Health at Every Size(HAES)

[Neil Peart]

I never said anyone was delusional - I was quoting the first post, which said that HAES is "delusion and disrespect." I was saying if you think that HAES is delusion then you have some questionable ethics. You misread a bit.

Criticizing those who are fat and trying to shame them into losing weight does not work - studies have shown this for years. It makes people feel superior when they do so, but in fact harms the cause they claim to be so passionate for. You know what helps people lose weight? Loving their body. When I was a teenager, I was overweight. I lost weight when I began to love my body, and thus felt more of an urge to take care of it, so I took initiative in monitoring what I ate.

Fat people deserve the same respect that anyone who engages in debatably risky behavior does. They deserve as much respect as people that ride motorcycles. They deserve as much respect as flight attendants that expose themselves to radiation. They deserve as much respect as the person who doesn't know how to swim. The point I'm making here is that everyone engages in some kind of behavior that has a higher risk to kill them than if they did not. We've just decided that this particular behavior is "worse" than the rest and thus the people that engage in it aren't worthy of respect.

Then you should have mentioned HAES in your post rather than just saying "If "everyone deserves respect" is a "delusion" in your eyes then you have some questionable ethics as a human being." Nice backpedal there.

So other people engaging in risky behavior gives this movement more merit? Obesity is responsible for well over $100 million in annual health costs, leads to an entire slew of health problems and is one of the leading causes of PREVENTABLE DEATH. We need to put action to prevent it before "accept the fact that you're fat and embrace it."

See, it's socially acceptable to disparage a smoker and say "wtf man, you're killing yourself!" but if you were to tell a morbidly obese person to stop eating a ton of junk, you'd be called a bully. So get outta here with that risk horse♥♥♥♥. This is just another fallacy in a long line of fallacies I've seen you commit.

Also, it is so, so patronizing to keep getting on overweight people for being overweight because of "omg the health problems!!!!!". Worry about yourself.

Then don't get on smokers for what they do. I mean, we're all comparing risks here, so who am I to break the chain of ridiculousness?

 

[Magic Christmas Lights]

Then don't get on smokers for what they do. I mean, we're all comparing risks here, so who am I to break the chain of ridiculousness?

I actually make it a point not to trouble smokers about smoking, with the exception of if they're exposing people who have no choice, such as children to the smoke. Smoking's a bit different in that second hand smoke can be quite deleterious if it is inhaled consistently.

 

[Oryx]

I don't know why you miss my point completely, twist my words so you can sound like the good person, while I evil.

How do I judge those who give birth? I gave an awful over the top analogy to show you that your analogy was bad and made no sense.

It is. single overweight person I have seen/known has problems like that. They get tired faster than thin people(or what is considered the norm in a specific country) or are out of breath after climbing stairs. I am not talking about some who is +20 kg. I'm talking about people that are obese.

I know multiple overweight people that could kick my butt in walking and running. Even though I'm not significantly overweight, they're in far better shape than I am. My mom has been obese most of my childhood and I've never been able to keep up with her, because she's strong and although she's not great at dieting, she's good at exercising, which doesn't lose you as much weight (you cut more calories dieting than you burn exercising) but puts you in better shape. Once again, show me a study that supports your claim, because your personal experience is not proof that all fat people everywhere tire easier than all thin people everywhere.

I don't think you understand my argument. It's reductio ad absurdum - you are saying that you don't respect fat people that take pride in being fat because it's unhealthy and bad for your body. I am following this argument to a conclusion that logically follows form it, as proof that it doesn't stand as a logical argument. In this case, giving birth/being pregnant. It is the same situation; a person weighs their choices and decides they would rather do something that risks their health for some benefit, and is proud of choosing the choice that risked their health. Childbirth is massively expensive, so it will clearly drain resources in insurance as opposed to adoption.

What I'm looking for here, to be clear, is a logical reason why you see the two of these as different. I never doubted that you did not judge women for being proud of being pregnant or giving birth. What I am doubting is that your judgment of fat people is based in something other than bias against being fat in particular, and am bringing up similar situations that also carry a great risk to body that I assume you don't judge to spur you to show me the difference and prove me wrong. I hope that clears up what I'm trying to say here.

 

[Sir Codin]

What about if we have universal health care? It's pretty much a given that being fat is unhealthy, as it tends to be correlated to heart problems and diabetes. When your health starts drawing off MY money, then I do have a say in it, and I WILL say "you're too fat."

What is everyone's issue with fat shaming? Fat shaming can be a source of good. Kotaku once showcased a cosplayer who was fat shamed and went from 209-lbs to 99-lbs as a response and she's now happier because of it:
https://kotaku.com/young-cosplayer-lost-over-100-pounds-after-fat-shaming-1552704309

If you believe everyone should be allowed to have their bodies however they want, then fine, that's cool and I agree with that. But then you also have to be against universal health care.

 

[KingRin]

I know multiple overweight people that could kick my butt in walking and running. Even though I'm not significantly overweight, they're in far better shape than I am. My mom has been obese most of my childhood and I've never been able to keep up with her, because she's strong and although she's not great at dieting, she's good at exercising, which doesn't lose you as much weight (you cut more calories dieting than you burn exercising) but puts you in better shape. Once again, show me a study that supports your claim, because your personal experience is not proof that all fat people everywhere tire easier than all thin people everywhere.

I don't think you understand my argument. It's reductio ad absurdum - you are saying that you don't respect fat people that take pride in being fat because it's unhealthy and bad for your body. I am following this argument to a conclusion that logically follows form it, as proof that it doesn't stand as a logical argument. In this case, giving birth/being pregnant. It is the same situation; a person weighs their choices and decides they would rather do something that risks their health for some benefit, and is proud of choosing the choice that risked their health. Childbirth is massively expensive, so it will clearly drain resources in insurance as opposed to adoption.

What I'm looking for here, to be clear, is a logical reason why you see the two of these as different. I never doubted that you did not judge women for being proud of being pregnant or giving birth. What I am doubting is that your judgment of fat people is based in something other than bias against being fat in particular, and am bringing up similar situations that also carry a great risk to body that I assume you don't judge to spur you to show me the difference and prove me wrong. I hope that clears up what I'm trying to say here.

Well if we put 2 fat people in a race. One has done nothing but sit infront of the PC or console and eat, while the other has been doing cardio for 30-40 minutes everyday for 2 weeks of course the second fat person will win it.
If you don't have much physical activity, while the overweight person has of course he/she will beat you(even if you are thin). But them having some physical activity shows that they are at least trying to lose weight.
Well if your mom eats lets say 3000 calories, but with exercising only loses 2000 calories of course it won't seem like exercising doesn't help lose a lot of weight. Dieting isn't even the right word, a person shouldn't starve themself.
I can't show you a study, but just because 3000 fat people from 10 000 fat people don't get tired easily doesn't mean it's not a problem. We got to look at the big picture here.

What kind of benefit do you get from becoming overweight? A person doesn't just say "I will eat a lot and become fat because I get _____". People just get used to a certain way of eating/not doing anything and at first don't even notice it. It's the same with any addiction really. A person doesn't start doing drugs because they think they will throw away their health for some benefit, it just feels good.

I can't say anything about childbirth, because here it's pretty cheap.

 

[Oryx]

Well if we put 2 fat people in a race. One has done nothing but sit infront of the PC or console and eat, while the other has been doing cardio for 30-40 minutes everyday for 2 weeks of course the second fat person will win it.
If you don't have much physical activity, while the overweight person has of course he/she will beat you(even if you are thin). But them having some physical activity shows that they are at least trying to lose weight.
Well if your mom eats lets say 3000 calories, but with exercising only loses 2000 calories of course it won't seem like exercising doesn't help lose a lot of weight. Dieting isn't even the right word, a person shouldn't starve themself.
I can't show you a study, but just because 3000 fat people from 10 000 fat people don't get tired easily doesn't mean it's not a problem. We got to look at the big picture here.

What kind of benefit do you get from becoming overweight? A person doesn't just say "I will eat a lot and become fat because I get _____". People just get used to a certain way of eating/not doing anything and at first don't even notice it. It's the same with any addiction really. A person doesn't start doing drugs because they think they will throw away their health for some benefit, it just feels good.

I can't say anything about childbirth, because here it's pretty cheap.

See, you're adding conditions - assuming the fat person doesn't do any cardio, assuming the thin person does. This is not true of many, many people and is one of the biggest reasons why your assumptions are false. Your assumption that someone doing cardio is trying to lose weight is also wrong. The final thing you got wrong is that exercising doesn't burn anywhere close to 2000 calories unless you spend hours doing intense exercise. Running 5 miles a day every day would still burn under 1000 calories. I'm not convinced you know much about calories.

Some people eat as a form of therapy. Some people eat as a cultural connection to their families. At a basic level, the benefit people get is good food and enjoyment.

 

[KingRin]

See, you're adding conditions - assuming the fat person doesn't do any cardio, assuming the thin person does. This is not true of many, many people and is one of the biggest reasons why your assumptions are false. Your assumption that someone doing cardio is trying to lose weight is also wrong. The final thing you got wrong is that exercising doesn't burn anywhere close to 2000 calories unless you spend hours doing intense exercise. Running 5 miles a day every day would still burn under 1000 calories. I'm not convinced you know much about calories.

Some people eat as a form of therapy. Some people eat as a cultural connection to their families. At a basic level, the benefit people get is good food and enjoyment.

So if we put a thin and fat person with the same eating habits and no physical activity you think that the overweight person will win in a race?
It's true for many,many people? I'm interested if there was an actual study about this, if you provide a study about this specific thing of course I will agree with you.
Then why would a person do cardio?
Abou the calories I just used random numbers.
Of course food is fun and enjoyable, but over eating and overdoing it isn't.
Again you completely missed my points and just look for what is wrong.

 

[caller_100]

I think the message we hear a lot, from doctors and from society in general, is "lose weight, then you'll be healthy." I've read a little about this movement, and I really think the main goal is to switch that around - to "be healthy, then you'll (probably) lose weight." The goal is to focus on health rather than on weight, because being healthy is a good goal for EVERYONE; losing weight is a great goal for a lot of people, but it's not universal. Sure, we can probably say that, for a lot of people in the "overweight" category, losing weight would be a good thing. But as a lot of people have pointed out, genetics play a role in weight, too, and some people, no matter what they eat and how they exercise, are just naturally going to fall into the "overweight" or "underweight" categories. And for someone who just naturally weighs a little more (I'm not talking about obesity here - I think that's a different issue than simply being "fat"), losing weight wouldn't be healthy. It would actually be very unhealthy. And so by focusing on health rather than weight, which is just one of many aspects of health, I think we help more people to be really, truly healthy. It also does help to eliminate fat shaming, which, as Oryx pointed out, really doesn't benefit anybody. This isn't to say that people who are overweight and unhealthy shouldn't try to lose some weight and become healthier, just that it's just as unproductive to make fun of them and expect things to change as it would be to make fun of a drug addict and expect them to suddenly stop being addicted. If someone is in that overweight AND unhealthy category, then adopting more healthy choices is automatically going to lead to weight loss, along with a whole lot of other health benefits. So why focus on just the weight loss when you can focus on health as a whole?

Long story short: People shouldn't focus on losing weight as the main goal with health as a side-effect. People should focus on being healthy, and if they happen to also lose weight, cool.

 

[Oryx]

So if we put a thin and fat person with the same eating habits and no physical activity you think that the overweight person will win in a race?
It's true for many,many people? I'm interested if there was an actual study about this, if you provide a study about this specific thing of course I will agree with you.
Then why would a person do cardio?
Abou the calories I just used random numbers.
Of course food is fun and enjoyable, but over eating and overdoing it isn't.
Again you completely missed my points and just look for what is wrong.

I refuse to respond to you moving the goalposts - remember why this discussion began. It began because you claimed obesity is more than "risky" behavior, because it was guaranteed to cause you to tire easily. Now you're moving the goalposts to what happens as a general rule. Those are two different things and that's a sneaky way of trying to twist the debate when you've been proven wrong on one point - pretend that it was never your point and move the goalposts to another point.

Cute how you're trying to take a word like "many" and ask for a study about it though, while still refusing to provide studies to back up your argument that every obese person gets heart disease.

As far as why would a person do cardio? Not everything is about weight loss. People who are obsessed with tearing down fat people and letting them know how unhealthy they're being are the ones obsessed with it; they're the ones that think everything must be related to weight loss. Running builds your leg muscles. Muscles are heavier than fat. You can gain weight and be healthier. Health is more important than weight, which is the entire point of HAES. Be healthy. Exercise and get nutrients. And don't assume that because that person is fatter than you that they can't run you into the ground, because that's wrong.

 

[KingRin]

I refuse to respond to you moving the goalposts - remember why this discussion began. It began because you claimed obesity is more than "risky" behavior, because it was guaranteed to cause you to tire easily. Now you're moving the goalposts to what happens as a general rule. Those are two different things and that's a sneaky way of trying to twist the debate when you've been proven wrong on one point - pretend that it was never your point and move the goalposts to another point.

Cute how you're trying to take a word like "many" and ask for a study about it though, while still refusing to provide studies to back up your argument that every obese person gets heart disease.

As far as why would a person do cardio? Not everything is about weight loss. People who are obsessed with tearing down fat people and letting them know how unhealthy they're being are the ones obsessed with it; they're the ones that think everything must be related to weight loss. Running builds your leg muscles. Muscles are heavier than fat. You can gain weight and be healthier. Health is more important than weight, which is the entire point of HAES. Be healthy. Exercise and get nutrients. And don't assume that because that person is fatter than you that they can't run you into the ground, because that's wrong.

I told you that I can't find such a study. But you also didn't provide one.
As for moving the goalposts, a couple of times you just ignored what I said. I said that I want answers to my points and you still didn't get what I meant.

As a person who has been overweight their whole life and still is(120-130kg at the age of 16) I know that most of the fat people I meet/see at the gym or when I'm running do it for weight loss. We do cardio to lose the weight. Just because some little percentage of overweight people go for their leg muscles doesn't mean that all do. Just look at the big picture. Even if they go only for their leg muscles at their back of their head I am sure that they are happy about losing the weight.
Now don't tell me something like "Well many people do cardio just to make their leg muscles stronger, not only overweight people" . Well the main point of the post is for fat people.

 

[Oryx]

I told you that I can't find such a study. But you also didn't provide one.
As for moving the goalposts, a couple of times you just ignored what I said. I said that I want answers to my points and you still didn't get what I meant.

As a person who has been overweight their whole life and still is(120-130kg at the age of 16) I know that most of the fat people I meet/see at the gym or when I'm running do it for weight loss. We do cardio to lose the weight. Just because some little percentage of overweight people go for their leg muscles doesn't mean that all do. Just look at the big picture. Even if they go only for their leg muscles at their back of their head I am sure that they are happy about losing the weight.
Now don't tell me something like "Well many people do cardio just to make their leg muscles stronger, not only overweight people" . Well the main point of the post is for fat people.

The point is that we shouldn't be encouraging weight loss as an end in itself. This is what causes people to fall ill and then get praised for losing weight, although they're incredibly unhealthy. This is what causes eating disorders, because people think it's better to be thin and unhealthy than weigh more and be relatively healthy. We should praise people for health, and we should not assume health by looking at someone. This is what I'm supporting and this is what you're fighting. You are fighting for the right to be judgmental of people. This is why I said that following this stance is morally questionable at the least. Why do you think it's so important that you have the right to look at fat people and judge them without knowing who they are or what they feel or what their health is like? Why do you care so much?

 

[Kanzler]

See, you're adding conditions - assuming the fat person doesn't do any cardio, assuming the thin person does. This is not true of many, many people and is one of the biggest reasons why your assumptions are false. Your assumption that someone doing cardio is trying to lose weight is also wrong. The final thing you got wrong is that exercising doesn't burn anywhere close to 2000 calories unless you spend hours doing intense exercise. Running 5 miles a day every day would still burn under 1000 calories. I'm not convinced you know much about calories.

wat

plug in 5 miles a day every day in any old calorie burned calculator will tell you that you burn around 500 calories running an hour at 5 miles per hour. if you do that every day of the week you'll lose around a pound a week without any kind of caloric deficit. that's absolutely amazing.

also rinyoga didn't add any conditions. he posited what happened if you put two fat people in a race, not one fat and one thin person.

don't underestimate the power of exercise. it's not just about the calories you burn in the act, it's also the metabolic boost that occurs after the exercise, as well as the muscle growth and cardiovascular fitness.

also, when people say lose weight, what they really mean is lose fat. you don't generally tell a 250 lbs mma fighter to lose weight (unless he's trying to get into a lower weight class). however a 250 lbs counch potato is a different story. come on people let's not weasel around words here. we know what they really mean without being pedantic about losing weight vs losing fat.

in any case having excess fat is certainly not a good thing as it puts you at risk for cardiovascular diseases and can exacerbate other conditions such as diabetes. anyways, all this picking about details is really missing the point. it is generally understood that excess fat is detrimental for certain health risks. let's not ignore that. you have to take the bad (health risks) with the good (culture and ♥♥♥♥).

please like for starcraft reference.

 

[Lotus the Cat]

I am all for the idea that people should focus of being healthy as opposed to meeting any particular weight goal. I am, however, fiercely against the idea of normalising obesity in any way. I don't think this means that we should shame obese people, but we shouldn't accept that it is okay, just as we don't accept that anorexia or bulimia is okay.

Apart from the minority of overweight and obese individuals who suffer from medical issues that cause their weight, people who are obese either exhibit a lack of self control in their eating habits or are lazy (why do you think fad diets are so profitable?), end of story. It's really not that hard for regular people to maintain a healthy weight. Most of the energy that your body burns every day is from respiration and other processes that keep you alive. If you're not overeating you only need relatively minimal exercise to lose (if you're overweight) or maintain your weight at a healthy level.

I am thin and have never been overweight. I don't manage this because I have a high metabolism, I manage it by a few simple things:
1. I only eat when I'm hungry
2. I incorporate exercise into my regular routine (I partake in a brisk 30 min walk every work day just going to and from my train station. On weekends just doing cleaning around the house is enough exercise.)
3. I balance my meals (e.g. I tend to eat a chocolate bar everyday, but I also typically have a salad for lunch and fruit for snacks).

These are very easy things to do. It boggles my mind that obesity is such an epidemic. Throwing excuses around like being busy or that you're overweight because of eating at cultural family get-togethers are just cheap cop outs. If not complacency, it's definitely an eating disorder and should be treated as such.

Another thing I have noticed, which is reflected in some of the items included at the start of this thread (thin person with breast cancer, for example), is that overweight people are now starting to shame thin people (because that's productive). I am so sick of seeing/hearing overweight and obese women say "Men want curves, only dogs want bones" ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ or waving around Marilyn Monroe, as though she were ever obese, as an advocate for obesity being sexy.

 

[Oryx]

I am all for the idea that people should focus of being healthy as opposed to meeting any particular weight goal. I am, however, fiercely against the idea of normalising obesity in any way. I don't think this means that we should shame obese people, but we shouldn't accept that it is okay, just as we don't accept that anorexia or bulimia is okay.

Apart from the minority of overweight and obese individuals who suffer from medical issues that cause their weight, people who are obese either exhibit a lack of self control in their eating habits or are lazy (why do you think fad diets are so profitable?), end of story. It's really not that hard for regular people to maintain a healthy weight. Most of the energy that your body burns every day is from respiration and other processes that keep you alive. If you're not overeating you only need relatively minimal exercise to lose (if you're overweight) or maintain your weight at a healthy level.

I am thin and have never been overweight. I don't manage this because I have a high metabolism, I manage it by a few simple things:
1. I only eat when I'm hungry
2. I incorporate exercise into my regular routine (I partake in a brisk 30 min walk every work day just going to and from my train station. On weekends just doing cleaning around the house is enough exercise.)
3. I balance my meals (e.g. I tend to eat a chocolate bar everyday, but I also typically have a salad for lunch and fruit for snacks).

These are very easy things to do. It boggles my mind that obesity is such an epidemic. Throwing excuses around like being busy or that you're overweight because of eating at cultural family get-togethers are just cheap cop outs. If not complacency, it's definitely an eating disorder and should be treated as such.

Another thing I have noticed, which is reflected in some of the items included at the start of this thread (thin person with breast cancer, for example), is that overweight people are now starting to shame thin people (because that's productive). I am so sick of seeing/hearing overweight and obese women say "Men want curves, only dogs want bones" ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ or waving around Marilyn Monroe, as though she were ever obese, as an advocate for obesity being sexy.

What do you think shaming someone for being fat consists of doing?

 

[Lotus the Cat]

What do you think shaming someone for being fat consists of doing?

I don't think pointing out that someone may have an eating problem is fat shaming: that's just honesty. I don't think it's shaming unless it's directed at a personal level at individuals. To have an open consensus that obesity is typically unhealthy and that obese people should do something about it in my opinion is not shaming.

You can't bubble wrap people from hard truths just because you might hurt their feelings, especially if obesity stems from an eating disorder, is perpetuated by one or is associated with a depression-comfort eating feedback loop.

If you had a relative or close friend who was an alcoholic would you refrain from telling them that they drink too much because it might hurt their feelings? Does it shame them to point out that they have a drinking problem? No, it doesn't. Like all addiction, admitting you have a problem is the first step.

 

[Oryx]

I don't think pointing out that someone may have an eating problem is fat shaming: that's just honesty. I don't think it's shaming unless it's directed at a personal level at individuals. To have an open consensus that obesity is typically unhealthy and that obese people should do something about it in my opinion is not shaming.

You can't bubble wrap people from hard truths just because you might hurt their feelings, especially if obesity stems from an eating disorder, is perpetuated by one or is associated with a depression-comfort eating feedback loop.

If you had a relative or close friend who was an alcoholic would you refrain from telling them that they drink too much because it might hurt their feelings? Does it shame them to point out that they have a drinking problem? No, it doesn't. Like all addiction, admitting you have a problem is the first step.

Whoa. There were no implications in my question; it was a sincere question of what you consider fat-shaming. Because to me, "fat people are lazy and that's just a fact" is a quintessential component of fat shaming; insulting all fat people at once and tying fatness to an inherently negative characteristic is a very easy way to put shame on being fat. That's why I asked sincerely what your definition of fat shaming is, since it clearly doesn't align with mine. So, do you think saying "fat people are lazy" is not fat shaming but "Christine, you are fat because you're lazy" is, since you specified that for you it has to come from an individual level?

If I had a relative who was an alcoholic I wouldn't tell them that they're an alcoholic because they don't have enough self-control and any normal person can drink without becoming an alcoholic so it's a flaw in who they are as a person that they can't. You're making a dangerous parallel here; do you think obesity is caused by food addiction?

 

[Lotus the Cat]

Whoa. There were no implications in my question; it was a sincere question of what you consider fat-shaming. Because to me, "fat people are lazy and that's just a fact" is a quintessential component of fat shaming; insulting all fat people at once and tying fatness to an inherently negative characteristic is a very easy way to put shame on being fat. That's why I asked sincerely what your definition of fat shaming is, since it clearly doesn't align with mine. So, do you think saying "fat people are lazy" is not fat shaming but "Christine, you are fat because you're lazy" is, since you specified that for you it has to come from an individual level?

If I had a relative who was an alcoholic I wouldn't tell them that they're an alcoholic because they don't have enough self-control and any normal person can drink without becoming an alcoholic so it's a flaw in who they are as a person that they can't. You're making a dangerous parallel here; do you think obesity is caused by food addiction?

Sorry. I misinterpreted your intended tone in my response.

When I say lazy, I'm not thinking only on physical activity but also the laziness in a person's approach to food choices, meal planning, etc. The lazier you are in the second respect the more likely you are to eat fast food, processed food and too much food (in the sense of total calories). Except where people have medical issues that cause obesity (to their best efforts otherwise) I'm curious to know why you think people are overweight if not for laziness.

Also, yes food can be addictive. Short article here (which references to a lot of studies you can read more of if you like (and have scientific journal access: https://authoritynutrition.com/how-to-overcome-food-addiction/)

Where it is an addiction I think it does more harm to okay that behaviour and we should instead work on assisting people deal with this.

 

[Oryx]

Sorry. I misinterpreted your intended tone in my response.

When I say lazy, I'm not thinking only on physical activity but also the laziness in a person's approach to food choices, meal planning, etc. The lazier you are in the second respect the more likely you are to eat fast food, processed food and too much food (in the sense of total calories). Except where people have medical issues that cause obesity (to their best efforts otherwise) I'm curious to know why you think people are overweight if not for laziness.

Also, yes food can be addictive. Short article here (which references to a lot of studies you can read more of if you like (and have scientific journal access: https://authoritynutrition.com/how-to-overcome-food-addiction/)

Where it is an addiction I think it does more harm to okay that behavior and we should instead work on assisting people deal with this.

Plenty of reasons. Right now, I am at a time in my life where I have enough money to buy a variety of healthy foods, I have plenty of time to cook it, and I have all the resources I could need to figure out how. I'm lucky now. When I was a child, my mom worked three jobs - she worked at an apartment complex during the day, somewhere else I won't mention publicly at night, and delivered newspapers in the mornings. She did not sleep more than 5 hours a night, and she slept every second she was not working. She was also overweight. You would look at her on the street and think "she's so lazy, why doesn't she plan her meals better and choose better food? Why doesn't she exercise?" We had no internet; even if we could afford to eat healthy, my mother knew a total of maybe 3 recipes off the top of her head that were healthy, and only one of those was in our price range - rice and beans (I guess plus some other spices, but those were the only two ingredients, and that's what we called it). So, by your logic, if my mother didn't eat that recipe every single day for years on end, then she is lazy because she didn't make the right food choices? Putting broad, sweeping labels on people is very...self-centered isn't the word I'm looking for because it has a more negative connotation, but those words are what I mean, centered on yourself. Instead of considering that someone else's life is harder than yours and therefore their "laziness" is a result of them directing their efforts elsewhere, you assume that anyone can do it because you can. Saying "that woman working 3 jobs and taking care of two kids is lazy because she's overweight" is misguided.

You should also keep in mind that when your body is stressed, it puts on and keeps on weight. If you have been trying to crash diet to lose the weight that people are telling you you're lazy for having, you tank your metabolism and put on more weight than someone eating the exact same thing. And that once you have been overweight once, those fat cells don't go away and it's easier to become overweight again. And this ignores all the societal pressures towards eating and any possible mental reasons for eating more - for example, my mother was the youngest of 12 children and even if she ate as much as she could she never got much because she had vicious older siblings which transferred over to her weight once she became an adult and had a steady income.

I'm going to go into analogy mode here - there are two ways for managers to influence their employees to work. The first way is through dominance; if the employee makes a mistake, you call them in and tell them how bad they are at their job and threaten them with firing if they don't fix it. The second way is through team building; if the employee makes a mistake, you call them in and let them know that you understand their stress and work with them to find a solution to the problem in a way that doesn't demean them. Guess which way works better to influence people to change?

As far as food addiction, I mentioned it was a dangerous parallel because you've already made it clear that to you being fat is a character flaw because it means they're lazy. Addiction is a physical response beyond control; for one to eat less when they're addicted to food, it's far more difficult than someone like you who's not. So you're walking down a path that argues against your own point.

 

[Lotus the Cat]

Plenty of reasons. Right now, I am at a time in my life where I have enough money to buy a variety of healthy foods, I have plenty of time to cook it, and I have all the resources I could need to figure out how. I'm lucky now. When I was a child, my mom worked three jobs - she worked at an apartment complex during the day, somewhere else I won't mention publicly at night, and delivered newspapers in the mornings. She did not sleep more than 5 hours a night, and she slept every second she was not working. She was also overweight. You would look at her on the street and think "she's so lazy, why doesn't she plan her meals better and choose better food? Why doesn't she exercise?" We had no internet; even if we could afford to eat healthy, my mother knew a total of maybe 3 recipes off the top of her head that were healthy, and only one of those was in our price range - rice and beans (I guess plus some other spices, but those were the only two ingredients, and that's what we called it). So, by your logic, if my mother didn't eat that recipe every single day for years on end, then she is lazy because she didn't make the right food choices? Putting broad, sweeping labels on people is very...self-centered isn't the word I'm looking for because it has a more negative connotation, but those words are what I mean, centered on yourself. Instead of considering that someone else's life is harder than yours and therefore their "laziness" is a result of them directing their efforts elsewhere, you assume that anyone can do it because you can. Saying "that woman working 3 jobs and taking care of two kids is lazy because she's overweight" is misguided.

You should also keep in mind that when your body is stressed, it puts on and keeps on weight. If you have been trying to crash diet to lose the weight that people are telling you you're lazy for having, you tank your metabolism and put on more weight than someone eating the exact same thing. And that once you have been overweight once, those fat cells don't go away and it's easier to become overweight again. And this ignores all the societal pressures towards eating and any possible mental reasons for eating more - for example, my mother was the youngest of 12 children and even if she ate as much as she could she never got much because she had vicious older siblings which transferred over to her weight once she became an adult and had a steady income.

I'm going to go into analogy mode here - there are two ways for managers to influence their employees to work. The first way is through dominance; if the employee makes a mistake, you call them in and tell them how bad they are at their job and threaten them with firing if they don't fix it. The second way is through team building; if the employee makes a mistake, you call them in and let them know that you understand their stress and work with them to find a solution to the problem in a way that doesn't demean them. Guess which way works better to influence people to change?

As far as food addiction, I mentioned it was a dangerous parallel because you've already made it clear that to you being fat is a character flaw because it means they're lazy. Addiction is a physical response beyond control; for one to eat less when they're addicted to food, it's far more difficult than someone like you who's not. So you're walking down a path that argues against your own point.

I disagree that I'm arguing against my own point because I am admitting there are multiple causes for obesity in which accepting obesity as being okay is destructive (e.g. food addiction).

Also, I want to be clear that just because I think some obese people are simply lazy does not mean I want to "beat them down". I agree that the best approach is positive reinforcement but that doesn't change the fact that they may be lazy. Sometimes people need a push in the right direction.

Where factors such as addiction and medical conditions are not at play I still hold that laziness has something to do with it. I think your example with your mum is a valid example but a very rare situation. As a parallel, I did not grow up in a rich family and my family has had issues with finance that affected our diets. At one point my mother fed us liver (which is disgusting) because it was (and still is) far cheaper than regular meat. We had takeaway food very rarely (only on special occaisions) because it was too expensive. Junk food was also considered expensive and highly regulated in our household. I admit we would never have been as poor as you, but junk food is the least economic option to stretch your food dollar. Thus, I'm curious to know what it was that you and your mother ate that made her (and you I infer?) overweight?

I'd also like to add that I was at one point living on no more that $90 a week during university (to cover food, clothing, soap, etc) and I still managed (while being relatively time poor) to eat healthy. One student got scurvy due to the inability to purchase proper food in the long run (2 minute noodles is not a proper diet) but I've not seen cases of obesity spawned from such circumstances.

Also there's nothing wrong with beans and rice. Sometimes when I'm too lazy to cook I tip out a can of kidney beans into a bowl and instant healthy dinner for $1.

 

[Oryx]

I disagree that I'm arguing against my own point because I am admitting there are multiple causes for obesity in which accepting obesity as being okay is destructive (e.g. food addiction).

Also, I want to be clear that just because I think some obese people are simply lazy does not mean I want to "beat them down". I agree that the best approach is positive reinforcement but that doesn't change the fact that they may be lazy. Sometimes people need a push in the right direction.

Where factors such as addiction and medical conditions are not at play I still hold that laziness has something to do with it. I think your example with your mum is a valid example but a very rare situation. As a parallel, I did not grow up in a rich family and my family has had issues with finance that affected our diets. At one point my mother fed us liver (which is disgusting) because it was (and still is) far cheaper than regular meat. We had takeaway food very rarely (only on special occaisions) because it was too expensive. Junk food was also considered expensive and highly regulated in our household. I admit we would never have been as poor as you, but junk food is the least economic option to stretch your food dollar. Thus, I'm curious to know what it was that you and your mother ate that made her (and you I infer?) overweight?

Kraft mac n cheese is $4.50 for 5 boxes, and less if you buy generic like we did. Two boxes would probably feed our family at that time, and that's 2700 calories roughly, or 900 a person. Add the 500-800 from lunch (required to be high-calorie for the food insecure that wouldn't have another meal that day) and another few hundred from breakfast, both paid for by the school because poor, and you're up above 2000. Honestly, I have no idea what my mom ate when I wasn't there because I never asked and I was in school. Probably the same thing we ate all the time though - garlic noodles (pasta + garlic salt and parmesan), rice and beans, instant mac and cheese, quesadillas, taco meat.

You seem to put a barrier between "I think fat people are lazy" and "but I support them in trying to lose weight". This is where you have to stand outside yourself for a moment and realize that you are not going to convince anyone of your sympathy when you say "fat people are lazy". Regardless of you thinking that there is a barrier between those two in your mind, there is not in the minds of the people you are talking to. You are the same as the men who walk around justifying their "no fatties" rule with "I just care about their health", and the same as the women who watch what fat people in the office eat like a hawk and ask "are you really sure you want to participate in the birthday party today sweetie? Do you really need that cake?" There is no line between "I think your fatness is a symptom of a major character flaw, but I don't want you to feel shame about it!"

Clearly we can never agree on anything because liver is delicious. Gimme all yo liver.

Edit to your edit: Actually the worst off aren't even the people who were in my situation; it's the people like some family friends I have, who have a bit of free money but also 5 kids so they're stretched pretty thin. What they don't have is time to research if the salad option is really healthy, or if it's better to cut out fat than carbs, or to prepare a meal that the picky 4 year old plus a healthier meal for the other children plus baby food and on and on and on. These people don't have much luxury in their lives. They can't afford a big TV, they can't afford to go to college, they can't afford a nice car. What they can afford is a few bucks a week extra on food that tastes better. For people that have luxuries, they can easily say "just don't do it, I can, what's your problem?" But for people that don't, it's completely unreasonable to argue that the one affordable luxury they have, unhealthy food, means they're lazy. And if they took out a loan to get a TV, people would call them bad with money, and if they took a vacation, people would tell them they should've saved it. Because they are poor, clearly the only way they can be good enough for people is to dedicate their entire lives to being unhappy.

$90 a week is not even close to worrying about money, wtf. That is not an example of living on less. School isn't even an example of being time poor unless you're also working 30+ hours a week on top of that. You don't have personal experience in this area, so bringing your experiences into it isn't really going to work.