Is Ash a disappointment?

[weedle_mchairybug]

Yes in 1v1 battles i'm talking about a full 6v6 battle. And how are BF and OI side wins?

I can understand Battle Frontier being technically a "side win" (even though Scott made it pretty clear that, at the very least, the E4 were par with the Battle Frontier Brains in overall skill and power), but how the heck is the OI a side win? Last I checked, that's a full-fledged league. And besides, the Silver Conference wasn't even IN the games either (in GSC, we had to go to the Indigo Plateau in Kanto to challenge the league, so technically, Johto didn't even have its own league since the league we challenged was directly in Kanto), are you going to call THAT a side event due to technically being anime-only?

 

[Alexander18]

Yes in 1v1 battles i'm talking about a full 6v6 battle. And how are BF and OI side wins?

Because leagues in regions like kanto are the main competitions. I am happy with Ash losing the league because it motivates him to go to new region.

 

[SH60]

Because leagues in regions like kanto are the main competitions. I am happy with Ash losing the league because it motivates him to go to new region.

He can win leagues and still be motivated to go to a new region.

 

[Alexander18]

He can win leagues and still be motivated to go to a new region.

I don't know. I prefer that he loses and gets motivate. I think he learns better that way.

 

[SH60]

I don't know. I prefer that he loses and gets motivate. I think he learns better that way.

And learns what thats its ok to lose? To me is would be better if he won some league because proves thats hes getting stronger but he can get stronger by going to a new region.

 

[Alexander18]

And learns what thats its ok to lose? To me is would be better if he won some league because proves thats hes getting stronger but he can get stronger by going to a new region.

Well Ash did landed top 2 in kalos. He either actually wins next region or he pulls another Unova and lands top 4 or top 8.

 

[Rajas20]

And learns what thats its ok to lose? To me is would be better if he won some league because proves thats hes getting stronger but he can get stronger by going to a new region.

I agree, I felt it was important for him to win some and lose some so he could learn he won't always be on top but he could fight to remain there. His traveling to a new region anyways is always built on his sense of adventure so even when he wins he'd go to conquer somewhere else.

 

[pkmin3033]

It's the way the show is written that makes Ash's losses so disappointing - the writers introduce these rival characters out of nowhere towards the end of the series literally JUST so they have someone they can use to take him out. Ritchie, Harisson, Tyson, Tobias, Cameron...Alain was an especially bitter loss as he actually received some form of character development and Ash SHOULD have beaten him based on this.

I think the point where it's OK for Ash to lose major leagues has long past, because it's always the same thing every time, and since Gen IV the writers have been ranging from desperate (Tobias) to lazy (Cameron) to outright incomprehensible (Alain) for the circumstances for those losses. I'd say Tobias was the least disappointing of those because they made it feel like an achievement, but Cameron was a dismal loss, and Alain...that was a knife between the ribs.

I don't think Ash being reset is necessarily a problem, because since Johto the anime has been fairly self-contained in each arc, outside of the occasional episodes that reference past events to remind us they happened when they need Charizard or whoever to fill in a plot hole. The issue is that Ash's character development throughout the series is being fudged at the end.

 

[weedle_mchairybug]

It's the way the show is written that makes Ash's losses so disappointing - the writers introduce these rival characters out of nowhere towards the end of the series literally JUST so they have someone they can use to take him out. Ritchie, Harisson, Tyson, Tobias, Cameron...Alain was an especially bitter loss as he actually received some form of character development and Ash SHOULD have beaten him based on this.

I think the point where it's OK for Ash to lose major leagues has long past, because it's always the same thing every time, and since Gen IV the writers have been ranging from desperate (Tobias) to lazy (Cameron) to outright incomprehensible (Alain) for the circumstances for those losses. I'd say Tobias was the least disappointing of those because they made it feel like an achievement, but Cameron was a dismal loss, and Alain...that was a knife between the ribs.

I don't think Ash being reset is necessarily a problem, because since Johto the anime has been fairly self-contained in each arc, outside of the occasional episodes that reference past events to remind us they happened when they need Charizard or whoever to fill in a plot hole. The issue is that Ash's character development throughout the series is being fudged at the end.

Agreed with you regarding that. And quite frankly, I found Hoenn to be even MORE disappointing to be honest, the most disappointing of all of Ash's losses save for maybe Unova's (and even THAT's mostly because of Ash's getting an even WORSE rank than before). Ash only managed to get the EXACT same rank he earned in Johto, which made his entire trek through Hoenn completely pointless. You could skip the entirety of AG and not miss much, THAT'S the problem, that it reinforced just how much of a pointless saga it was. And quite frankly, Ash doing the same as before made the already humiliating Gym Leader wins Ash dished out starting with Flannery even WORSE due to the fact that he never improved in any significant measurable way. Say what you will about the DP and XY results, at least there, Ash actually increased in rank and thus actually CAN be measured regarding his growing more proficient. Even Unova, as stupid as the results of that were that made Ash an idiot, at least had an actual change in his ranking, even if it wasn't a good one. AG, by far, was just downright pointless. Not even Ash's win against the Battle Frontier, pretty much his one true accomplishment in the entirety of AG, could make up for it, ESPECIALLY not when Gary managed to beat Ash with Electivire despite Gary flat out retiring from the trainer profession.

I'd beg to differ regarding Ash's level resets. If anything, they're a major part of the problem. As a consequence of those resets, any development Ash gains is rendered entirely meaningless because he's right back where he started by next saga. And don't get me started on how Ash's whole goal of wanting to become a Pokémon Master would require a lot of continuity, and thus make the whole resets even MORE pointless. There's only so much to take of this before even potential new fans end up staying away from it out of disgust, much less the long-time fans leaving in droves.

 

[pkmin3033]

Agreed with you regarding that. And quite frankly, I found Hoenn to be even MORE disappointing to be honest, the most disappointing of all of Ash's losses save for maybe Unova's (and even THAT's mostly because of Ash's getting an even WORSE rank than before). Ash only managed to get the EXACT same rank he earned in Johto, which made his entire trek through Hoenn completely pointless. You could skip the entirety of AG and not miss much, THAT'S the problem, that it reinforced just how much of a pointless saga it was. And quite frankly, Ash doing the same as before made the already humiliating Gym Leader wins Ash dished out starting with Flannery even WORSE due to the fact that he never improved in any significant measurable way. Say what you will about the DP and XY results, at least there, Ash actually increased in rank and thus actually CAN be measured regarding his growing more proficient. Even Unova, as stupid as the results of that were that made Ash an idiot, at least had an actual change in his ranking, even if it wasn't a good one. AG, by far, was just downright pointless. Not even Ash's win against the Battle Frontier, pretty much his one true accomplishment in the entirety of AG, could make up for it, ESPECIALLY not when Gary managed to beat Ash with Electivire despite Gary flat out retiring from the trainer profession.

I'd beg to differ regarding Ash's level resets. If anything, they're a major part of the problem. As a consequence of those resets, any development Ash gains is rendered entirely meaningless because he's right back where he started by next saga. And don't get me started on how Ash's whole goal of wanting to become a Pok?mon Master would require a lot of continuity, and thus make the whole resets even MORE pointless. There's only so much to take of this before even potential new fans end up staying away from it out of disgust, much less the long-time fans leaving in droves.

Actually, Ash's ridiculous wins in AG started with Wattson, given that he flat-out demolished him with zero effort - sure, there was a reason for that, but it wasn't a particularly good one. Although in context I would agree with you that Ash's AG result was especially disappointing given his portrayal in the anime overall. That the noteworthy rivals were May's didn't help matters either; there was nobody to really challenge Ash or show how much he'd grown. That feeling of pointlessness is one that permeates almost every series though, because even though Ash comes a little closer to winning the league, he forgets about it all anyway and the rivals are never seen nor heard from again. It's just something that happens: it doesn't inspire him to get better. He just moves on to the next region and abandons all his Pokemon...which is pretty cruel when you think about it!

What I meant regarding the level resets was that if Ash was always written well then it wouldn't matter...at least, not in the context of that individual anime arc; the series as a whole is another matter entirely. But DP Ash, in my opinion, is the best Ash has ever been, and even though he brought back some of his old Pokemon for the Sinnoh League, the fact remains that he started off losing to Gary's Electivire, which Pikachu should have utterly destroyed coming off a Regice. He made a lot of stupid rookie mistakes he shouldn't have made too. But he was consistent, he improved a lot over the course of the anime and, even though he lost, he still managed to take out Tobias' Darkrai, which nobody else managed to do.

Without the level/memory resets he'd power clean through Gyms, his rivals would pose no threat, and it would be even less interesting to watch than it is now. Of course in the larger context the resets are a HUGE problem because they undo each season's development the second it ends, but in terms of each series individually I don't think the resets are the problem; the writing during the arc and how that corresponds to the end result is. Outside of the OS and DP, his losses are not in keeping with the character development he has undergone in that region, and I think that's a bigger problem than the level resets.

 

[Alexander18]

Ash did badly in unova since Pikachu had it's power absorbed by Zekrom and because he caught too many pokemon.

Ash was not going to win the league even if he did reach top 4 of unova. This is about Ash's adventure. It is not about winning.

 

[SH60]

Ash did badly in unova since Pikachu had it's power absorbed by Zekrom and because he caught too many pokemon.

Ash was not going to win the league even if he did reach top 4 of unova. This is about Ash's adventure. It is not about winning.

Well he needs to win at some point at this point it makes no sense for him to keep losing. And Unova in a whole was bad.

 

[weedle_mchairybug]

Actually, Ash's ridiculous wins in AG started with Wattson, given that he flat-out demolished him with zero effort - sure, there was a reason for that, but it wasn't a particularly good one. Although in context I would agree with you that Ash's AG result was especially disappointing given his portrayal in the anime overall. That the noteworthy rivals were May's didn't help matters either; there was nobody to really challenge Ash or show how much he'd grown. That feeling of pointlessness is one that permeates almost every series though, because even though Ash comes a little closer to winning the league, he forgets about it all anyway and the rivals are never seen nor heard from again. It's just something that happens: it doesn't inspire him to get better. He just moves on to the next region and abandons all his Pokemon...which is pretty cruel when you think about it!

What I meant regarding the level resets was that if Ash was always written well then it wouldn't matter...at least, not in the context of that individual anime arc; the series as a whole is another matter entirely. But DP Ash, in my opinion, is the best Ash has ever been, and even though he brought back some of his old Pokemon for the Sinnoh League, the fact remains that he started off losing to Gary's Electivire, which Pikachu should have utterly destroyed coming off a Regice. He made a lot of stupid rookie mistakes he shouldn't have made too. But he was consistent, he improved a lot over the course of the anime and, even though he lost, he still managed to take out Tobias' Darkrai, which nobody else managed to do.

Without the level/memory resets he'd power clean through Gyms, his rivals would pose no threat, and it would be even less interesting to watch than it is now. Of course in the larger context the resets are a HUGE problem because they undo each season's development the second it ends, but in terms of each series individually I don't think the resets are the problem; the writing during the arc and how that corresponds to the end result is. Outside of the OS and DP, his losses are not in keeping with the character development he has undergone in that region, and I think that's a bigger problem than the level resets.

I chose Flannery mostly because that was the starting point where Ash's rookie teams were starting to outright humiliate the Gym Leaders a'la how Caterpie defeated Team Rocket in "Ash Catches a Pok?mon." As bad as the win against Wattson was (bad enough that both Ash AND Wattson looked like cheaters due to the latter using a mechanical Raikou that started that whole mess with Pikachu being significantly OP even for him), I have even WORSE issues with the fact that Ash's rookie team was humiliating Gym Leaders. I could expect that kind of humiliation regarding Team Rocket, NOT trainers who during the Original series were considered very cr?me of the crop trainers DESPITE not being Elite 4 level (and for the record, it already made the already bad decision to remove Misty and force her into the Cerulean Gym seem even WORSE, since that essentially implied she's going to be a huge punching bag for rookie trainers and thus have her potential decrease sharply as a boulder off a Cliffside). Roxanne at least lost to Pikachu, an established veteran, and Brawley's pretty much the only Hoenn gym leader to actually BEAT Ash in a battle and require a rematch, so he's exempted for obvious reasons.

As far as DP, DP definitely had a slightly better Ash due to actually working hard to do things, but I'd argue it's not good enough: They still had the Gym Leaders only coming across as impressive due to Pikachu coming across as weak, despite his beating a Regice (which STILL made the Gym Leaders look bad in a different way), and don't get me started on how Pikachu lost to Paul's Ursaring despite it being one of his newer Pok?mon (and this was DESPITE Paul losing to the same Pok?mon Pikachu trounced earlier). If any of the post-OS gym leaders come across as exceptional, it's the XY gym leaders, due to the fact that they manage to come across as extremely competent in their jobs, give Ash and Pikachu a run for their money in such a way that DOESN'T make them look incompetent either, there are explicit showcases on how the Gym Leaders are skilled, and even the one instance where Ash beat a gym leader with rookies on the first try, its made clear that this was due to a self-imposed handicap on the gym leader's part. The Kalos Gym Leaders if anything came the closest to the original gym leaders in true competency.

And honestly, boring or not, I would tolerate Ash winning all the time if it at LEAST ensured that he retained his development and skillsets, rather than having all his development completely undone due to forced level resets. This isn't The Simpsons where there's negative continuity, this has a defined goal for Ash, and what I want is for Ash to actually MEET said goal.

Ash was not going to win the league even if he did reach top 4 of unova. This is about Ash's adventure. It is not about winning.

Problem is, he has a goal of trying to become the World's Greatest Pok?mon Master, meaning winning is KEY to his goal. Otherwise, have him just mentioning he has no goal other than liking adventure. Like Sonic, for example.

 

[pkmin3033]

I chose Flannery mostly because that was the starting point where Ash's rookie teams were starting to outright humiliate the Gym Leaders a'la how Caterpie defeated Team Rocket in "Ash Catches a Pok?mon." As bad as the win against Wattson was (bad enough that both Ash AND Wattson looked like cheaters due to the latter using a mechanical Raikou that started that whole mess with Pikachu being significantly OP even for him), I have even WORSE issues with the fact that Ash's rookie team was humiliating Gym Leaders. I could expect that kind of humiliation regarding Team Rocket, NOT trainers who during the Original series were considered very cr?me of the crop trainers DESPITE not being Elite 4 level (and for the record, it already made the already bad decision to remove Misty and force her into the Cerulean Gym seem even WORSE, since that essentially implied she's going to be a huge punching bag for rookie trainers and thus have her potential decrease sharply as a boulder off a Cliffside). Roxanne at least lost to Pikachu, an established veteran, and Brawley's pretty much the only Hoenn gym leader to actually BEAT Ash in a battle and require a rematch, so he's exempted for obvious reasons.

As far as DP, DP definitely had a slightly better Ash due to actually working hard to do things, but I'd argue it's not good enough: They still had the Gym Leaders only coming across as impressive due to Pikachu coming across as weak, despite his beating a Regice (which STILL made the Gym Leaders look bad in a different way), and don't get me started on how Pikachu lost to Paul's Ursaring despite it being one of his newer Pok?mon (and this was DESPITE Paul losing to the same Pok?mon Pikachu trounced earlier). If any of the post-OS gym leaders come across as exceptional, it's the XY gym leaders, due to the fact that they manage to come across as extremely competent in their jobs, give Ash and Pikachu a run for their money in such a way that DOESN'T make them look incompetent either, there are explicit showcases on how the Gym Leaders are skilled, and even the one instance where Ash beat a gym leader with rookies on the first try, its made clear that this was due to a self-imposed handicap on the gym leader's part. The Kalos Gym Leaders if anything came the closest to the original gym leaders in true competency.

And honestly, boring or not, I would tolerate Ash winning all the time if it at LEAST ensured that he retained his development and skillsets, rather than having all his development completely undone due to forced level resets. This isn't The Simpsons where there's negative continuity, this has a defined goal for Ash, and what I want is for Ash to actually MEET said goal.

That's fair enough; I can see your point there. Although Watson and Winona in particular remind me of a lot of Ash's earlier battles against OS Gym Leaders, where he pulls out the most unbelievable bullshit to win a battle. OS Gym Leaders were definitely more impressive, but some of their battles (Brock and Blaine spring to mind here) are amongst some of the worst...I mean, even Misty commented at one point that Ash was earning Gym Badges out of pity in the dub, and a lot of his victories were more circumstantial than outright tests of skill.

A self-imposed handicap is still an excuse to have him get ahead, though - it undermines the Gym Leader as we never get to see them fight seriously, and as a result it feels as though Ash cruises on through with no real struggles to speak of. I think how he wins is far more important than if he loses, and if he wins because the Gym Leader isn't really trying then there is no sense of progression. Although I would agree with you that it isn't really good enough. I would like to think its intentional to make his league losses more believable (after all, everyone else there has done the same things he has to get there) but that's giving them a little too much credit, really.

With DP there was a sense of scaling challenge that was lacking in XY - Ash could beat Gym Leaders, but he couldn't beat the Elite Four, and Paul 6-0'd to Cynthia. Compare this to XY, where Ash loses against Gym Leaders but practically beats Diantha and then loses to Alain in the finals. XY would have been one of the best series if they hadn't of royally screwed with the balance of power towards the end of it to compensate for Ash not having a Mega Evolution...and this happens every single time one way or another. In the end it doesn't matter how strong or weak Ash's rookies are, because that strength always fails in the most unbelievable way imaginable when it counts. I'd tout DP as the sole exception after OS because Legendaries are Legendaries, but I'd acknowledge that even that is a cheap way to get him to lose.

I think Ash winning all the time could be great if it was handled properly - just making his rivals stronger, or the Gym Leaders more challenging, would work just as well. I mean, plenty of long-running shows have unbeatable protagonists...Yugi Mutou comes to mind here for some reason. It also makes their losses that much more potent for their character if they lose. Even if you know someone is going to win, if the battle plays out at times like they MIGHT lose - and they've lost before - it can be thrilling viewing. And they're definitely capable of that, because Ash won the Orange League - which was still a league - and the battle there went all over the place. Why they cannot duplicate that with a game region-based league I do not know.

 

[Alexander18]

Well he needs to win at some point at this point it makes no sense for him to keep losing. And Unova in a hole was bad.

Ash can win regular battles. As long as he beats every gym/trial then it is fine. However, i will not complain if Ash wins a league in a region that exists in both games and anime.

 

[SH60]

Ash can win regular battles. As long as he beats every gym/trial then it is fine. However, i will not complain if Ash wins a league in a region that exists in both games and anime.

But if he doesn't win the league or whatever the final thing in Alola and he does worst than before then what was the point of it.

 

[janejane6178]

In one word- YES.
I really liked him doing his XY period. He was competitive and had a serious personality. But I was really upset to see him releasing TWO Pokemon in the same episode (Goodra and Greninja). Also, his personality in Alola ( As well as his ugly new artstyle which I will never be able to get used to ) is TOO childish

 

[Alexander18]

But if he doesn't win the league or whatever the final thing in Alola and he does worst than before then what was the point of it.

We have to wait and see. I am not convinced that we will see him win in the future but there is a 5% chance he may win one day.

 

[SH60]

We have to wait and see. I am not convinced that we will see him win in the future but there is a 5% chance he may win one day.

Ash learns nothing from losing he made it to the top 2 in Kalos at this point he needs to make it to the same place or win.

 

[weedle_mchairybug]

Ash learns nothing from losing he made it to the top 2 in Kalos at this point he needs to make it to the same place or win.

No, not even make the same place. He needs to WIN at this point, no ifs, ands, or buts. Hoenn showed how making the same place as before is a very BAD idea.