Idea to counter Stealth Rocks

[Venheart]

This is more of a theoretical future concept, basically if you all would like this change in a future game or not.

Stealth Rocks is a pretty oppressive move in competitive because all it takes it one use, and suddenly you're able to chip out damage for your opponent's every switch. It's also something that keeps down a lot of Pokemon who are x2 or x4 weak to Rock who might be able to exist higher up competitively were it not for the threat of Stealth Rocks quartering or halving their health on switch. So here's the idea:

3 New Moves are Introduced:

Permafrost: Lays a trap that deals Ice-Type fractional damage to opposing Pokemon on switch in (Same Values as Stealth Rocks)
Lingering Gloom: Lays a trap that deals Ghost-Type fractional damage to opposing Pokemon on switch in (Same Values as Stealth Rocks; can't be removed with Rapid Spin. Only Defog can remove it)
Twisted Roots: Lays a trap that deals Grass-Type fractional damage to opposing Pokemon on switch in (Same Values as Stealth Rocks; Heals the Pokemon on your side of the field when damage is dealt).

Caveat: Only 1 of these 4 traps can be on one side of the field at a time (Stealth Rocks/Permafrost/Lingering Gloom/Twisted Roots) If you use Stealth Rocks, then use Permafrost, Stealth Rocks will be replaced.

Both Rock and Ice are strong offensive types and offer two different ways to catch opposing Pokemon off guard in different ways. Ghost and Grass are less effective from a coverage standpoint, so they had secondary benefits. Here are the pros and cons:

Stealth Rocks is strong to:
- Fire
- Ice
- Bug
- Flying
Stealth Rocks is resisted by:
- Fighting
- Ground
- Steel
Stealth Rocks has no secondary effect.
Note: Good offensive coverage balanced with just a few resisting types.

Permafrost is strong to:
- Grass
- Ground
- Flying
- Dragon
Permafrost is resisted by:
- Fire
- Water
- Ice
- Steel
Permafrost has no secondary effect.
Note: Great offensive coverage, being able to hit Dragons harder than Stealth Rocks, but is resisted by more types.

Lingering Gloom is strong to:
- Psychic
- Ghost
Lingering Gloom is resisted by:
- Dark
Lingering Gloom does no damage against:
- Normal
Linger Gloom cannot be removed from the field by Rapid Spin.
Note: Harder to resist (Only hazards not resisted by Steel) and remove from the field, but Normal Types ignore it and only Lunala, Lunala-Necrozma, and Hoopa take x4 damage from it.

Twisted Roots is strong to:
- Water
- Ground
- Rock
Twisted Roots is resisted by:
- Grass
- Fire
- Poison
- Flying
- Bug
- Dragon
- Steel
Twisted Roots restores the HP of your Pokemon when an opponent takes damage from it.
Note: Effective against Water and Ground, which is nice, and heals your Pokemon every time your opponent switches out, but is heavily resisted by many common types.

The idea ultimately is to create more competition for Stealth Rocks and open up a window for more Pokemon that are normally crippled by them. How do you like these ideas? Do you think they would make hazards more interesting and maybe open doors for more Pokemon, or would that backfire?

 

[mgriffin]

I imagine that hazard-stacking teams like Stealth Rock's effectiveness vs Flying-types, so it's nice that Permafrost would be able to fill a similar role. Also, being 4× against Landorus-T makes it very interesting.

Lingering Gloom feels a lot like one layer of Spikes in that it typically deals 12.5%. I see a lot of Defog, and not much Rapid Spin, so I wonder if while thematically it makes sense that Defog removes LG, it would be better mechanically for Spin to be the removal move because then there's a niche for LG as the hazard of choice for "hard to remove, small constant chip". Also, I like that the damage is (effectively) capped at 25%—I'd kinda like to see that applied to all the hazards, SR would probably be much less oppressive if it could deal 25% max?

Twisted Roots is neat! Lots of resists, so it's probably not very useful? Assuming it works like Mega Drain, a ½× resist would mean 6.25% damage and so my Pokémon heals ~3% whenever the foe switches? Also, the name sounds like it shouldn't affect Flying-type and/or Levitate Pokémon IMO (but actually I'd prefer it did hit them).

 

[Venheart]

I do think SR should be capped at 25% now, but I think leaving it at a possible 50% would be fine if there were other options allowed Fire, Flying, Bug, and Ice types to possibly breath more. I'd also be fine with both options: Reduce the max damage and add alternatives to make it less dominating against just those types and make some flexibility. Flexibility helps both sides of the fight: It won't always be Fire, Flying, Bug, and Ice Pokemon to get beaten up because of hazards, and the user also has the luxury of making things problematic for other types that can counter their specific team, perhaps.

With Twisted Roots, I was imagining it being like Leech Seed where you receive the full amount, but that can be a little intense against Water/Ground opponents. I think it would just need to be tested with both values and see if the full drain feels too oppressive, but with the grocery list of resistances, that might be necessary to warrant its use over Stealth Rocks.

With Lingering Gloom, I could see what you're saying about Defog vs Rapid Spin, though it would be a bit off that a Normal attack which is commonly blocked by Ghost Pokemon would be the counter to the Ghost hazards. If I were in control, I'd want a test build like Pokemon Showdown and have tournament players and Poketubers test out the combat demo in an attempt to collect information and change things accordingly. Basically create a small Pokemon Stadium simulator where you can build your team with maybe a limited selection of Pokemon (300-400ish maybe, using S/M assets). It wouldn't be very hard really and could be really helpful for balance testing.

Also, I thought of which Pokemon might learn these abilities, so here's the list:
Permafrost -
Level:
Sandshrew/Sandslash (Alola)
Dewgong
Smoochum/Jynx
Lapras
Articuno
Regice
Glaceon
Cryogonal
Amaura/Aurorus
Breeding:
Vulpix/Ninetales (Alola)
Delibird
Snorunt/Glalie/Froslass
Vanillite/Vanillish/Vanilluxe
Bergmite/Avalugg

Lingering Gloom -
Level:
Misdreavus/Mismagius
Shedinja
Sableye
Absol
Shuppet/Banette
Duskull/Dusclops/Dusknoir
Spiritomb
Giratina
Phantump/Trvenant
Dhelmise
Breeding:
Ekans/Arbok
Girafarig
Chingling/Chimecho
Frillish/Jellicent
Espurr/Meowstic
Sandygast/Palossand
Mimikyu

Twisted Roots -
Level:
Paras/Parasect
Bellsprout/Weepinbell/Victreebel
Bellossom
Sunkern/Sunflora
Budew/Roselia/Roserade
Cacnea/Cacturne
Lileep/Cradily
Carnivine
Shaymin
Leavanny
Morelull/Shiinotic
Pumpkaboo/Gourgeist
Breeding:
Chikorita/Bayleef/Meganium
Pineco/Forretress
Burmy/Wormadam/Mothim
Cottonee/Whimsicott
Maractus
Flabebe/Floette/Florges

 

[gimmepie]

Fun concepts, I like them.
That being said, I'm not sure they "counter" Stealth Rock in the sense of making less of a problem, more it changes the flavour of the problem and adds a little versatility. The ice one in particular, has much the same effect and even hurts a lot of the same Pokemon. The ghost one probably wouldn't see much use since it wouldn't effect Normal types and only hits two types super effectively. Most removal is Defog so the no Spinning clause wouldn't change anything really. Not sure on the Grass one, could be interesting to stack it with Grassy Terrain though.