Garchomp Tier Discussion / Debate

[Anti]

I was talking about restricting your pokemon choices as opposed to having counters. You just proved my own point though - MixApe doesn't have many counters and DD LO Gyarados doesn't either. If you want to counter them then they're going to restrict your pokemon choices just like Garchomp, and if not and you want to revenge kill, Garchomp doesn't become very restricting either considering it's very easy to revenge kill.

 

[Outlawed]

Sometimes I just feel the only clauses that make sense is the Uber and the Species. Why can't we just play the game?
I mean seriously, what is up with all these rules. I know some make sense, but it would be easier and more challenging if we just let things be and play the game to it's fullest.

Getting back to reality *sighs* I don't think Garchomp should be banned because the reasons seam ridiculous. Sand Veil, well that applies to Gliscor, and being a wall that's meant to stay out long that can be deadly. I think Garchomp can be outplayed with caution and until I hear a better reason for it being banned I will not support it. I just don't like how we are saying Sand Veil + SD + CB + ,insert list of moves here> it's like saying Gyarados should be banned because after 6 DD's he's god :\

 

[.]

Would it be fun having some stupid Evasion move like Double Team making it impossible to even hit your damn opponent? No, it'd be annoying. As would your opponent sleeping your entire team? Breloom could 6-0 an entire team, which is ridiculous. With clauses, you can work around certain things (have a sleep fodder, etc...)

EDIT: Your Gyarados point is ridiculous, no offense. And it's much more dangerous having Garchomp get a free turn instead of Gliscor. Garchomp can hit everything in the game for neutral with 3 moves. Gliscor cannot, and if he does make room for a varied movepool, he has to lose either Roost or SD. Gliscor needs SD or he's a vastly inferior Garchomp.

 

[sims796]

What the...
...
...

Also I don't really see how Garchomp is the only pokemon in OUs that restricts your pokemon choices. Infernape, Heracross, and Gyarados all are restricting too, and high OUs are in general.

Check out the ladder thread in smogon for a few examples.

 

[Archer]

First off, I wanna speak on this whole Sand Veil thing. I believe it is bought up because it is the sand that broke the camel's back. So much going for him, and now luck? The hell! Poke bias? What is this, the PETA? It just sounds funny, is all.

Thankyou. I am trying to say that Sand Veil is NOT broken, it just adds that extra element of uncertainty to Garchomp. All these problems with it begin to add up. So only when these traits are all combined, does Sand Veil really pose a problem. How can I explain it differently to you guys?

 

[Anti]

Check out the ladder thread in smogon for a few examples.

lol, I get that it does, but you'd be silly to say that it's the only pokemon that does restrict your choices.

Having an element of uncertainty =/= uber, even if there is a bunch of power complementing it. Just to give you an example, LO SD Gliscor is 5% less powerful than standard YacheChomp, so the difference isn't THAT huge (and unlike Garchomp people WILL be careless switching into Gliscor since it's ususally not a threat since SD is rare).

I STILL don't get how power + Sand Veil = uber. I understand where you're coming from but I still don't see how you can actually connect that and how that exactly causes over centralization or anything.

 

[sims796]

lol, I get that it does, but you'd be silly to say that it's the only pokemon that does restrict your choices.

Having an element of uncertainty =/= uber, even if there is a bunch of power complementing it. Just to give you an example, LO SD Gliscor is 5% less powerful than standard YacheChomp, so the difference isn't THAT huge (and unlike Garchomp people WILL be careless switching into Gliscor since it's ususally not a threat since SD is rare).

I STILL don't get how power + Sand Veil = uber. I understand where you're coming from but I still don't see how you can actually connect that and how that exactly causes over centralization or anything.

What did I JUST SAY? What did I mention earlier? As I said, those were my personal reasons as to why I wouldn't be sad that Chomp is leaving. Why I wouldn't care much. Looking at that thread, there is a majority of pokemon that is showing up, (& a few leaving) as a result of Garchomp (& Deo-s, but he wasn't here long enough to make an impact anyway) leaving. Plus, I never said that it is the definitive reason as to why he is uber, just my opinion on why he should be, and why I would like it.

If you still don't see why power + sand veil = uber, it's a massive waste of time going in further, as neither side will budge.

 

[Spazzy]

Party 1: Garchomp should be uber because he can always live through the first hit, and then after swords dancing, hit back a lot harder. He can 2 shot everything in the game.

Party 2: He has plenty of counters and isn't completely overcentralizing. If the HP Ice I gave isn't for him it's for Mence, Torterra and Flygon. I'd still have it. He has no reason to be uber.

Party 3: SAND VEIL LOL!

 

[Romo_Owens]

Wait a minute, you still haven't said why Garchomp should be banned due to Sand Veil and why other pokemon should not be banned for the same reasons - Sand Veil and Snow Cloak. Garchomp is stronger than Gliscor offensively but it still does not justify it being banned and not the others.

I know full well of Garchomp's offensive capabilities but my point still stands.

Well that depends what you mean.

Yes of course Garchomp is much more powerful than Gliscor but they're used is 2 very different manners. One could even argue that Gliscor can use Sand Veil to greater effect than Garchomp. Garchomp follows a strategy of run in set up SD and sweep. Despite being pretty bulky, Garchomps strategy still revolves around not having to suck up an attack because if it gives it's opponent that chance, he/she could use it to throw a will-o-wisp Garchomps way, and if your team lacks a cleric, well Garchomp isn't as close to as effective. However, Sand Veil makes it harder for the will-o-wisp or other attacks to land.

Gliscor however, is a defensive wall. It is designed to take hits. And that percent that Gliscor receives of it's opponents attack missing, could cahnge the course of the game where say the opponents going to finish Gliscor off, then misses, Gliscor roosts and then attacks.

 

[Divine~Deoxys]

It is possible to hate Lapras *arg*?!
And I didn'y say I hate it, but why shouldn't there be a tier of UBL or anything alike?

Hey,i hate Lapras coz Apostle's DDLapras sweeps me evereytime.I love it in-game,cozi ts good to use but easy to beat,but on shoddy,it pwns me.Beachboy had a point,everyone has a hated poke,obviousily a lot have Garchomp.Everyone also has a loved poke(s) that are in a tier they odn't sat them to be in,like me,i love the Lati@s, but they're in ubers.Whatever decision is made,peopel are going to be unhappy,which was why this thread was brought back in the first place.Some will tihnk Deoxys-e is uber,but a lot must think its OU,same with Garchomp,opposite with Wobby.

 

[Archer]

Well that depends what you mean.

Yes of course Garchomp is much more powerful than Gliscor but they're used is 2 very different manners. One could even argue that Gliscor can use Sand Veil to greater effect than Garchomp. Garchomp follows a strategy of run in set up SD and sweep. Despite being pretty bulky, Garchomps strategy still revolves around not having to suck up an attack because if it gives it's opponent that chance, he/she could use it to throw a will-o-wisp Garchomps way, and if your team lacks a cleric, well Garchomp isn't as close to as effective. However, Sand Veil makes it harder for the will-o-wisp or other attacks to land.

Gliscor however, is a defensive wall. It is designed to take hits. And that percent that Gliscor receives of it's opponents attack missing, could cahnge the course of the game where say the opponents going to finish Gliscor off, then misses, Gliscor roosts and then attacks.

See how situational it is with Gliscor? You miss Chomp and he will OHKO pretty much anything that is trying to kill it.

Besides, if you need to "finish off" a Gliscor and Roost brings it out of 2HKO range (Roost then attack) you need to rethink your wall-breaking tactics...

 

[Divine~Deoxys]

yeah.You got it right on the spot archer.

 

[shedinjask]

Sand Veil, well that applies to Gliscor

One more person says this and I am going to snap.

Just to give you an example, LO SD Gliscor is 5% less powerful than standard YacheChomp, so the difference isn't THAT huge (and unlike Garchomp people WILL be careless switching into Gliscor since it's ususally not a threat since SD is rare).

You see, the problem with that comparison is that they both have the 4x Ice weak but Garchomp, and this is the killer, gets to keep Yache Berry and still be that strong. And I know that even if I am careless about switching into Gliscor the consequences won't be as huge as Garchomp's. Both walling and sweeping versions get an Ice attack to the balls, Yache or not. Gliscor's just not that good.

Anti, Garchomp restricts your choices a lot more than almost any other Pokemon. Gengar, Gyarados, even if your team doesn't have any specific way of dealing them, you can still beat them. If you want to have a chance against Garchomp you'd better carry at least two Pokemon that can do some sort of damage to it, one to dent it and one for revenge killing. This is sometimes what I do with other Pokemon, but damn it I at least have the option of changing my team to better deal with them, I just choose not to. On the other hand, almost every team is Garchomp weak.

 

[crystalvelox]

After thinking about it for awhile I can't see any possible way as of now to be able to keep garchomp in the OU tier without affecting the aspects of the metagame that should not be happening (ex. overcentralizing). So my opinion is to place it in the uber tier. The only way I could see keeping Garchomp in the OU tier would be to add extra rules to prevent garchomp from reaching it's maximum potential. Easiest thing to do would be to simply ban Yache Berry on Garchomp. Scarf and Band varients still pose threats, but not nearly as much as a Yache Berry varient in my opinion.

 

[Romo_Owens]

See how situational it is with Gliscor? You miss Chomp and he will OHKO pretty much anything that is trying to kill it.

Besides, if you need to "finish off" a Gliscor and Roost brings it out of 2HKO range (Roost then attack) you need to rethink your wall-breaking tactics...

In my opinion, Sand Veil's effect in general is situational. I'm not even talking about how common Tyranitar and Hippowdon are, Sand Veil effect gives a fair boost to evasion but not that big of one. 20% is significant enough to have ice beam or any other "100" accuracy move to miss roughly 1 out of 10 times. Sure it's the "un-wallable" Garchomp, but if a 10% chance of an attack missing Garchomp messes you up that much, then maybe it's you that should rethink your walling tactics.

 

[dark_seeker]

people have to dedicate atleast one poke in thier team to take out garchomp
wouldnt it be nice if you could build a team without thinking of taking out specific pokemon

 

[Ársa]

If you did that, the team wouldn't be very well constructed. There will always be pokemon that teams need to counter, Garchomp isn't the only one. For instance, many people try to have at least 1 fighting resist to be able to switch into a CBHeracross Close Combat.

~T_S

 

[dark_seeker]

i know but im jut saying if you could just build a team of favorites without thinking of taking out specific pokemon it would be alot more fun

 

[Ársa]

Yes, but you would lose. Removing Garchomp wouldn't change the fact and allow you to do that, or else competitive battling would become non-existent really...A team of favourites may be fun, but without covering threats, you'll rarely win matches.

~T_S

 

[dark_seeker]

ok ok agreed u cannot build a team without having counters for those top 20-30pokes which every1 seems to have
i think thats y people keep complainig about which pokemon should be were