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Garchomp Tier Discussion / Debate

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Would Chomp really be locked into Swords Dance? I figured Choice Specs would lock you into the first move you choose after you obtain the item- after an SD, this would likely be Outrage or Earthquake.
 
The fact that Garchomp can uses special attacks has nothing to do with him being in OU.

The fact that he almost always needs a sacrifice to be revenge killed it one of the main issues. Can you think of any other OU pokemon that is pretty much guaranteed a KO because of its ridiculous power?

Oh, not to mention the move you're going to revenge kill it with might miss -_-
 
Specs Tangrowth gets 2HKOed by CB Outrage and takes a hefty load from SD Outrage, another 2HKO too, and requires Specs to even OHKO Garchomp, which comes with a lot of limitations.

Revenge-killing is not a viable strategy since Garchomp has already done its damage by then, and as pointed out is blocked by Yache Berry. If Infernape was basically used as much as Garchomp, its counters would rise but it would be hindered by its limitations - poor defenses and not so great typing, saving it from being banned. It was the same issue with Blissey / Tyranitar in ADV, they were certainly used around as much as Garchomp but they did not have as much power or the supposed uncounterability that Garchomp is supposed to have.

In every situation we are assuming optimal conditions for the player who uses Garchomp, to attempt to prove that Garchomp can be stopped by other pokemon barring extreme hax. If pokemon A needs Garchomp to run 0 HP/Def IVs and a -Def nature to counter it is not a viable counter.

I'm not talking about the choice bander. I don't really get why people say "Oh Cresselia can counter most SDchomp but CBchomp owns it with Crunch or Outrage!" Yeah, Suicune can counter physical Salamence, but oh wait it could have Choice Specs Draco Meteor! Also, regardless of how viable you think choice specs Tangrowth is, it is a counter despite taking a lot from SD Outrage. It actually is a good set, might I add.

And wait, revenge killing is not a viable strategy? Tell that to usk and ipl and the several other battlers that have used such a strategy to great success. I myself have. Garchomp isn't the only one that can do damage to those teams either - CB Hera can show up and just demolish anything, and then Deoxys-S comes in and Heracross switches out. Yeah Heracross has already done its damage, but it's not like taking out a slow wall where it can open up tons of sweeps for other sweepers on your team; Sweepers on these teams are not relied upon for much of a defensive workload, and switching anything in on a CBcross that did did rely on would just be playing badly.

I don't really know where you got the 0 IVs thing from. We're being perfectly fair with what does and doesn't counter Garchomp. Also, there are revenge killers that can bypass Yache Berry. If you've ever used scarf dragons in Salamence, Dragonite, and Garchomp, you know what I mean. They're very good too. There's also ScarfTran or a CB Ice Punch from Weavile. Garchomp rarely gets in with all of its health.

As for your more recent post...

Yes usage is related to power, of course it is. However, usage does not define power. Power doesn't even define usage in all cases.

Also Garchomp can switch into Tyranitar and Lucario and Electivire without a speed boost and win every time, but it's not like Blissey countering Starmie where Blissey is always going to come out on top with almost all of its health. Tyranitar's CB Crunch effectively shuts down SDchomp's ability to sweep. LO Close Combat, if Lucario predicts the switch-in, will also take off a good portion of Garchomps health (more than half). If you want Evire to shave off 50% of your health and take away your Yache Berry too, that's fine by me. Heatran? Cool, let's eat a Dragon Pulse or HP Ice. Even if Garchomp predicts a Fire Blast or earth Power, he won't exactly take the hit like nothing. Blissey? Toxic and Ice Beam are both fairly common, though I actually agree that Thunder Wave is the better choice for Blissey. Infernape? It almost always carries Hidden Power Ice, making Garchomp a really terrible switch-in.

You also said this which caught my attention:

"I think the +Ubers side is arguing that Garchomp can sweep OU with its most common set, which is obviously a quality that needs to be noted."

Sweep OUs? Garchomp might be fast, but it isn't fast enough to sweep OUs. What revenge kills it:

Mamoswine
Weavile
Scarf Salamence
Scarf Garchomp
Scarf Dragonite
Deoxys-S
Scarf Gengar
Scarf Infernape
Scarf Alakazam
CB Donphan (survives Outrage and takes 90% from Garchomp with CB Ice shard, 2HKOing with or without Yache Berry).
Scarf Heatran
Scarf Lucario
Scarf Gyarados
Metagross (assuming it's Outraging)

A lot of those threats are ridiculously common. Scarf Gar and Deoxys-S are seen every day on Shoddy. The others aren't as common but it's not like they aren't used (outside of CB Donphan). You have a lot of options to revenge kill Garchomp and end its sweep. A lot of those pokemon (Gengar, for example) can revenge kill it without a Choice Scarf and opt for a Choice specs or Life Orb set. Alakazam does similar (and Specs Psychic does ~70% to Garchomp while HP Ice, specs or not, OHKOs). Its speed just isn't enough to carry out a sweep in today's fast and powerful metagame.

Garchomp also has to switch in on the threats of today. It's bulky one cannot deny, but switching in on things it supposedly counters can damage it a lot as I mentioned earlier.

"If usage does not determine Uber status, there isn't much reliable evidence to prove that a pokemon should be Uber in the first place."

Usage =/= to viability/power. OU/Ubers is decided by power, not usage. So then yeah, we don't have any stats proving either side is "right." There were no statistics that PROVED Wobbuffet was uber, but it was banned because it was a detriment to just about every in the metagame. I haven't seen Garchomp "destroy the metagame" like I've heard people claim. We have a whole selection of revenge killers at our disposal to beat it and a select few pokemon who counter it.

EDIT: Yeah AC, it actually would lock you in. Just so ya know ;)
 
Um... does it really matter? Wow, Garchomp learns Special Moves! So what? ._.;

What he's saying is that...

---
TRAINER switched into Alakazam
Garchomp used Swords Dance!
Garchomp's Attack sharply rose.
---
Alakazam used Trick!
Garchomp obtained Choice Specs!
Alakazam obtained Yache Berry!
Garchomp used Swords Dance!
Garchomp's Attack was sharply raised.
---

And it would be locked into a Swords Dance.

Yeah? Well problems will come. Yache Berry might already have been used on an Ice Move, Garchomp might be holding Choice Band, or Garchomp might be holding Choice Scarf, or the user can just play smart and switch out, forcing the Alakazam to Trick the wrong Pokemon, and the TrickSpecs ability is done for. Garchomp switches back in and eats Alakazam. Really, any good player knows to switch out when you see Alakazam, since most Alakazam movesets are the TrickSpecs. Alakazam isn't common anymore. >:<

Sorry, I didn't quite think that one through. :nervous:
I would expect that though, and just switch out.
Its kinda obvious if you saw a Alakazam against a pokemon that it doesn't have a good chance of taking it down, your gonna get a tricked slapped in your face.

I said use it on it's Swords Dance.
And yes, I know what's ChainChomp, but it's quite a stupid set IMO. 80 Over 130?


Its not like I ever said that I would base a set on his special attack, I said that if It came down to it he could use special attack over physical.​

The fact that Garchomp can uses special attacks has nothing to do with him being in OU.

Ok, I'm pretty sure I never said anything about his special attack having to do with anything being in OU, did I?​

Would Chomp really be locked into Swords Dance? I figured Choice Specs would lock you into the first move you choose after you obtain the item- after an SD, this would likely be Outrage or Earthquake.

Doesn't sound likely, what you said makes more sense.
I'd love to test this out with you.​
 
I fully support the moving of Garchomp to ubers. Every team I have ever built has gotten swept by one at some point. I even built one where I made sure every Pokemon on my team could damage chomp, going so far as to give many of my Pokemon HP [Ice] or either a dragon or Ice move. Then I ran into a team that led with T-tar and had a Chomp on it. I hit it once, but it had a Yache Berry. I was swept.

To sum up : Move Chomp to ubers so I can stop using all the "popular" pokemon, and use the ones I like. I just had one attempt at doing so swept by Chomp... twice in a row, against different people, and got 4-0'd in a third battle against one.

And yes, Chomp would be locked into a swords dance, but what if it didn't use SD?
 
I fully support the moving of Garchomp to ubers. Every team I have ever built has gotten swept by one at some point. I even built one where I made sure every Pokemon on my team could damage chomp, going so far as to give many of my Pokemon HP [Ice] or either a dragon or Ice move. Then I ran into a team that led with T-tar and had a Chomp on it. I hit it once, but it had a Yache Berry. I was swept.

To sum up : Move Chomp to ubers so I can stop using all the "popular" pokemon, and use the ones I like. I just had one attempt at doing so swept by Chomp... twice in a row, against different people, and got 4-0'd in a third battle against one.

And yes, Chomp would be locked into a swords dance, but what if it didn't use SD?

Amen, totally agree.
Most of my favorite pokemon, I cannot use because of those powerful sweepers. I'd love to be able to use them.

If he didn't use SD, that Zam is dead.
 
I fully support the moving of Garchomp to ubers. Every team I have ever built has gotten swept by one at some point. I even built one where I made sure every Pokemon on my team could damage chomp, going so far as to give many of my Pokemon HP [Ice] or either a dragon or Ice move. Then I ran into a team that led with T-tar and had a Chomp on it. I hit it once, but it had a Yache Berry. I was swept.

To sum up : Move Chomp to ubers so I can stop using all the "popular" pokemon, and use the ones I like. I just had one attempt at doing so swept by Chomp... twice in a row, against different people, and got 4-0'd in a third battle against one.

And yes, Chomp would be locked into a swords dance, but what if it didn't use SD?

You must have seriously misplayed that. If every single pokemon on your team can do something to Garchomp (or anything else for that matter), you should not be getting swept by it, period. Countering Garchomp is hard, but revenge killing it couldn't be simpler, especially with its Yache Berry gone.
 
You must have seriously misplayed that. If every single pokemon on your team can do something to Garchomp (or anything else for that matter), you should not be getting swept by it, period. Countering Garchomp is hard, but revenge killing it couldn't be simpler, especially with its Yache Berry gone.

Sadly, I forgot what Revenge Killing was.
If you know me, you know my horrible memory.

Spoiler:
 
You must have seriously misplayed that. If every single pokemon on your team can do something to Garchomp (or anything else for that matter), you should not be getting swept by it, period. Countering Garchomp is hard, but revenge killing it couldn't be simpler, especially with its Yache Berry gone.

I kept missing because of SAND VEIL. I had very bad luck. I missed several times in a row. Even my Porygon2 couldn't deal with it.
 
I'm in full support for Garchomp being ubers, but I must say, some people make it seem as if it cannot be revenge killed. It's like any other Pokemon; revenge killing it is (somewhat) easy. However, the problem with Chomp is that a lot of the things that revenge kill it are either missing due to Sand Veil and getting OHKO'd or 2HKO'd, or dead before Chomp gets out into late game (which is when it should be out, no 3rd turn Garchomps please)
 
I'm in full support for Garchomp being ubers, but I must say, some people make it seem as if it cannot be revenge killed. It's like any other Pokemon; revenge killing it is (somewhat) easy. However, the problem with Chomp is that a lot of the things that revenge kill it are either missing due to Sand Veil and getting OHKO'd or 2HKO'd, or dead before Chomp gets out into late game (which is when it should be out, no 3rd turn Garchomps please)

Yes, chomps that lead are failing horribly, unless they are banded, at which point you lose your lead most of the time.
 
Just a heads up on the TrickSpecs argument: It's null and void because when you trick the Specs on, if Garchomp isn't using Swords Dance, then the attack goes through. I'll explain from the above scene.

TRAINER switched into Alakazam
Garchomp used Swords Dance!
Garchomp's Attack sharply rose.
---
Alakazam used Trick!
Garchomp obtained Choice Specs!
Alakazam obtained Yache Berry!
Garchomp used Swords Dance! (This move is now choiced and must be picked.)
Garchomp's Attack was sharply raised.

So, as you can see, if you Trick, the move they pick next is choiced. In that situation, Garchomp is stuck on Swords Dance and must switch out. If Earthquake was picked, then it'd be locked into Earthquake.
 
I fully support the moving of Garchomp to ubers. Every team I have ever built has gotten swept by one at some point. I even built one where I made sure every Pokemon on my team could damage chomp, going so far as to give many of my Pokemon HP [Ice] or either a dragon or Ice move. Then I ran into a team that led with T-tar and had a Chomp on it. I hit it once, but it had a Yache Berry. I was swept.

To sum up : Move Chomp to ubers so I can stop using all the "popular" pokemon, and use the ones I like. I just had one attempt at doing so swept by Chomp... twice in a row, against different people, and got 4-0'd in a third battle against one.

And yes, Chomp would be locked into a swords dance, but what if it didn't use SD?

it can't be that bad if you had ice on every pokemon. it must have been a rather unbalanced team.. nobody faster than chomp and nobody who can take one or two hits from chomp?

it's not that hard to use the pokemon you like unless they're the likes of wigglytuff/venamoth/pigeot(you get the point)... i do okay with a brock team and i used to beat some of the best around here with ash teams. surely it's do-able.
 
Yeah, that is why I disagree with revenge killing. Probably me, and most likely Vance's fault, but I am tired of seeing it pop up by surprise in late gaem. I know, I know, I should be expecting it, but still, I think I'm winning, then D_A pops that bastard up.

Off topic, Lucario haxs D_A by OHKO'ing a full HP Weezing with XSpeed, even when ALL my walls died & he had nothing but sweepers. Take that, Garchimp.
 
Just a heads up on the TrickSpecs argument: It's null and void because when you trick the Specs on, if Garchomp isn't using Swords Dance, then the attack goes through. I'll explain from the above scene.

TRAINER switched into Alakazam
Garchomp used Swords Dance!
Garchomp's Attack sharply rose.
---
Alakazam used Trick!
Garchomp obtained Choice Specs!
Alakazam obtained Yache Berry!
Garchomp used Swords Dance! (This move is now choiced and must be picked.)
Garchomp's Attack was sharply raised.

So, as you can see, if you Trick, the move they pick next is choiced. In that situation, Garchomp is stuck on Swords Dance and must switch out. If Earthquake was picked, then it'd be locked into Earthquake.

correct me if i'm wrong but i'm pretty sure if garchomp chose earthquake it would fail. something like

TRAINER switched into Alakazam
Garchomp used Swords Dance!
Garchomp's Attack sharply rose.
---
Alakazam used Trick!
Garchomp obtained Choice Specs!
Alakazam obtained Yache Berry!
Garchomp can't use earthquake due to choice specs!
Alakazam uses ice beam!
Garchomp fainted

If that's not the case then people might as well use "encore" instead.

TRAINER switched into Alakazam
Garchomp used Swords Dance!
Garchomp's Attack sharply rose.
--------------
Alakazam used Encore!
Garchomp used Swords Dance! (This move is automatically picked until encore ends)
Garchomp's Attack was sharply raised.

Alakazam can then calm mind or ice beam or something. doesn't ruin the garchomp like the specs would but if specs don't work then this is more viable.

edit: oops. as vance pointed out alakazam does not learn ice beam but hp ice.
 
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Alakazam cannot learn Ice Beam first of all. Besides that little nitpick, yes, Alakazam would cripple Chomp. But no sane Chomp user would keep Chomp in Zam, since it practically OHKO's with Psychic alone, especially with Specs.
 
No, you can still use special moves with a Choice Band, & vice versa.

I just did a test. Ingame, Raichu held a Choice Band, & I made it use Hidden Power. I was able too. However, I used it on a Psyduck, & he Disabled me. Irony, I was out of moves :laugh:
 
All choice items do is buff up a stat some. It doesn't mean you can't use a certain move.

Don't worry, my analysis is correct because I actually tested it earlier with Anti, who thought I was wrong...Who's wrong now Anti!? *spear'd by Anti's epicness*
 
correct me if i'm wrong

You're wrong. Whatever move they use after having Specs tricked on is the move they'll be locked into.

And the point isn't that it can't be revenge killed, it's that is has to be revenge killed. You almost always (and I mean seriously always) have to sacrifice something to beat Garchomp.
 
well, if you look at it this way. garchomp is considered almost uber status, so losing 1 poke while getting a revenge kill on it isn't such a bad trade off. i mean it's basically 1 for 1, but you're getting rid of a borderline "uber" while only losing an OU :P

a lot of sweepers can be dangerous at the end of games. i've swept teams with light ball pikachu several times late game. sandveil is hax but i've learned to deal with it. if i lose due to sandveil(which i don't think i have since I rarely get garchomp in sandstorm) then so be it.
 
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