

Please explain why said pokemon is as dangerous as Garchomp. Most of these double counter pokemon are either really frail or have STAB options much inferior to Garchomp. Remember that Garchomp only has two weaknesses and solid defenses. In addition, Garchomp is immune Thunder Wave and can double his attack at a moment's notice. Please point out all the reasons that another pokemon is even more broken than Garchomp.

But Garchomp is too bad for Ubers and no one will use him there!

Read the big bold thing at the start of this thread (both of them)

Salamence, Tyranitar, Dragonite, etc, are really bulky pokemon that are hard to kill and sweep good, why not ban them?

Like I said, please bring up ways in which said pokemon are superior to Garchomp. Let me give you some examples and how they are worse:
-Salamence, Dragonite, Gyarados have a Stealth Rock weakness. This is HUGE. This means that every time that said pokemon switches in, you are 1/4 of a step closer to completely eliminating them (they have to sacrifice coverage to use Roost, dont bring it up). Garchomp actually resists Stealth Rock.
-The 4 main Dragon Dancers need that boost just to outspeed many of their counters (In other words, most bulky pokemon are really slow). Garchomp's speed is already fantastic as its 2 points above all the countless Base 100 speed pokemon.
-Swords Dance is practically the perfect move to aid a fast pokemon with amazing type coverage. All the other threats wish they were as fast and could double their attack stat at a moments notice.
-Garchomp's STAB options absolutely HURT at 150bp and 180bp and are only resisted by two pokemon, Skarmory and Bronzong. This is why most Garchomp's pack fire moves for unparalled type coverage.
-Tyranitar (IMO the only other debateable poke) has five x2 weaknesses and one x4 weak and is really slow. Garchomp has one x2 weak and one x4.

Blissey [insert any pokemon] are more overcentralizing than Garchomp, why arent we banning them?

Blissey isn't broken, and neither are those other pokemon. If you want to debate this, start a thread and list all the reasons why [insert any pokemon] here is broken.

I love Garchomp!

As do I, its the best pokemon in OU. This doesn't mean he isn't broken though, we have to get rid of our biases in order to create the most balanced OU metagame.

I hoped I addressed every issue as to why I think Garchomp is not only the deadliest pokemon in OU, but too broken as well. Just so this thread doesn't die, I would like it if all people in support of my view, or holding a tournament, or whatever would sign this thread with their opinion.

And if you want to argue against me, then go right ahead :) I'm looking forward to the rebuttals.

 

[Dark Azelf]

Add the first post to that aswell, its explains all the Sandstorm, no counters stuff better, so people can understand better. Give the guy credit though.

 

[Ársa]

Ok, well I've done that.

~T_S

 

[luke]

Alright closed. Lemme know how everything goes.