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Itallian Scientist - Vaccines make children gay

5,983
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15
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I don't see how Gay Pride integrates the gay population into mainstream society. I think respect for sexual orientation should be developed and is absolutely necessary to treat all people as they deserve, but Gay Pride I feel rather imposes a particular image of homosexuality that has nothing to do with homosexuality itself, but a sub-culture. See what I'm getting at?

Being gay has nothing to do with rainbows, or dressing in drag, or acting as effeminate as you can with a couple of other guys that are also effeminate. What about people that are queer and just dgaf? I don't see it as marching for equality, but being as outspoken as possible - it's important to modify your message to your audience. I don't want to see the queer back in the closet, but I don't want to see them appropriate rainbows or waving around pompoms either. There once was a day when rainbows were just rainbows. Now I can't display that without people thinking I'm making a statement - and that is the reason why I am against it. I am a conservative person who doesn't make statements - I make arguments. But now it's all about "expressing yourself" and I find that to be incredibly superficial. I think more of the people marching should take the example of CF members who march. They show me that queer people are normal people, and are contributing to society just like everybody else.

And your association with prostitutes and drug users goes as far as not donating blood. It's not offensive at all to me because there is no inherent connection. Drug users and prostitutes, I guess offend common sensibility - define that how you will, while gay men don't, so nobody's going to look down upon you because you share the same trait as not being able to donate blood and organs. They will for other reasons, but it's a false comparison and not really a reason to feel offended.

The reason that gay men are not allowed to donate blood and organs is the prevalence of HIV/AIDS in that population. In fact, MSM (men who have sex with men, as it's known in the literature because it doesn't matter your orientation but your behaviour really) are responsible for a majority of the incidences of HIV/AIDS even though they are a small minority of the population. It is not discrimination that MSM are overrepresented in the statistics. Now I agree there should be some provisions, like a time delay due to the virus' undetectability shortly after infection, laid out for long-term monogamous relationships. But I don't think it's a big deal anyways. My girlfriend donates blood, I'm too much of a scaredy cat to do it so even if I was gay I'd just say aha! I'm not allowed thank you very much with no harm done to my masculinity!
 

Mr. X

It's... kinda effective?
2,391
Posts
17
Years
Yes and no really.

The ban was first put in place during the hiv/aids scare years.

Banning them now, especially sense a person is tested for STD's before donating, is stupid.

Even if they are infected I find it stupid to ban them, at least, from organ donation. Let them donate organs - Keep them for use in hiv/aids infected people.
 

TRIFORCE89

Guide of Darkness
8,123
Posts
19
Years
Yes and no really.

The ban was first put in place during the hiv/aids scare years.

Banning them now, especially sense a person is tested for STD's before donating, is stupid.

Even if they are infected I find it stupid to ban them, at least, from organ donation. Let them donate organs - Keep them for use in hiv/aids infected people.
Testing is fine. But, having a stock for infected people? Eh... I don't really trust the bureaucratic powers that be to never ever mix those up
 
900
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  • Age 51
  • Seen Jul 22, 2016
I don't see how Gay Pride integrates the gay population into mainstream society. I think respect for sexual orientation should be developed and is absolutely necessary to treat all people as they deserve, but Gay Pride I feel rather imposes a particular image of homosexuality that has nothing to do with homosexuality itself, but a sub-culture. See what I'm getting at?

Would it surprise you to learn that those exact sub-cultures exist beyond the LGBT community?


Being gay has nothing to do with rainbows

The Pride flag, or colours, has nothing to do with a rainbow. Each of the colours on the flag represent something. Originally, the flag featured 8 colours. But since 1979, the flag has had only 6. Here is what each of the colours on the current flag represents:

Red: Life
Orange: Healing
Yellow: Sunlight
Green: Nature
Blue: Serenity/Harmony
Violet: Spirit


or dressing in drag, or acting as effeminate as you can with a couple of other guys that are also effeminate.

A couple points: A good number of the people who dress in drag are not in fact gay. A lot are straight and dress in drag because they are performing artists. Being effeminate has nothing to do with one's sexual orientation. There are plenty of effeminate guys who are actually straight. I know three such individuals who I work with. People automatically assume because their are more effeminate that they must be gay. But you know what they say about making assumptions.

I don't see it as marching for equality, but being as outspoken as possible - it's important to modify your message to your audience.

History of the Pride Parade:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pride_parade

Yes, I know it's Wikipedia, but the information there is accurate.

Pride is a celebration of LGBT culture, but it is also a continual demonstration against discrimination. One only has to look at the signs marchers carry into the parade to see that each one is advocating a specific message.

As for modifying the message to our audience: Pride is ever changing. Some things stay the same, but other things evolve. Our audience is increasingly not of the LGBT community, but rather the gay supportive straight community. In 2014 Toronto will host World Pride, which is expected to draw in record crowds the likes of which the Village has never seen. People will be coming from all over the world, straight and gay alike to show their support for the LGBT community.

I don't want to see the queer back in the closet, but I don't want to see them appropriate rainbows or waving around pompoms either.

Rainbows have been used by religious organizations, by military groups, and by advocacy groups. It's a powerful symbol and I see nothing wrong with anyone using it. I'm actually surprised that you'd be against it. The funny thing is, almost everything we do in life serves to make a statement. For instance, a ring on someone's finger indicates their commitment to another individual, a powerful statement indeed. Almost everything you do in your life serves to make one statement or another. It's human nature.

Also, can you please refrain from using the term queer to refer to the LGBT community. The term is disrespectful.


And your association with prostitutes and drug users goes as far as not donating blood. It's not offensive at all to me because there is no inherent connection.

Of course it doesn't to you, which is why you're so easily able to shrug it off. It is extremely offensive. I'm just sorry that you can't see it. Imagine, not being able to help someone else because who you love makes you the same, in the government's eyes, as someone who carries a dangerous disease. Insulting doesn't even begin to describe the discrimination there.


The reason that gay men are not allowed to donate blood and organs is the prevalence of HIV/AIDS in that population. In fact, MSM (men who have sex with men, as it's known in the literature because it doesn't matter your orientation but your behaviour really) are responsible for a majority of the incidences of HIV/AIDS even though they are a small minority of the population. It is not discrimination that MSM are overrepresented in the statistics. Now I agree there should be some provisions, like a time delay due to the virus' undetectability shortly after infection, laid out for long-term monogamous relationships. But I don't think it's a big deal anyways.

Your information is out of date. The highest growth of HIV/AIDS is actually in the black straight community, and that largely due to lack of education on STDs, and because most are very fearful of the stigma attached to HIV/AIDS infected people and so do not get tested like everyone should. Even those not sexually active. Also, why is it that heterosexuals who engage in risky sexual behaviour do not face a life-time ban, while gays do, regardless of whether the person is in a monogamous relationship? The rules do not match the current medical and scientific evidence. The Red Cross, in fact, is a major organization responsible for collecting blood donations and they are trying to get the government to eliminate the life-time bans. The government is not listening, however, and is in fact ignoring scientific studies regarding this disease.
 

TRIFORCE89

Guide of Darkness
8,123
Posts
19
Years
Would it surprise you to learn that those exact sub-cultures exist beyond the LGBT community?
No, it wouldn't surprise me. But then again... why is it there? Some of the outfits, or lack thereof rather, just... why? Why does that need to be out in public? It's different than say what was formerly known as Caribana, which often comes up as a counter-argument due to skimpy clothing. The purpose of the outfits are different. Caribana is like elaborate caricatures of beach-ware, whereas some of what's on display at the pride parade really only makes sense in the bedroom for those interested.

It's kinda what warps the purpose of the event in the eyes of many from a cultural parade to a sex parade. Which I don't think is the intention. It's comes off as very one-track minded.

The Pride flag, or colours, has nothing to do with a rainbow. Each of the colours on the flag represent something. Originally, the flag featured 8 colours. But since 1979, the flag has had only 6. Here is what each of the colours on the current flag represents:

Red: Life
Orange: Healing
Yellow: Sunlight
Green: Nature
Blue: Serenity/Harmony
Violet: Spirit
I can understand most of the representations. A bit lost on the sunlight though. What's the relation?

Also, can you please refrain from using the term queer to refer to the LGBT community. The term is disrespectful.
Where does "Queers Against Israeli Apartheid" fall into play in terms of offensiveness? Or purpose in the pride event? Kinda echoing what BlahISuck said below, I'd find the whole thing a lot more palatable if it was more of a social/cultural event. The city has a lot of them. You go, you listen to some music, have some food, maybe a street performance. You're not actively being force-fed statements. That's not a fun-day out for me.
 
Last edited:
5,983
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Would it surprise you to learn that those exact sub-cultures exist beyond the LGBT community?

The very fact that they are subculture defines them against mainstream culture. There are plenty of us who don't identify with a subculture at all. It's like how you can be feminist without subscribing to a radical feminist subculture. Many gay people define themselves through their families, through their work, etc - but not through a subculture.

The Pride flag, or colours, has nothing to do with a rainbow. Each of the colours on the flag represent something. Originally, the flag featured 8 colours. But since 1979, the flag has had only 6. Here is what each of the colours on the current flag represents:

The Pride flag has to do with a rainbow in the same way the Nazi's took the swastika. Sure it doesn't mean rainbow like roygbiv, but calling it the rainbow flag is synonymous with calling it the Pride flag. It's a fact of vernacular. The fact that the colours represents something doesn't mean identifying it as a rainbow is somehow in exclusion to that.

A couple points: A good number of the people who dress in drag are not in fact gay. A lot are straight and dress in drag because they are performing artists. Being effeminate has nothing to do with one's sexual orientation. There are plenty of effeminate guys who are actually straight. I know three such individuals who I work with. People automatically assume because their are more effeminate that they must be gay. But you know what they say about making assumptions.

It's not about being gay or not. It's about whether gay people themselves identify with the subculture. I, personally don't identify with drag. And I know gay people who don't either... I don't know why you're misconstruing that I think it's somehow wrong to be gay. I'm emphasizing that most gay people are normal people who aren't involved in a subculture. It's pretty fringe, and most gay people, like most other people, like to live normal lives in the bound of mass culture.

Rainbows have been used by religious organizations, by military groups, and by advocacy groups. It's a powerful symbol and I see nothing wrong with anyone using it. I'm actually surprised that you'd be against it. The funny thing is, almost everything we do in life serves to make a statement. For instance, a ring on someone's finger indicates their commitment to another individual, a powerful statement indeed. Almost everything you do in your life serves to make one statement or another. It's human nature.

I don't think it's appropriate for me to display a swastika in public, whether it turns the right way or the wrong way. Similarly, the Pride flag as associated rainbow with LGBT. It's something that is now deeply ingrained in the national consciousness. If I'm on campus and I see a rainbow button, am I going to think, oh they might be part of an obscure advocacy group? Of course not, it's a statement of alliance with the LGBT community.

Not everybody subscribes to making statements like you do. If I put a ring on my finger, that's probably because I'm conforming to social norms, not because I'm actively making a statement. Supporting the LGBT is most certainly an active statement, due to its progressive nature. You do things to make statements, but there are conservative people out there that don't make statements. We are silent, but because we are it doesn't mean you should overlook us.

Also, can you please refrain from using the term queer to refer to the LGBT community. The term is disrespectful.

That's not a vibe I've felt from the LGBT community. Queer is just an umbrella term that encompasses everyone without a mainstream orientation that might be missed out by LGBT. It's used often, even in gay literature. It's offensive to you, but maybe that's because you grew up in a different time period. The term is being reappropriated by us young-uns as something to do with pride.

Of course it doesn't to you, which is why you're so easily able to shrug it off. It is extremely offensive. I'm just sorry that you can't see it. Imagine, not being able to help someone else because who you love makes you the same, in the government's eyes, as someone who carries a dangerous disease. Insulting doesn't even begin to describe the discrimination there.

Discriminatory yes. I objected to the connection you made with prostitutes and drug users though, and I don't see that connection at all. Not being able to donate blood isn't usually a characteristic you use to group yourself with other people.

Your information is out of date. The highest growth of HIV/AIDS is actually in the black straight community, and that largely due to lack of education on STDs, and because most are very fearful of the stigma attached to HIV/AIDS infected people and so do not get tested like everyone should. Even those not sexually active. Also, why is it that heterosexuals who engage in risky sexual behaviour do not face a life-time ban, while gays do, regardless of whether the person is in a monogamous relationship? The rules do not match the current medical and scientific evidence.

I don't know how quickly statistics change, but these are government statistics that are funded by taxpayer money. I've got data from the US and Canada. In terms of both prevalence and incidence, MSM do account for a plurality and disproportionately too.

http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/aids-sida/publication/survreport/estimat2011-eng.php
http://www.cdc.gov/nchhstp/newsroom/docs/2012/HIV-Infections-2007-2010.pdf
 
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