Garchomp Tier Discussion / Debate

[Aquilae]

Note: I made this as I felt that the other topic in S&M was misrepresenting the situation regarding the Smogon suspect test ladder. I also wanted a topic specifically to deal with Garchomp since the other topic seems to be veering off in that direction.

Please note: If you do not have an adequate understanding of the topic at hand, I suggest you read more on it and gain more experience. Posts listing illogical reasons will be treated as spam and action will be taken.

I would prefer if you made an effort to use correct grammar and sentence structure in this discussion.

Contents

[alink id="stats"]Base Stats & Typing[/alink id]
[alink id="movesets"]Common Movesets[/alink id]
[alink id="overcentralization"]Overcentralization[/alink id]

Garchomp Tier Discussion / Debate

Garchomp, the dominant force of the metagame, discussion & debate.

"image removed"
​

Garchomp, a Pokémon that has been dominant in D/P competitive battling since it started. Now, with the introduction of the Smogon Suspect Test Ladder on the Smogon Server, which tests "suspects" in the metagame to see whether they have detrimental effects on the metagame itself, Garchomp is up for testing as a suspect. So, I find it appropriate to create a thread dedicated solely to the discussion of Garchomp's tier placing, in the hopes that it would shed more light on the situation.

[a id]stats[/a id]

Base Stats & Typing

"image removed"

Garchomp

/

→ Base Stats:

108 HP / 130 Attack / 95 Defence / 80 Special Attack / 85 Special Defence / 102 Speed

→ Ability:

Sand Veil (Evasion increases by 20% in a Sandstorm)

From these stats we can see that Garchomp has a great typing boasting only two weaknesses, Dragon and Ice, the former being a 2x weakness and the latter being a 4x weakness.
Garchomp has a resistance to Rock and Fire, and an immunity to Electric These two resistances and Garchomp's subsequent neutralities to other attacks, allow it to switchin into resisted attacks such as Stone Edge and Fire Blast, giving it many opportunities to set up.
Garchomp also is relatively bulky boasting 108 HP / 95 Def / 85 SpD, giving it extra security against opposing attackers which may try to stop a sweep.

To illustrate Garchomp's bulkiness, for an UnSTABed Ice Beam to OHKO it, it would require a special attack stat of at least 269, which for many walls requires a hefty investment in Special Attack.

Garchomp also gains the ability Sand Veil, which provides 20% evasion in Sandstorm. This affects a lot of battles, in which moves miss at a crucial moment. As Garchomp has no other ability, some players believe that it should be banned on this basis alone.

→ What makes Garchomp an offensive force?

Garchomp boasts an impressive 130 Attack. Garchomp also boasts two powerful attacks - Outrage and Earthquake, both of them getting STAB bonuses which greatly increases their power. Outrage and Earthquake are only resisted by three Pokémon - Bronzong, Skarmory and Shedinja - which Garchomp can cover with the addition of Fire Fang or Fire Blast.

These three moves constitute the basic Garchomp moveset which will be examined in greater detail later.

Garchomp also has a unique speed base (i.e. no other pokemon has the same speed stat except Garchomp), which is 2 points higher than the base 100 Speed mark, and higher than the majority of Pokémon. This makes Garchomp a force to contend with, with its speed contributing greatly to its sweeps.


[a id]movesets[/a id]

Common Movesets

This section will show the main sets of Garchomp, and their strengths.

First up,

Garchomp @ Yache Berry
Jolly, 252 Attack / 252 Speed / 4 HP

` Swords Dance
` Outrage
` Earthquake
` Fire Fang

The notorious SDYacheChomp, a Garchomp that uses Swords Dance to boost its attack to massive levels, and proceeding to sweep. Yache Berry weakens Ice Attacks, letting Garchomp survive the majority of them and dispose of its counter or revenge-killer.

Garchomp's other weakness, Dragon is not a factor as Garchomp is faster than all non-Scarfed Dragons in the standard metagame, KOing them with a supereffective Outrage of its own.

Outrage, Earthquake and Fire Fang are unresisted by anything in the game (yes, even Wondertomb). With Swords Dance, this Garchomp one or two hit KOs everything in the standard metagame with either of its moves.

As stated above, this set is dangerous as it can dispose of its counter or revenge-killer easily, having a great chance of nabbing a KO in a battle.

→ Counters:

• Cresselia
• Starmie
• Bronzong
• Skarmory
• Vaporeon
• Milotic

Almost all these supposed counters get done in by Yache Berry, except Bronzong and Skarmory, the former needing Explosion to stop Garchomp, the latter only capable of Whirlwinding Garchomp out of the field.

---
Garchomp @ Choice Band
Jolly, 252 Attack / 252 Speed / 4 HP

` Outrage
` Earthquake
` Fire Fang / Fire Blast
` Stone Edge / Dragon Claw

Choice Band Garchomp sacrifices the protection of Yache Berry and the boost from Swords Dance, and instead opts for more initial power.

This Garchomp can 2HKO everything in the game, bar Steel types and Shedinja, with its Choice Banded Outrage. The other moves serve to add coverage to aid Garchomp in a sweep.

Fire Fang and Earthquake likewise demolish Steel types, the latter also being a STAB move adding to Garchomp's destructive arsenal.

→ Counters:

• Cresselia
• Starmie
• Bronzong
• Skarmory
• Vaporeon
• Milotic

Prediction

All the counters to the Swords Dancer are done in by the Choice Bander. Prediction is probably the only way to insure yourself against a Choice Band Garchomp.

Choice Band Garchomp, like some other notable Choice Banders, does not have an outright counter and needs to be predicted and appropriately outplayed. The difference is, Garchomp has a better typing, speed and a great move in Outrage, boasting immense power while being resisted only by Steel-types.

---
Garchomp @ Choice Scarf
Adamant, 252 Attack / 252 Speed / 4 HP

` Outrage
` Earthquake
` Fire Blast
` Toxic / Dragon Claw / Stone Edge

While Choice Scarf Garchomp does not pose a potent offensive threat, it still is a dangerous variant of Garchomp, which functions mainly as a revenge-killer. Garchomp still has deadly weapons in Outrage and Earthquake, and its high speed coupled with Choice Scarf gives it a surprising amount of speed, capable of downing most of its revenge-killers if they do not pack a priority move to deal with Garchomp.

Toxic wears down bulky walls like Hippowdon and Gliscor if they try to stop Garchomp, the ever increasing Toxic damage cripples them and severely hinders their walling ability.

→ Counters:

• Cresselia
• Gliscor
• Hippowdon
• Skarmory (2HKOed by Fire Blast though)
• Bronzong
• Vaporeon
• Milotic

---

[a id]overcentralization[/a id]

Overcentralization?

It has been argued, that Garchomp with its presence, restricts the amount of Pokémon choices, and decreases the pool of usable Pokémon, a phenomenon known as centralization. Any metagame invariably will have some form of centralization due to people using the best, but too much leads to a metagame centered around the best itself and its counters.

Garchomp usage relative to the total usage of Pokémon has been increasing, which some may call overcentralization. From the Smogon server statistics:

1. Garchomp (83003 usages)
2. Gengar (63925 usages)
3. Gyarados (51694 usages)
4. Lucario (47699 usages)
5. Heatran (42276 usages)
6. Deoxys-e (41622 usages)

Garchomp is used almost twice as much as the #6 pokemon, Deoxys-e, and has a lead of roughly 25% on the second most used pokemon - Gengar.

If numbers are confusing, then take a look at these statistics from Smogon member X-Act:

Probabilities that these Pokémon would be in either or both teams in a Standard Battle:

----------------------
   Pokemon   Chance
----------------------
  Garchomp   58.06%
    Gengar   46.91%
  Gyarados   39.07%
   Lucario   36.40%
   Heatran   32.67%
  Deoxys-S   32.22%
   Blissey   31.11%
 Metagross   30.77%
  Bronzong   29.72%
 Tyranitar   27.22%
 Salamence   26.48%
 Infernape   24.32%
   Starmie   21.68%
    Celebi   21.53%
   Gliscor   20.11%

This thread will be discussing the tier status of Garchomp and more importantly the shifts of the metagame in its absence. I urge all of you to keep on topic and state viable reasons for your projected metagame shifts, and why Garchomp should or should not be banned.

Big thanks to BeachBoy for the formatting =)

 

[Smarties-chan]

Alright, since the other topic was getting out of hand and the original poster had misunderstood the purpose of the test ladder and the topic turned into a Garchomp debate, I've now closed it. Since I'm not online all that much and Dark_Azelf is absent, there was no one there to stop the topic from turning into pure spam so I've chosen not to infract anyone in the previous topic. However, keep in mind that I will be keeping a close eye on this one. All posts that do not contribute to the topic will be infracted without warning.

 

[BeachBoy]

Ah, I made one mistake when I was formatting, didn't scratch out the counters list for Choice Band Garchomp. <<; so, ignore that.

Now to Garchomp, personally, I believe it's uber. It's usage is off the charts, and it's crawling everywhere. Teams have to prepare for this thing like never before, stuffing steels, bulk, and pure revenge kill speed. And most of the time, Garchomp takes at least one to two Pokémon down, it's pretty much a given at this point. It's scene in the OU metagame has severely depleted the diversity it can achieve. You want to use so-so, but due to Garchomp's appearance almost on every team, you must use a different so-so.

Garchomp may not have excellent jaw dropping speed, but it has it's own tier, with that 102. It has a fantastic ability, one that could argue to be the best in the game. (Brightpowder Garchomp days *shudder*) and it's ability to rip everything in half with Choice Band is divine. Also having a 600 BST is nothing to laugh at either, it's still quite bulky and can take a hit. Late game, Garchomp obliterates opposing teams, people build their whole teams to eliminate Garchomp's problematic Pokémon, and this beast simply thrives late game. It's made so many comebacks for me in the past it's insane.

A metagame without Garchomp... walls surely have one less dominate threat to worry about. And in my eyes it makes the game more... er, how should I put this, it boosts the competitive level of the game. People can't slap on Garchomp and shred people to bits anymore and I think that will be a boost. (Kinda hard to explain I guess, hope people understand where I'm coming from) Maybe I'm wrong in this regard. *shrug*

It's been in our metagame for a year, I'm sick of it at this point, and don't think I'm being bias here, I actually love the shark and I've abused it's power. I'll just be glad to see it go, to be honest. Just... we've had this debate for what? Four to five months? It's about time we take a side already. PC banned Garchomp for a month, and the results? Pointless. We really didn't get enough from it. That's not saying how much the metagame changed, it's we didn't issue a ban at the proper time. (Back when we didn't have a server, when we got a server, the Garchomp ban had three days left)

Also, on the "take one domino, another goes." I only think Garchomp and D-S will get the boot. (But Deoxys is another topic) Lucario and others usage will climb, sure, but their power won't necessarily change. And they're not up to the caliber of this beast, anyway. And with Garchomp out, walls should get a boost having to worry less about that shark. And now I'm just starting to ramble, I think it's uber, point blank. Whether my reasoning is wrong or not, my stance won't really change.

Well, that's my take on the matter, and now I'm about to go on a long leave from PC. So if anyone wants to argue my points, I won't be here to counter. (lame pun) XD Have a nice day everyone, and hope that was on topic enough, I'll dive into the shifts later on in the month? (?) XD

 

[richdevildog559]

i think that Garchomp being considered a Uber is complete over-exaggeration. My jolteon with its Sp. Atk around 310~325 has taken out a Garchomp before supprisingly. basically a STAB Ice move can take it out in one hit. cause more than likely no one will bother to max out the HP. so Weavile, Alakazam, Porygon Z can easily take care of Garchomp. thats my opinion.

Garchomp at Max stat

420/394/317/284/295/333 (these r individual stats at their Max not as whole)

Weavile can easily take out a DefChomp with

Ice Punch

Min- Avg- Max
387- 421.64- 455
It's super effective!
Weavile receives STAB (1.5× damage) for this attack* Atk against Def stat.

others attacks wil be given later.

 

[El Gofre]

i think that Garchomp being considered a Uber is complete over-exaggeration. My jolteon with its Sp. Atk around 310~325 has taken out a Garchomp before supprisingly. basically a STAB Ice move can take it out in one hit. cause more than likely no one will bother to max out the HP. so Weavile, Alakazam, Porygon Z can easily take care of Garchomp. thats my opinion.

Garchomp at Max stat

420/394/317/284/295/333 (these r individual stats at their Max not as whole)

Weavile can easily take out a DefChomp with

Ice Punch

Min- Avg- Max
387- 421.64- 455
It's super effective!
Weavile receives STAB (1.5× damage) for this attack* Atk against Def stat.

others attacks wil be given later.

I think you need to read through the initial post again. How on earth are any of the pokes you mentioned going to switch in on garchomp? He 2HKO's all of his supposed "counters" after a SD boost, none of those fragile sweepers can manage.

I have a feeling the "It dies to an Ice attack" arguament is going to appear a lot in this thread...

 

[Sora_8920]

I think you need to read through the initial post again. How on earth are any of the pokes you mentioned going to switch in on garchomp? He 2HKO's all of his supposed "counters" after a SD boost, none of those fragile sweepers can manage.

I have a feeling the "It dies to an Ice attack" arguament is going to appear a lot in this thread...

I get the same feeling. :P

Alakazam can't switch in on Garchomp, btw. His defenses are that of paper. ;)

 

[ABYAY]

I'm sorry, but that was a a very fail post richdevil...Now I'll prove why.

"basically a STAB Ice move can take it out in one hit"

...okay, now switch in your Ice Pokemon on any of its moves and expect to live twice...or if it's Weavile, Garchomp can...you know, switch? Dang, it can even have Yache Berry, ruining Ice Punch while your Garchomp "counter" is dead.

"so Weavile, Alakazam, Porygon Z can easily take care of Garchomp"
Too bad the liklihood of these Pokemon living through an Outrage is the likeliness of an Aggron losing to Magikarp. Pory-Z is slower than Garchomp, thus that is fully void...Garchomp could have a Choice Scarf, so your Ice Punch Weavile argument is null...not to mention again, Yache Berry.

Consider more Competitive Battle-fu.

Oh yeah, a note to future "opinions": If you say that Garchomp easily dies to an ice attack, you will be thrown into a grinder with explosives.

Now...my personal opinion of Garchomp and debate: Garchomp is a complete menace to the OU metagame, 2HK...I don't need to repeat what was said above. Basically, it kills everything, and counters can't switch in on it. Sure, some people might say "Stall out Life Orb with prediction and switches" Um...no. You can't switch 10 times correctly, and it can just Swords Dance on those switches.

"It dies to an ice attack" argument is 100% null. Yache Berry saves it, and the increasing common use of it is so obvious.

"Weavile kills it with Ice Punch" argument is null for 3 reasons: Yache Berry saves from Ice Shard, as may Ice Punch. Also, Weavile can't come in on Garchomp because that's like playing a game of Minesweeper with the mines set to 999 and winning... If you lose, then you've predicted wrong (Note: More common than what you think.) Lastly, the presence of Choice Scarf makes Ice Punch attempts also fail.

"Sturdy users of Ice Beam kill it" 2 reasons this is null: Those switch-ins are potentially 2HKO'd as Yache saves the Chomp. Also, you need 269 sp.atk EVs to guarantee a OHKO on a non-yacheChomp with non-STAB Ice Beam. That usually requires sp.atk investment, in which people can't afford to pack enough defense to take its hits.

Although Garchomp is an extreme threat, it can be outplayed to an extent. The Swords Dance set has to choose either Outrage or Dragon Claw as STAB...Dragon Claw misses crucial 2HKOs on things such as Cresselia (Reflect versions really stall it), whereas Outrage puts it in an easy situation to be revenge killed. Should it not run a fire move, then Skarmory can stand in its way, or even Bronzong, which neither can't do much back except phaze or status, respectively. Bronzong CAN run HP Ice though or use Explosion, fortunately...however, either option cuts into it and makes it less effective.

As for counters...There really isn't much in the game that can take an SD Outrage or Quake. Skarm can, but dies to a fire move. One of our awesome battlers Anti-Pop (if you don't know him, get to know him now.) constructed this, however, to deal with pretty much any version of Chomp in today's Metagame. Another thing I should mention is the use of Sand Veil. It can get in the way and ruin a chance to KO chomp making Ice Beam have the accuracy of Stone Edge. This miss sometimes comes at a crucial moment in where KOing chomp will ensure a victory or protecting from a loss...well, don't a lot of games come to this line of hit and miss? (Stone Edge from T-Tar hit or miss, <100% moves being used at a particular time, etc.)

Cresselia@Choice Scarf
Bold OR Modest
252sp.atk/116spd/140Def OR 236sp.atk/116spd/156HP (Use first nature and set or 2nd nature and set.)

Ice Beam
Psychic
Reflect/Light Screen/Lunar Dance
Thunder Wave/Toxic/Lunar Dance

(PM Anti or myself for details on this. Moveset idea goes to Anti)

However, running this JUST to counter Garchomp can borderline Overcentrilization, although it counters more than just that.

Now...back on topic. Garchomp is the most menacing Pokemon in the metagame. It can be very difficult to outplay, and usually you won't know how to counter it until you know its set. The presence of Yache Berry makes it very difficult to revenge kill without a very powerful move at times, but at this point it does lack a little bit of "POW" to its attacks, throwing some potential OHKOs to 2HKOs and 2HKOs to 3HKOs, although very rare.

I've given my full analysis. My decision on where it goes is as always, "Unconcerned." If it goes to Ubers, I will adapt. If it stays OU, that's okay. I don't use Garchomp anyway.

 

[Azonic]

i think that Garchomp being considered a Uber is complete over-exaggeration. My jolteon with its Sp. Atk around 310~325 has taken out a Garchomp before supprisingly. basically a STAB Ice move can take it out in one hit. cause more than likely no one will bother to max out the HP. so Weavile, Alakazam, Porygon Z can easily take care of Garchomp. thats my opinion.

Garchomp at Max stat

420/394/317/284/295/333 (these r individual stats at their Max not as whole)

Weavile can easily take out a DefChomp with

Ice Punch

Min- Avg- Max
387- 421.64- 455
It's super effective!
Weavile receives STAB (1.5× damage) for this attack* Atk against Def stat.

others attacks wil be given later.

So lets look at the facts. Weavile cannot switch into any of Garchomp's attacks without being OHKO'd (besides Swords Dance, of course). Even after a switch in with Weavile, it still holds Yache Berry, which weakens the attack, allowing Garchomp to survive, and once again OHKO. If not Yache Berry, then Brightpowder, which by luck allows it to evade an Ice Shard / Punch and OHKO. Weavile can't counter YacheChomp, which is the most common variant of Garchomp.

And how the hell does Alakazam counter Garchomp? ._.;

Garchomp will not die to an Ice Attack the first time. Nothing can safely switch into Garchomp, besides a Steel Pokemon when it's locked into an outrage.

I support it being uber. The only counter I can think of for Garchomp is another Garchomp. x_x

It's stats act like Wobbuffet in a way. It almost guarantees the KO of one Pokemon, and possibly even more. :x

I support it being uber because BeachBoy's Garchomp Outrage swept me and attacked me 5 times in a row while it was still confused... on 12 freaking HP. *shot* XD

In other words, uberify that chomp. >:(

Edit: Wow. ABYAY beat me... by 10 minutes. What have I been doing all this time? x_x

 

[MM_Zero]

I think chomp should be uber. 102 base speed means it can outspeed all base 100, he has 130 base attack, also with access to swords dance and outrage, its just a slightly lesser Rayquaza. Don't forget about sand veil, which under a sandstorm makes this thing even more harder to hit.

 

[c_dog]

it won't make much difference for me if garchomp becomes uber. i never used the shark dragon thing and if it becomes uber i guess i never will get to use it in competitive battles.

i think people are over reacting to garchomp. the metagame has always been like this revolving around a few selected OU's so I don't see why people are all upset that everybody's using garchomp. what's the percentage of teams with blissey in advanced gen before cresselia and bronzong were around? probably about the same if not higher. the entire OU meta game IS overcentralization and if people are tired of it, just start playing UU. people say they're tired of see garchomp, but they're not tired of seeing blissey, gyarados, salamence, ttar, gengar who have been around since previous generations?

garchomp often times can take down 1 pokemon easily in a game, but i wouldn't expect anything less from one of the best sweepers in the game. just because garchomp got an easy KO doesn't mean you lost the game. i can't remember how many times choice scarf users get an easy KO on the unsuspecting opponent, yet that one kill doesn't guarantee a win or anything. it's kind of something i thought people would have learned to deal with by now if it happens. just try to get the revenge kill, even the score, and go from there.

 

[El Gofre]

they're not tired of seeing blissey, gyarados, salamence, ttar, gengar

That's because they're all definately counterable, where as there is very little in the way of a true garchomp counter. If you'd have read the initial post properly you would know that :|

 

[luke]

Alright, just to add in a little more enforcement here:

If anyone, and I mean anyone posts "lol it dies to ice attacks noobs" in this thread as an argument why it shouldn't be uber, prepare to face the consequences. Smarties, Dark_Azelf (when he returns from vacation) and I will not tolerate these comments which will be treated as SPAM and infracted properly.

 

[c_dog]

That's because they're all definately counterable, where as there is very little in the way of a true garchomp counter. If you'd have read the initial post properly you would know that :|

i wasn't disputing that point(that there is no true counter). i was just wondering why people say they're tired of seeing it and not other pokemon, though i can see that they're somewhat related to one another, that there not being a true counter for garchomp makes people tired of facing it all the time.

 

[El Gofre]

i wasn't disputing that point(that there is no true counter). i was just wondering why people say they're tired of seeing it and not other pokemon, though i can see that they're somewhat related to one another, that there not being a true counter for garchomp makes people tired of facing it all the time.

Yeah that was want I meant to say- People dont get tired and aggravated with something that they dont see for very long. Chomp can stay around for an age, and more often than not requires a sacrificed poke just so you cna revenge kill it.

 

[Magmortified]

Just to note: CB Weavile can revenge CBChomp and YacheChomp if either are stuck on Outrage (and ScarfChomp, if it's packing Ice Shard for whatever reason). To my knowledge, a Jolly CB Ice Punch will OHKO Chomp through Yache.

Of course, the chance of Weavile switching in safely to Chomp is practically nil and the use of Outrage is the necessity for a revenge-kill... which is the main issue. :P

I'll say more when it's not midnight or so on my side.

 

[.]

I personally think Chomp should be in ubers. It's performence in Ubers doesn't change the fact that it practically breaks the entire OU Metagame. Nearly every team has something to deal with Chomp, whether it be a revenge killer, or even a wall that can take it's hits. Even still, unless they pack Reflect, they will more than likely be 2HKO'd.

Let's look at Garchomp's typing. Ground/Dragon leaves it with only 2 weaknesses. A 4x. and a 2x. Almost no one attacks Chomp for it's Dragon weakness, preferably going for the Ice weakness. Still, Chomp's bulky enough to make use of Yache Berry, which can give it a free turn to do whatever the hell it wants. Even still, don't think a single Ice attack will down Chomp, most need at least 269 SpA EV's to OHKO min HP/min SpD Chomp, nevermind Yache Berry. That means to be an effective Chomp counter, you'll need to heavily invest in SpA.

Now, let's look at Chomp's STABs. It has te 3rd most powerful Earthquake in the entire game. The 3rd most powerful Outrage in the entire game. The only things that have a stronger Earthquake are Rhyperior (which sucks anyway) and Groudon (which is a high-tier Uber) The only things with a stronger Outrage are Dragonite (which, in my opinion, has little that it can offer over Chomp except for DD + Outrage) And Rayquaza (which is a high-tier uber)

Let's also look at Garchomp's ability; Sand Veil. Sand Veil means that even you're counter for Chomp can miss and either be OHKO'd or put into the range where they won't be useful for anything else (in that event, Garchomp can switch out)

This whole debate between Chomp being outclassed by Rayquaza is true, however, Garchomp will almost always beat Rayquaza one on one because it has a higher base speed. In fact, Garchomp is in it's own speed tier. Base 102 allows it to outrun ALL base 100's. That means Salamence cannot outspeed and OHKO it without a DD. Chomp is also bulkier than Salamence, and Swampert.

After I look at it, Chomp has too much going for it to stay in OU. It has an incredible typing, incredible movepool, a unique speed tier, and one hell of an effect on the metagame. I say goodbye Chomp, glad to see you gone.

My old post from the other thread, still has my points in there.

 

[Aurafire]

You can say whatever you want about Garchomp's immense attacking power and "uncounterability"...based on those I think Garchomp would be perfectly fine in the OU tier. But the fact is his ability can be a match-deciding factor, which is just not fair. My friend, a Chomp-user, has gotten himself out of many sticky situations with Sand Veil. And these were definitely battles that he had no right winning. It's basically a hax ability, and it makes him that much harder to take out. Chompy, it's time to go to Ubers.

 

[Anti]

I noticed a few people mentioning how Garchomp's stardom becoming pretty much out of control makes you have to prepare for it even more. Wait...what? I don't see the logic behind that. So if Infernape rises to the top in usage and easily surpasses everything else, will we carry around Swampert and Tentacurel, and Scarfchomp just to be sure? Uh, no. Usage doesn't force you to go to extreme measures to eliminate something.

My main beef with the Garchomp is uber argument is the no counters part of it. "No counters" is awfully misleading considering you actually can counter it. Choice Specs Tangrowth works (and it's a good set outside of countering Garchomp and Gyarados, believe me). But really, since when did not having any counters mean you're uber?

IMO that doesn't even matter that much though. The current state of the metagame is heavy offense, and it's quite tough to disagree with that. A lot of teams don't even try to counter everything, or anything at all for that matter. Revenge killing might not be as reliable as countering something, but it is one of the most popular methods of protecting your team from an opponent's these days, and for a good reason. It's not like not having a counter for something means you're automatically weak to it and you're going to get swept. Yeah a team of Mamoswine, Weavile, and Scarfchomp might not have a Garchomp counter, but there's no way it's going to get swept by Garchomp. Say it is unreliable all you want, but husk and ipl both got to number one with this style of play. How many stall teams that try to counter things like Garchomp do you see at the top of the leaderboard? For its hyped speed tier, Garchomp gets revenge killer by quite a lot. Let's not forget that unlike other sweepers, Garchomp has a 50% chance of being locked into outrage a third turn, sealing its fate. If you send in something fragile to get killed by Outrage, there is a 100% chance Garchomp is staying in to deal with a revenge killer.

Garchomp is an incredibly potent force, but being easily revenge killed prevents it from sweeping teams, especially given the current conditions of today's fast-paced and hard-hitting metagame. Personally I've found CBchomp more effective than YacheChomp. It doesn't have to set up to hit hard.

For the record, I don't actually care if it gets banned since I don't use it a whole lot and considering I've never been as scared of YacheChomp as others have been, it staying in OUs would be fine with me too. So basically I don't care. However, I do believe it should stay in the OU tier quite firmly. I wouldn't be devastated if it was banned though, especially since this would finally stop. lol

I don't see why people are so mad about Sand Veil on Garchomp when other pokemon have the ability too. Yeah, Garchomp can make use of it better than other pokemon, but that doesn't mean other pokemon can't make use of it. also, seeing as I've seen some moans and groans about Brightpowder Garchomp in this thread, I guess that item isn't banned. Spectacular! Now we can put that item on any pokemon we please and Thunderbolt "could" miss that Gyarados and cost you the game.

What I'm saying is that hax is a part of the game. If Heracross's Stone Edge crits your Gliscor, yeah, you're in a lot of trouble (especially wioth SDluke behind it or something). Luck is a part of the game - skill isn't everything and that will never change. You could call it "hax" that your gyarados got minimum damage on something when it otherwise would have OHKOed, but instead Gyarados gets hit back with Thunderbolt. It's not like Sand Veil is the only way hax can destroy you or that Garchomp is the only pokemon that can abuse such luck.

Also, I've seen a lot of "Garchomp is uncounterable" or "Garchomp is used a ton now" or "Garchomp has one of the strongest Earthqaukes in the game and great power and coverage on its STAB moves." Still, I haven't seen a whole lot of WHY that makes Garchomp uber. Interesting stats indeed, but I haven't seen much explanation as to why that makes Garchomp uber.

 

[El Gofre]

Just to note: CB Weavile can revenge CBChomp and YacheChomp if either are stuck on Outrage (and ScarfChomp, if it's packing Ice Shard for whatever reason). To my knowledge, a Jolly CB Ice Punch will OHKO Chomp through Yache.

That's largely the point people are making- There are no counters so you have to revenge kill, which must require a dead pokemon to even attempt.

 

[Aquilae]

Specs Tangrowth gets 2HKOed by CB Outrage and takes a hefty load from SD Outrage, another 2HKO too, and requires Specs to even OHKO Garchomp, which comes with a lot of limitations.

Revenge-killing is not a viable strategy since Garchomp has already done its damage by then, and as pointed out is blocked by Yache Berry. If Infernape was basically used as much as Garchomp, its counters would rise but it would be hindered by its limitations - poor defenses and not so great typing, saving it from being banned. It was the same issue with Blissey / Tyranitar in ADV, they were certainly used around as much as Garchomp but they did not have as much power or the supposed uncounterability that Garchomp is supposed to have.

In every situation we are assuming optimal conditions for the player who uses Garchomp, to attempt to prove that Garchomp can be stopped by other pokemon barring extreme hax. If pokemon A needs Garchomp to run 0 HP/Def IVs and a -Def nature to counter it is not a viable counter.