Lati@s Suspect Test Discussion

[Syaoran]

Latios will not be OU imo. It is far too deadly, OU is enough having 2 pokemon with extremely overpowered (and yeah, it is over an overpowered move) Draco Meteor - Latias and Salamence. Even steels don't enjoy switching in, as some of them (like Metagross), with 252 HP EVs, get stripped over 50% damage. 130 base SAtk Draco Meteor is really pushing it, backed up by incredible speed and no double weaknesses to exploit.

 

[dark_seeker]

Latios will not be OU imo. It is far too deadly, OU is enough having 2 pokemon with extremely overpowered (and yeah, it is over an overpowered move) Draco Meteor - Latias and Salamence. Even steels don't enjoy switching in, as some of them (like Metagross), with 252 HP EVs, get stripped over 50% damage. 130 base SAtk Draco Meteor is really pushing it, backed up by incredible speed and no double weaknesses to exploit.

agreed on the point that it is deadly but it gets revenge killed pretty decently by a number of pokes and it would not have its signature item soul dew so i think there will be chances that it may be put into ou.and the fact that its got not one 4x and 1 2x but a no. of weaknesses so wide range of pokes can hit it hard.
Question:lucario was brought up at one point..can choice scarf dark pulse ko latios?(mild/216 sp.att)

 

[Syaoran]

How exactly is it revenge killed so easily >>;

 

[Shen]

Latios will not be moved down to OU. Latias was moved down due to the way the metagame works now. It's all about hitting hard and fast and the use of walls have greatly diminished. Latios remains a very potent sweeper in the Uber environment from what I can tell, whereas Latias doesn't have the sheer stats to really compete. Correct me if I'm wrong, I very rarely Uber.

 

[dark_seeker]

i have been playing ubers latly and i have'nt seen to many latios as there other pokes in that enviorment which hit equally hard if not harder.latias is used but only defesive sets as latias doesn't have the sheer power to break uber walls.

EDIT : Scarf mixLucario(Mild,216 sp.att)cannot revenge kill latios 6 hp/0 sp.def.As it only manages definite 2ko.52.98-62.88 or some such.

How exactly is it revenge killed so easily >>;

I did not say easily but i said effectivly.i mean weavile,tyranitar and scarf heracross.Revenge kill it with pursuit/megahorn.im sure there are other effective revenge killers out there who can take on latios.
Revenge killing is the easy part.The hard part is choosing which pokemon is going to go so you can get a free switch.there's were the point about counters come which i dont see to many of speaking of,can cressilia counter and still have enough health to moonlight it of ?

 

[.]

I think the reason people rarely use Latios is because something like Palkia is usually a lot more threatening. Plus there are many things to incapitate it, and it doesn't switch in as easily. Let's not forget the one and only Blissey stops it.

Latios is still good in Ubers, albeit not fantastic, like it is in OU.

 

[Anti]

Um who cares if you can revenge kill a Choice Specs Pokemon lol ? Unless it's Pursuiting Latios (which is really its only big weakness), it's pretty much irrelevant. I mean how much sense does "Hey, let's sacrifice something to force Latios to switch out!" make? ._. for the Calm Minder that argument is a lot better, but for something that is hit and run anyways I don't see how that's an argument against Specs Latios at all.

Picking our revenge killers to beat it isn't an intelligent way to go about it - I assure you, I could round up a few solid revenge killers for a lot of Uber Pokemon. "Revenge kill Pokemon X" is such stupid theorymon anyway seeing as they just switch. This isn't Garchomp where it's locked into Outrage and loses a Swords Dance boost when it switches out...this is a simple Choice Specs Pokemon. If revenge killing is the best argument against Specs Latios then I will fight to the end for it to be banned.

That being said, I haven't played suspect so I wouldn't know if it's Uber or not. I just wanted to mention how useless revenge killing a Choice user is unless they can't escape.

 

[Shen]

If you can only counter it by revenge killing, it has no place in that tier.

 

[.]

If you can only counter it by revenge killing, it has no place in that tier.

Why?

If it can be dealt with, it can be dealt with. Latios can be dealt with by the best revenge killing move in the game (Pursuit). It's not like the "X switches out of Y's attempt to revenge kill".

 

[Syaoran]

Because losing a pokemon in the process defeats the purpose.

 

[.]

Because losing a pokemon in the process defeats the purpose.

So every Pokemon without a true counter is uber? Let's get rid of Dragonite and Salamence, why don't we?

 

[Syaoran]

You see, that's only 1 thing. Many reasons are factored when deciding if a pokemon is uber or not. In the case of Latios, 130 Draco Meteor is just too darn powerful. Salamence's Draco Meteor can be handled to an extent, and the SR weakness doesn't help it either. Latios doesn't have quad weaknesses, no SR weakness, and great speed to work with.

You don't necessarily "lose" a pokemon when switching in Salamence (or Dragonite lol). To make steel pokemon more "capable" of taking on Latios with SDef EVs, the entire OU metagame will start resembling the Uber metagame.

 

[.]

You see, that's only 1 thing. Many reasons are factored when deciding if a pokemon is uber or not. In the case of Latios, 130 Draco Meteor is just too darn powerful. Salamence's Draco Meteor can be handled to an extent, and the SR weakness doesn't help it either. Latios doesn't have quad weaknesses, no SR weakness, and great speed to work with.

This I can understand. Latios's Draco Meteor is pretty damn powerful.

You don't necessarily "lose" a pokemon when switching in Salamence (or Dragonite lol). To make steel pokemon more "capable" of taking on Latios with SDef EVs, the entire OU metagame will start resembling the Uber metagame.

Salamence sometimes DOES require sacrificing a Pokemon in order to kill it, but I can understand your point.

 

[Lila]

Salamence sometimes DOES require sacrificing a Pokemon in order to kill it, but I can understand your point.

Any pokemon can require another pokemon being sacrificed to kill it, so the point is moot. The difference is that with Latios, you almost always have to sacrifice a pokemon to kill it. The only times I haven't had to sacrifice a pokemon is when my opponent was being dumb, and even then I found the pokemon to be so strong that even a stupid person could abuse it easily. -_-;

Latios one-shots pretty much any pokemon, even steels with high special defense, and if he doesn't one-shot them he'll get them down to low health and will be able to finish them off the next turn. As said above, Latios doesn't have a SR weakness, nor a double weakness. Also, there aren't priority moves that can easily take him down, like Ice Shard. I can deal with Latias in OU, but Latios? It seems like it's pushing it a little bit, and too many people are saying "oh Latias and Latios are like the same so if one goes down to OU both should". : /

 

[Pokedra]

Latios will not be moved down to OU. Latias was moved down due to the way the metagame works now. It's all about hitting hard and fast and the use of walls have greatly diminished. Latios remains a very potent sweeper in the Uber environment from what I can tell, whereas Latias doesn't have the sheer stats to really compete. Correct me if I'm wrong, I very rarely Uber.

No offense but that's wrong. Latias in Ubers was more popular then Latias or so Smogon says. Latias can function as a tank but in Ubers it took its far better then Latios and could KO something. Most importantly it can actually take a hit or two. According to statistics Latias is used more then double Latios and even Tyranitar and Scizor is used more then Latios. 194 Defense can't cope with the Uber metagame so it will be downgraded.

130 SpAtk is fearsome but it's easily revenge killed. Weavile or Dugtrio can used Pursuit/Sucker Punch repesctively to land a huge hit on him. Even when he's full health Pokemon with Sucker Punch can land a huge hit on him. 305 HP /194 Def is even less bulky then Salamence who has Intimidate to cope with his wose Def and higher HP.

Here's some damage calcs for Latios with 0HP/0 Def/0 SpD
Jolly 252 Atk CB Dugtrio w/ Sucker Punch - 76.41% - 89.70%(Sometimes OHKO w/Stealth Rock)
Adamant 252 Atk LO Toxicroak w/ Sucker Punch - 87.71% - 102.99%(OHKO with Stealth Rock 100%)
Jolly CB 252 Atk Weavile w/ Night Slash - 130.90% - 154.15%(OHKO no matter what)
Timid CS 252 SpAtk Jolteon w/ HP Ice - 56.48% - 66.45%(2HKO no matter what)

Now some for Latias with 0HP/0 Def/0SpD
Jolly 252 Atk CB Dugtrio w/ Sucker Punch - 69.44% - 81.73%(Never OHKO even w/ Stealth Rock)
Adamant 252 Atk LO Toxicroak w/ Sucker Punch - 79.73% - 93.69%(W/ Stealth Rock never OHKO'ed w/ Stealth Rock OHKO is possible)
Timid 252 SpAtk CS Jolteon w/ HP Ice - 48.84% - 57.48%(Sometimes 3HKO or 2HKO)

Latias's extra bulk helps. She can survive Dugtrio and OHKO back with Ice Beam and since these EV spreads are for Choice Specs Latias can easily OHKO Toxicroak and Jolteon will fall to Choice Specs Dragon Pulse in 1-2 hits. Look none of these Pokemon are counter so don't bite my head off but seriously Latios isn't that scary. These Pokemon make good revenge killers against Latios and he can't really beat them as usually he will be damaged when they come in.

And sheer stats? No offense what are Latios's sheer stats? Base 110 Spe? Well Latias has that too. Base 80 Defense? Don't make me laugh. Base 90 Atk? Pah Salamence runs a DD set much better. Base 110 Sp Def? Pretty good but he never invests in it so it sits at a meh 255 SpDef which is pretty nice but not sheer. Base 130 SpAtk is his only sheer stat which is great, no one can deny that.

I'm not saying Latias is better or Latios is better. They are both great Pokemon but I think some people are overestimating Latios. I've faced a few, he wrecks havoc with Draco Meteor but he is beatable and personally I like Latias better.

Why? Maybe I'm crazy but 110SpAtk is good enough for me and I like the fact even without EV's she still has 216 Def/295 SpD which is pretty bulky.

 

[Anti]

No offense but that's wrong. Latias in Ubers was more popular then Latias or so Smogon says. Latias can function as a tank but in Ubers it took its far better then Latios and could KO something. Most importantly it can actually take a hit or two. According to statistics Latias is used more then double Latios and even Tyranitar and Scizor is used more then Latios. 194 Defense can't cope with the Uber metagame so it will be downgraded.

Uber metagame is irrelevant in this discussion.

130 SpAtk is fearsome but it's easily revenge killed. Weavile or Dugtrio can used Pursuit/Sucker Punch repesctively to land a huge hit on him. Even when he's full health Pokemon with Sucker Punch can land a huge hit on him. 305 HP /194 Def is even less bulky then Salamence who has Intimidate to cope with his wose Def and higher HP.

Here's some damage calcs for Latios with 0HP/0 Def/0 SpD
Jolly 252 Atk CB Dugtrio w/ Sucker Punch - 76.41% - 89.70%(Sometimes OHKO w/Stealth Rock)
Adamant 252 Atk LO Toxicroak w/ Sucker Punch - 87.71% - 102.99%(OHKO with Stealth Rock 100%)
Jolly CB 252 Atk Weavile w/ Night Slash - 130.90% - 154.15%(OHKO no matter what)
Timid CS 252 SpAtk Jolteon w/ HP Ice - 56.48% - 66.45%(2HKO no matter what)

Now some for Latias with 0HP/0 Def/0SpD
Jolly 252 Atk CB Dugtrio w/ Sucker Punch - 69.44% - 81.73%(Never OHKO even w/ Stealth Rock)
Adamant 252 Atk LO Toxicroak w/ Sucker Punch - 79.73% - 93.69%(W/ Stealth Rock never OHKO'ed w/ Stealth Rock OHKO is possible)
Timid 252 SpAtk CS Jolteon w/ HP Ice - 48.84% - 57.48%(Sometimes 3HKO or 2HKO)

Latias's extra bulk helps. She can survive Dugtrio and OHKO back with Ice Beam and since these EV spreads are for Choice Specs Latias can easily OHKO Toxicroak and Jolteon will fall to Choice Specs Dragon Pulse in 1-2 hits. Look none of these Pokemon are counter so don't bite my head off but seriously Latios isn't that scary. These Pokemon make good revenge killers against Latios and he can't really beat them as usually he will be damaged when they come in.

How are those calculations even close to relevant? Weavile beating both Lati@s is a foregone conclusion (assuming it's on the revenge lol). I mean, I guess if they're both at half health Jolteon matters, but it will probably just Shadow Ball and 2HKO BOTH of them anyway (not like anybody in their right mind switches Jolteon in to take out the Lati@s whether it's on the revenge or not). And really, if somebody brings in Dugtrio to deal with Latios, it's either using Pursuit or Sucker Punch, the latter much more likely. It can just escape. Toxicroak is even more obvious since it's slower, and bringing that in to revenge is a dead giveaway.

And sheer stats? No offense what are Latios's sheer stats? Base 110 Spe? Well Latias has that too. Base 80 Defense? Don't make me laugh. Base 90 Atk? Pah Salamence runs a DD set much better. Base 110 Sp Def? Pretty good but he never invests in it so it sits at a meh 255 SpDef which is pretty nice but not sheer. Base 130 SpAtk is his only sheer stat which is great, no one can deny that.

I'm not saying Latias is better or Latios is better.[/B] They are both great Pokemon but I think some people are overestimating Latios. I've faced a few, he wrecks havoc with Draco Meteor but he is beatable and personally I like Latias better.

Why? Maybe I'm crazy but 110SpAtk is good enough for me and I like the fact even without EV's she still has 216 Def/295 SpD which is pretty bulky.

Comparing the two isn't getting anybody anywhere, especially since your comparison is pretty much an opinion hardly backed up by anything besides stats? Stats don't prove a thing. But I must say, you call Latias' base 90 bulky but Latios' base 90 a joke. There's hardly a difference. The SDef is a larger difference but both still take special hits well so I don't see any reason to use Specs Latias over Specs Latios when it is almost completely outclassed. They're both suitable for different things since they're so similar. If either of them is better, it's probably Latios since it's way more controversial and powerful for that matter. But seriously, what does comparing the two do exactly? Outline differences we already know?

If you can only counter it by revenge killing, it has no place in that tier.

So you want Dragon and Salamence banned because they can both slap on a Choice Band and 2HKO literally the entire OU tier?

The counter mentality is so early DP I can't even begin to describe it. Countering isn't a bad strategy or anything (quite the opposite, actually), but if you think that should determine tier status completely, I want your Salamence ban thread please. And what happens if a Pokemon has counters? Does that make it OU? Hey guys, I countered Deoxys-A with my special defensive Metagross! Definitely OU !!!!!! By the way, Latios can't do a thing to Blissey besides maybe Trick it. But that gets rid of its Choice Specs and all of a sudden Draco Meteor doesn't hurt so bad. Just saying.

I would totally fish out the new definition of Uber everyone is going by now but I can tell you that "omg no counters" is not one of them. "It has counters" is an equally bad way of going about things. If Blassey gets Sticky Hold (as in it can't be Tricked) and it has its 100% counter, that doesn't make Latios any more Uber or less Uber (well, perhaps by a small amount, but not so much that it would change its tier status).

 

[Pokedra]

Uber metagame is irrelevant in this discussion.

Some people were saying that Latios is common in Ubers when Latias is used more then 3x he is. Even Scizor and Tyranitar get more usage.

How are those calculations even close to relevant? Weavile beating both Lati@s is a foregone conclusion (assuming it's on the revenge lol). I mean, I guess if they're both at half health Jolteon matters, but it will probably just Shadow Ball and 2HKO BOTH of them anyway (not like anybody in their right mind switches Jolteon in to take out the Lati@s whether it's on the revenge or not). And really, if somebody brings in Dugtrio to deal with Latios, it's either using Pursuit or Sucker Punch, the latter much more likely. It can just escape. Toxicroak is even more obvious since it's slower, and bringing that in to revenge is a dead giveaway.

My point is if Latios has to actually deal with one of those Pokemon he will get killed wheres Latias can stand up to them(just barely) and OHKO them usually.

Comparing the two isn't getting anybody anywhere, especially since your comparison is pretty much an opinion hardly backed up by anything besides stats? Stats don't prove a thing. But I must say, you call Latias' base 90 bulky but Latios' base 90 a joke. There's hardly a difference. The SDef is a larger difference but both still take special hits well so I don't see any reason to use Specs Latias over Specs Latios when it is almost completely outclassed. They're both suitable for different things since they're so similar. If either of them is better, it's probably Latios since it's way more controversial and powerful for that matter. But seriously, what does comparing the two do exactly? Outline differences we already know?

It is nearly always outclasseed when using Specs but Latias has less trouble dealing with physical hits as she doesn't usually get OHKO'ed by a non-STAB super-effective attack like Pursuit or Sucker Punch. 110SpAtk is still fearsome you can't deny that. Also 130 doesn't totally outclass 110.

 

[The Hero Without a Name]

Really? Latios can go Timid, and yet he still gets 359 SpA, 9 points higher than Modest Latias. (Thanks Vance!)

 

[.]

I agree with Togekiss, Latios outclasses Latias and Salamence as Specs users, although Salamence does have Fire Blast, it gets outclassed in every other way. Simply put, Latios can do one of the following (all are assuming Modest Salamence):

Go Modest, have 394 SpA (591 after Specs), have 66 more Special Attack than Salamence, and be 20 points faster.

Go Timid, have 359 SpA (539 after Specs), have 14 more Special Attack than Salamence, and be 51 points faster.

Even Latias gets outclassed. Latias commonly runs Timid, meaning Latios can run the same exact nature, be the same Speed, but have only 478 Special Attack after Specs. Latios will have 539 Special Attack, a very, very noticable difference.

Please stop reccomending Latias for Specs just because "she's bulkier". She's not THAT much bulkier on the physical side (80 / 90 isn't that much better than 80 / 80). On the special side, they're both very good at taking hits, but the point of a Specs set is to hit and destroy, not necessarily tank.

 

[Anti]

Vance pretty much said it all but I'll throw in my two cents as well =/

Some people were saying that Latios is common in Ubers when Latias is used more then 3x he is. Even Scizor and Tyranitar get more usage.

Yeah I know, I'm saying that nobody cares because it's not relevant. Period.

My point is if Latios has to actually deal with one of those Pokemon he will get killed wheres Latias can stand up to them(just barely) and OHKO them usually.

Assuming it's at full health, which is a completely unrealistic view given how common SS and SR are (the latter being on virtually every team). All of that crap is theorymon and you know it (and if you don't, this isn't the discussion for you). We all know Latias is bulkier, we just don't care. If you really value "taking hits better" from a few select threats in the OU metagame over a huge power difference on an offensive Pokemon, I don't know what to tell you.

It is nearly always outclasseed when using Specs but Latias has less trouble dealing with physical hits as she doesn't usually get OHKO'ed by a non-STAB super-effective attack like Pursuit or Sucker Punch. 110SpAtk is still fearsome you can't deny that. Also 130 doesn't totally outclass 110.

Um, 130 does completely outclass 110, because it's always higher? I mean it's really obvious. Yeah both OHKO Hippotatas, but the difference against stuff that could potentially take a few hits is HUGE. If you prefer Latias that's fine, but don't even think about trying to argue it's better because "110 is still pretty good". 130 is still way better and there is no way to get around that. Pursuit is crushing both of them regardless and so is Sucker Punch (but that's only if you can't predict since it's insanely predictable).

All this thread has been is a bunch of useless arguments when we still haven't even scratched the surface of what effect they're actually going to have. This is not a Latios vs. Latias debate and it's never going to be, and any post that focuses on that will be infracted right away for off-topic posting. I've been pretty loose about what can be discussed in this thread but this is pretty ridiculous. Let's discuss relevant things, like Latias' or Latios' impact on the metagame and how patterns are shifted (like your typical Steels + Dragons teams). It doesn't have to be that necessarily but something with some kind of relevance to the OU metagame and/or their tier status. If this withers away any further I'm closing this thread.