Lati@s

[Dark Azelf]

Here is another topic i would like to bring to light. The same with Garchomp, i would possibly like to see this tested on how it would be in OU WITHOUT SOUL DEW.

Without that item, i think it would be viable in OU and would see use without "breaking" or over centralizing anything.

Firstly im going to give credit to Maniaclyrasist from smogon, for making the post ive quoted below and i feel it best describes the details of it.

If you want to view the original post on Smogon, the link is in my signature. (or will be appearing there shortly)





SO BEFORE YOU POST READ ALL OF THE FOLLOWING FRIKKIN QUOTE, IM SAYING THIS NOW BECAUSE I GOT A LOAD OF BS POSTS ON THE GARCHOMP THREAD WHERE PEOPLE DIDNT READ, SO I WARN YOU NOW, I WILL BE MAJORLY PISSED IF YOU DONT, THANKS =)



1.

This is the follow-up thread to the Eon Tournament which was hosted to determine the viability of Lati@s in the OU metagame

First let me start with some information on both pokemon.

Latias and Latios are both base 600 Dragon/Psychic types which posses the ability Levitate which gives them an immunity to Ground moves, Spikes and Toxic Spikes.
They both also share a similar movepool albeit slight differences, their Base stats are listed as following:

Latias
Hp: 80
Attack: 80
Defense: 90
Special Attack: 110
Special Defense: 130
Speed: 110

Latios
Hp: 80
Attack: 90
Defense: 80
Special Attack: 130
Special Defense: 110
Speed: 110

Unique moves for each are also listed below

Latias: Wish, Mist Ball, Charm
Latios: Dragon Dance, Luster Purge, and Memento

Weaknesses: Bug, Ice, Dragon, Ghost, Dark< Common

Now the main question is, are these pokemon OU material? Well that is what the Eon Tournament was hosted to determine.

Just to give you a brief idea of the tourney rules.

The tournament was comprised of 64 players and the rules allowed the players to use Latias and Latios on their teams if they so wished.

At first glance, we see Latios' amazing stats and movepool and almost immediately think "why are we even considering this pokemon for OU play", Well this isn't exactly the case, the Lati's movepool is good but yet limited in the sense that you know it will almost always be Special based except for the Dragon Dance set which will be discussed a bit later.

Latios has few special sets, which can be used effectively in the OU metagame, they consist of the Calm Minder, the Choice Scarfer and the infamous Choice Specs set.
All of them have their own counters as with any pokemon that can run multiple sets although it is worth mentioning that any special set lacking the weak Hp Fire will have problems with steel types.

I will talk in detail about each of these sets and their effects on the D/P OU metagame.

Calm Mind

Firstly the Calm Mind set

Latios (M) @ Leftovers/Life Orb
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Spd / 252 SAtk
Timid
- Calm Mind
- Recover
- Ice Beam/Dragon Pulse/Psychic
- Thunderbolt/Grass Knot/Hp Fire/Refresh/Safeguard

This set has a lot of potential to do good damage in OU especially when its threats have been taken out.


The set is indeed devastating at times but doesn't differ much from any other recovering Calm Minder aside from the type coverage it has. It still has pretty much the same counters and although it is a fast pokemon maxing at 350 speed it still has to fear the ever-common Choice Scarf user. Latios' movepool also presents another issue, Calm Mind and Recover are both staple moves for this set which leaves only room for two attacking moves and I'm pretty sure we all know you cant cover every pokemon in 2 moves.

If Latios lacks Grass Knot Tyranitar walks all over it, if it lacks Hp Fire it has problems with steel types and then without Refresh it fears status moves which would pretty much spell the end of it. Face it people Latios cannot have every move at once and it's pretty clear every set of combinations can be countered.


Choice Specs


Latios (M) @ Choice Specs
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Spd / 252 SAtk
Timid/Modest
- Draco Meteor
- Thunderbolt/ Psychic/Dragon Pulse
- Ice Beam/ Shadow Ball
- Grass Knot/Hp Fire

The infamous Choice Specs set, capable of dealing quite a lot of damage to any team and quoted as a better Specs Mence. This is true in some aspects but there is one area where it does fall down in comparison.

It's lack of a reliable Fire attack means it has problems with steels and in retrospect has even more counters than Specs Mence because of it.
It was also argued that Specs Latios' damage output is way higher than the OU metagame is capable of handling but this clearly isn't the case. As we can see it's not much higher than some of the pokemon that currently reside in OU.

Specs Latios, who will arguably most of the time choose Timid as its nature are hardly out damaging Modest Specs Mence, which is the most common form, and if Latios so chooses to go Modest then its damage output is going to be the same as Modest Heatran or for laughs the much less seen Modest Glaceon who is actually allowed in UU.
Going Modest also has its obvious drawbacks, of not out speeding pokemon that could pose threats to it like the common Gengar and Garchomp.

Specs Latios would indeed be a major threat if let into OU, however it is definitely not uncounterable and just like any other pokemon has its pros and cons.




Choice Scarf


Latios (M) @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Spd / 252 SAtk
Modest
- Draco Meteor
- Thunderbolt/ Psychic/Dragon Pulse
- Ice Beam/ Shadow Ball
- Grass Knot/Hp Fire

Same moves as the last set with quite a different purpose. With this set Latias loses the raw power from its Choice Specs set for Revenge killing properties with Choice Scarf.
This set is probably the least of ones worries as it is walled even easier than any of its previously mentioned sets.

Although it makes for a pretty good revenge killer overall it's still a pretty generic Choice Scarf pokemon. It does have the luxury of out speeding almost everything in the game due to its base 110 speed but I don't see this set outclassing other common Scarfed Special attackers pokemon like Gengar who although doesn't hit as hard has moves like Hypnosis and Destiny Bond to make up for it. And Heatran who already out speeds most pokemon, has the same damage output with Overheat, has arguably better resists and Sandstorm immunity.



This pretty much summarizes the Special sets; so I will now go on to mention the Dragon Dance set. Firstly let me start off by saying the set is quite mediocre as Salamence and Dragonite do it way better. The Dragon Dance set does have a few things going for it in comparison to previous sets.
Its surprise factor and the fact that it can seriously damage normal switch-ins to its Special variants is pretty valuable coupled with the fact that it's one of the few Dragon Dancing Dragons that do not have a 4x weakness to Ice. Don't let these pros fool you into thinking that this set may be better than the Special variants, but it does have its merits.

The set and some calcs for the set are listed below.


Dragon Dance

Latios (M) @ Life Orb
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 6 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Dragon Claw
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
- Recover

Adamant, 306 Atk Latios using a Life Orb, Dragon Danced Earthquake on a 342HP/256Def (4EVs/min) Tyranitar: 98-115%
Adamant, 306 Atk Latios using a Life Orb, Dragon Danced Earthquake on a 404HP/256Def (4EVs/min) Tyranitar: 82-98%
Adamant, 306 Atk Latios using a Life Orb, Dragon Danced Dragon Claw on a 282HP/176Def (4EVs/min) Weavile: 103-121%
Adamant, 306 Atk Latios using a Life Orb, Dragon Danced Dragon Claw on a 688HP/130Def (fair/min) Blissey: 57-67%
Adamant, 306 Atk Latios using a Life Orb, Dragon Danced Earthquake on a 364HP/336Def (max/min) Registeel: 70-83%
Adamant, 306 Atk Latios using a Life Orb, Dragon Danced Earthquake on a 364HP/299Def (max/12EVs) CB Metagross: 78-93%
Adamant, 306 Atk Latios using a Life Orb, Dragon Danced Dragon Claw on a 327HP/186Def (fair/min) Scarf cross: 84-99%
Adamant, 306 Atk Latios using a Life Orb, Dragon Danced Dragon Claw on a 357HP/226Def (min/min) Scarf chomp: 127-151%

Yes the damage output is nice against Latios' usual counters but when the opponent becomes aware of your set then this moveset can be pretty much called dead weight as it is walled and beaten by the usual Garchomp, Salamence and Dragonite counters which everyone is forced to carry due to how common each of the 3 previously mentioned pokemon are.

No logs of the Dragon Dancer's usage were used as for the few times it was actually used in the tournament it died within 1-2 subsequent turns.


Some people mentioned that Lati@s is probably going to a very overcentralising force in OU but after comparing it to the top 15 pokemon on the Shoddy List there are definitely some problems with that assumption

Here is the list for February and I have mentioned how Lati@s stands up against each of these pokemon.


1: Garchomp

Lati@s is faster but we all know that it can't switch in and there is always the ever present fear of Garchomp being Scarfed if Lati@s is in first.

2: Gengar

Gengar and Lati@s tie in base speed and a Timid Gengar is capable of dealing 74% minimum to the standard 6 hp 0 Sdef Latios and 53% minimum to a 252 hp 0 Sdef Latias, both capable 2HKOs and this is without any boosting items. Lati@s still then has to worry about moves like Hypnosis and Destiny Bond, which are both capable to taking out Lati@s for possibly the entire game.

3: Blissey

Blissey is pretty much a solid counter to most Lati@s sets and should have no problem crippling the ones it cannot kill directly.

4: Gyarados

Gyarados of course cannot switch into the Lati twins but the Lati twins for the most part cannot switch into a Gyarados fearing a Dragon Danced Ice Fang, which can OHKO, and even if Gyarados doesn't have Ice Fang then Stone Edge already deals a hefty amount of damage being an easy 2HKO.

5: Tyranitar

Bane of most Latias sets being able to Pursuit or Crunch it into oblivion and taking very little from any move barring Hp Fighting, Grass Knot and Draco Meteor which do not OHKO regardless. Can probably be listed as a pretty safe counter.

6: Lucario

Not one of Lati@s greatest 1 vs. 1 matches due to Lucario's Steel typing and its ability to do massive damage with Life Orbed Crunch, Extremespeed or a Choice Specs Dark Pulse. Lati@s does get some merit for being able to switch into its Stab attack on the Physical set and any attack besides Dark Pulse or Shadow Ball on the Choice Specs set.

7: Heatran

Heatran makes a decent switch-in to any Latias lacking Surf or Earthquake. It's Modest Specs Dragon Pulse can OHKO and a Scarfed Dragon Pulse will 2HKO even from Timid barring a fairly defensive spread on the Lati twins, even then they still have to fear Explosion which is a definite OHKO. All is not bad however as they wall any other move on its set and the Calm Mind variants can possibly set up on these same moves that they resist.

8: Bronzong

Bronzong walls the Latis completely and can do massive Damage with Gyro Ball although this can be recovered off due to its low PP. Bronzong still gets Hypnosis and Explosion as ways of dealing with the dragons though.

9: Salamence

Pretty much the same case as with Garchomp, neither can switch into the other without risk.

10: Metagross

Metagross take resists Lati@s's STABed moves and poses an immediate threat to them with either Meteor Mash or Pursuit. Which can OHKO depending on the Lati@'s EV spreads and with the help of a Choice Band or Life Orb.

11: Infernape

Lati@s walls any set without U-turn, which can hardly be considered common and they are also faster. Pretty good match up for the Eon twins here.

12: Weavile

Capable of OHKOing a switching Latias with STAB CB Pursuit of OHKOing them if they stay in with a STABed CB Ice Punch, it's also faster than the Lati twins which doesn't do them any good.

13: Swampert

This is one instance where Lati@s will win the majority of the time as long as Swampert doesn't carry Ice Punch, which can 2hko. It fears an OHKO from Specs Draco Meteor however, so it's something that the Lati's have no trouble dealing with as they resist pretty much every move it has to throw at them.


14: Skarmory

Another match up favoring the Eon twins who can 2HKO with Specs Draco Meteor despite the resistance and OHKO with moves like Thunderbolt. Skarmory's Brave Bird also 3hkoes them, so not much in favour of the big metal bird.

15: Gliscor

Ice Fang the best move Gliscor can muster against the Lati twins is a mere 3HKO which doesn't say a lot for it in terms of stopping the Dragons which can easily OHKO it or possibly even set up on it depending on it's set.

Ok so with all this information pointing towards the unbanning of the Eon twins I really think it's about time we take some stance regarding their tier status and decide if these pokemon will really be allowed into the OU tier.

I feel that sums up most of my feelings about them.

Now, all the above is without soul dew. If this item is banned when used on Lati@s, do you think the Lati twins would be viable pokemon in the ou tier ?


If i get an affirmative from the majority of S&M/ Competetive battlers. Id like not to go through the same process as Chomp, by that, i mean by them actually being tested in an tournaments matches AND OU standard matches. Do you think this would be a good idea ?


So yeah, opinions.

 

[Random Guy]

You make a good point. I've always felt that without Soul Dew, the Lati twins do get pretty beaten in ubers, sort of. I wouldn't mind seeing that Lati twins in the OU tier of battling since what you've mentioned before really does give good reasons. Common weaknesses, wallable and common counters all say for me that the Latis should be moved down.

 

[AluminumKnight]

Latios has an iffy attack stat. Could you run a mixed set with effectiveness?

 

[ABYAY]

I think the Lati twins are in Uber for one particular reason; Soul Dew. An instant sp.atk and sp.def boost is a huge addition without setup; basically it's a Calm Mind without a move being used and without having to waste a turn setting it up.

As long as Soul Dew is never used, then Lati@s can potentially be OU material. Let us look at why.

They are each 600 base stat pokemon, also like Dragonite, Salamence, Metagross, Garchomp, Tyranitar, Jirachi, Celebi, and a few others. Also, its movepool isn't THAT amazing. The only things very useful are highly expected. The 3rd thing is weaknesses: Bug, Ice, Dragon, Dark, and Ghost. 4 of its 5 weaknesses are commonly seen. Ice is by pretty much everything that can utilize it, Dragon is by the OU dragons and a few other specific pokemon, Dark is by the likes of Weavile and Tyranitar, and Ghost is by all 4 of the OU ghosts. This means the the twins have some rough times in OU.

The Lati twins, however, have some neat tricks. Have you ever seen usual sweepers pop a Wish out of nowhere and heal teammate? How about a sweeper Psycho Shifting its Burn off onto an opposing sweeper? These are just two absurd options, but the Lati twins assist with supporting as well.

From the looks, we can try them in OU for a month, just like how we moved Garchomp to Ubers for some time.

 

[Anti]

I remember reading through an old Smogon thread about this when some idiot was saying this should happen in Advance. either way, there was an interesting comparison made to Raikou, who even in this generation can be a pretty nasty sweeper. It was amazing to me how both twins totally blew Raikou out of the water...like Regice vs. Mamoswine in special walling bad. When you think about it, it really is a way better Raikou...just throwing that out there.

I'm going to withhold my judgment, but I hope shoddy doesn't get any bright ideas about just shooting this into the metagame and "testing" it.

I will say that the last part of that post (about the top 15) is only looking at one side of the picture. The poster mentions how neither of them can switch into a decent amount of those threats, but I find it funny that those threats have an even harder time switching into the twins. The list acts like we're trying to counter the pokemon when, when in fact we are trying to counter the twins. That's my problem with that section.

EDIT: about the mixed set, I look forward to running a better MixMence with Latios if it is tested :) It also has potential to be awesome on stall teams...or Latias does at least.

 

[Dark Azelf]

Mixed Draco meteor/Dragon Claw/Hidden power Fire/ Earthquake

Hits everything in the game for at least neutral. EQ is basically for heatran, either way its getting walled by Cress and Zong, who actually takes pitiful damage from HP Fire.



Also Anti, i use Wish/Protect/Dragon pulse/Grass Knot or Thunderbolt on Latias, it may interest you.

 

[luke]

So, I'm on the fence. I'd love for there to be a test here on PC so I can use my awesome IV'd Latias I've been dying to use.

 

[Dark Azelf]

So, I'm on the fence. I'd love for there to be a test here on PC so I can use my awesome IV'd Latias I've been dying to use.

Somebody can Organize a tourney possibly ? Where players are allowed to use Lati@s.


Latios suffers from moveset syndrome imo, it gets walled by something or other no matter which moves you run. e.g Without Grass Knot T-Tar kills you and without Thunderbolt, gyarados and what not really laughs.


As for Latias, i can see it as a nice countering utility, to infernape, possible Gyarados etc. Wish support is sexy too.

 

[Anti]

I just really hate how this absolutely focuses on everything negative and pretty much ignores its useful resistances, good movepool, and all its other positive traits.

Really though, I can't wait to see them in OUs if they test them since they counter Gyarados and Infernape like crazy and can break a lot of walls. Sounds like fun :)

I'm not necessarily against it yet since I haven't given it enough thought, but the argument here is much weaker than the one with Garchomp IMO.

EDIT: It can even Wish and provide a fighting/ground/water/electric/fire resist (or in ground's case, an immunity). I look forward to testing this thing :)

EDIT 2: You know this looks like fun:

Latias (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP/56 Def/200 SDef
Calm nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Psychic / Dragon Pulse
- Reflect
- Toxic
- Wish / Roost

Laughs off Pursuit attempts with Reflect. Wish can be passed and Toxic lays the hammer down on a lot of things, especially dragons and Pursuiters who want to rain on your parade. It's basically Cresselia with more weaknesses and resistances, but better attacking abilities and recovery (and lower Defense, which is quite important).

 

[Sora_8920]

I just really hate how this absolutely focuses on everything negative and pretty much ignores its useful resistances, good movepool, and all its other positive traits.

Really though, I can't wait to see them in OUs if they test them since they counter Gyarados and Infernape like crazy and can break a lot of walls. Sounds like fun :)

I'm not necessarily against it yet since I haven't given it enough thought, but the argument here is much weaker than the one with Garchomp IMO.

EDIT: It can even Wish and provide a fighting/ground/water/electric/fire resist (or in ground's case, an immunity). I look forward to testing this thing :)

EDIT 2: You know this looks like fun:

Latias (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP/56 Def/200 SDef
Calm nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Psychic / Dragon Pulse
- Reflect
- Toxic
- Wish / Roost

Laughs off Pursuit attempts with Reflect. Wish can be passed and Toxic lays the hammer down on a lot of things, especially dragons and Pursuiters who want to rain on your parade. It's basically Cresselia with more weaknesses and resistances, but better attacking abilities and recovery (and lower Defense, which is quite important).

You know WishBliss even had to defend itself with Wish, so I'm guessing this is the same way. I will test Roost, though, to see how it does.

 

[Dark Azelf]

I just really hate how this absolutely focuses on everything negative and pretty much ignores its useful resistances, good movepool, and all its other positive traits.

Really though, I can't wait to see them in OUs if they test them since they counter Gyarados and Infernape like crazy and can break a lot of walls. Sounds like fun :)

I'm not necessarily against it yet since I haven't given it enough thought, but the argument here is much weaker than the one with Garchomp IMO.

EDIT: It can even Wish and provide a fighting/ground/water/electric/fire resist (or in ground's case, an immunity). I look forward to testing this thing :)

EDIT 2: You know this looks like fun:

Latias (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP/56 Def/200 SDef
Calm nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Psychic / Dragon Pulse
- Reflect
- Toxic
- Wish / Roost

Laughs off Pursuit attempts with Reflect. Wish can be passed and Toxic lays the hammer down on a lot of things, especially dragons and Pursuiters who want to rain on your parade. It's basically Cresselia with more weaknesses and resistances, but better attacking abilities and recovery (and lower Defense, which is quite important).

Shame its epically walled by steels XP


But yeah, it does look fun to use, *sigh* why cant it get a decent fire move =[

 

[boo836]

The problem is, it's almost impossible to tell if lati@s is holding sowl dew. That's why it's in uber. To fix this, we would have to have proof, like lefties or life orb then.

 

[ABYAY]

I have a question: Wouldn't it seem more safe to use Recover > Roost? I don't know if Roost negates Levitate or not, so that's why I ask that.

 

[Dark Azelf]

The problem is, it's almost impossible to tell if lati@s is holding sowl dew. That's why it's in uber. To fix this, we would have to have proof, like lefties or life orb then.

It should be obvious really, i think you may be able to tell with the amount of damage it takes and deals. Also damage calcs are our friends to help with that, so anyone found to be using Soul Dew will be automatically Dq'd.


Spec set should be obvious, it has to switch out after getting walled, due to being stuck into one attack.


Lefties and Life Orb again that should be obvious.



@ABYAY, no Roost does not negate Levitate ;)

 

[Cloud_85]

Yup, He's walled really easy by any Steel poke... Imo Dragon Pulse will be better on your set, but He's an awesome pokemon ...

 

[ABYAY]

Alright, thanks Azelf; I personally think it should though...I mean, how does it Roost without landing, I dunno. Still, Recover/Roost, use it whether you like heart scales or TMs more.

I know that the existance of the Lati twins will cause some increase in Dark moves, so expect more Weavile and Tyranitar!

 

[Dark Azelf]

Alright, thanks Azelf; I personally think it should though...I mean, how does it Roost without landing, I dunno. Still, Recover/Roost, use it whether you like heart scales or TMs more.

I know that the existance of the Lati twins will cause some increase in Dark moves, so expect more Weavile and Tyranitar!

Dont forget, how common its other weaks are, Dark, Ghost, Ice, Dragon << Its almost guaranteed youll find one of those on a team.


And bug, but thats pretty much Yanmega and Heracross really XP

 

[Xairmo]

In my opinion, without Soul Dew Lati@s will be a completely viable OU pokemon. If you check to see what its stats max out to, they look like most common OU Special Sweeper/Walls. The only thing that made them Uber was the outrageous boost given by Soul Dew. And its not unbeatable either, there are quite a few reliable and common counters.

 

[Divine~Deoxys]

You have got an awesome point, i have tried to post a thread questioning this today as wel, but it hasn't come through, and i think that they shouldn't be uber as they are defeatable by quite a lot of pokes, not just ubers, and therefore should be OU pokes.

 

[Anti]

In my opinion, without Soul Dew Lati@s will be a completely viable OU pokemon. If you check to see what its stats max out to, they look like most common OU Special Sweeper/Walls. The only thing that made them Uber was the outrageous boost given by Soul Dew. And its not unbeatable either, there are quite a few reliable and common counters.

You have got an awesome point, i have tried to post a thread questioning this today as wel, but it hasn't come through, and i think that they shouldn't be uber as they are defeatable by quite a lot of pokes, not just ubers, and therefore should be OU pokes.

I'd really like to hear all of those counters.

I quite honestly think people are jumping on the bandwagon WAY too quickly.

Steels are their biggest problem, but I think we are again jumping to conclusions too quickly. Let's look at common steels now:

Jirachi

Physical Jirachi gets totally owned by Latios, and it can only U-Turn which can be recovered off anyways. Special Jirachi can't hurt Latiod while it can CM up and start drowning it with HP Fire. Jirachi is usually EVed to take physical hits, so I don't think it's going to be a good switch into Latios.

Forretress

Obviously HP fire is going to assassinate Forretress.

Skarmory

Same as Forretress lol

Bronzong

I'm not as convinced this walls Latios as you guys are. HP Fire will do a decent amount of damage and Sub can block Hypnosis and give a free turn to CM while it uses Gyro Ball to break the sub. Speaking of which, Gyro Ball has horrible PP and can be easily stalled out of PP (as Zong can't hurt it any other way, lol Earthquake). It can just recover off damage and stall it while attacking with HP fire when possible. Resttalk Zong could be more problematic, but with only a 1/3 chance of gyro Ball being used, it's anything but reliable while Latios can fight back with HP fire.

It obviously is going to have trouble with Bronzong, but I think it could very well be beaten. you must not forget the possibility of Reflect as well.

Metagross

Metagross will probably survive two HP Fire attacks, but Reflect can again cause trouble and any damage from Spikes is going to put Metagross in an extremely difficult position to counter Latios. Pursuit is just a weaker Meteor Mash if it doesn't switch, and with Reflect, that could very well happen. Really, Gross has trouble surviving the attacks, which worries me a bit.

Magnezone

Obviously, Latios is going to beat this.

Heatran

By far the best steel to counter Latios, since only EQ threatens it and you won't see that much.

_______________

I would say Gross and Zong could be considered counters, but they would have a lot of trouble. Specs variants of Latios best both really.

Considering I typed this up on the fly, there are probably a lot of errors, but steels don't shut them down by any means. We must not forget that besides Metagross and heatran, no steel poses a huge attacking threat, and Latias and Latios are fairly bulky (especially Latias obviously).

The diversity of its movepool means that countering it with about anything but Heatran is especially risky. Pursuiters are at risk of taking Choice specs attacks BTW.

Not a huge fan of this idea, since it really doesn't have a ton of counters...basically Heatran and Snorlax, and perhaps Regice.

Think about it...Blissey in standard play doesn't play with Psych Up and whatever Uber Blissey uses. Standard Seismic Toss/Ice Beam/Aromatherapy/Softboiled blissey (as well as Wish Bliss) are gong to get destroyed by a CM Latios or even Latias. Even Regice will strguggle to Ice Beam it after a few CMs, and Psych Up Regice is very very rare.

Snorlax with Crunch seems reliable enough though, and Heatran will, as we mentioned, wall all non-EQ sets.

I'm not saying there aren't other counters, but I'd certainly like to hear of them.

That argument just isn't convincing at all really. I'm have yet to make up my mind, but I know what way I'm leaning right now.