Minority representation in media

[Juno]

So I really wanted to respond to some points in this thread but I didn't want to derail it from its original purpose, and as the nature of the replies changed it seemed more suited for this forum, so the discussion can continue in more depth here. As always, remember to be respectful even if you may not agree with some opinions!

The "parent" post that spawned the discussion:

This might as well be a fad, but I'm getting real tired of people crying out "representation" in everything.

And I'm more tired of having it catered to. Way to stick to your guns and not be artistic or have any conviction, that you feel you have to shoehorn in couplings or characters to 'appeal' to a demographic.
It's sickening and only strengthening the notion of segregation.

And it's one of the worst aspects of Hollywood right now. As if Asians (Chinese to be specific) won't like a film because there aren't Asians in it.


How about just make a good story without worry about any of that crap and let people like it for that? By the same reasoning, even a bad movie is good so long as you're 'represented'. Give. Me. A. Break.

It's a 'fad' I'd love to see eliminated.
When did this BS mentality even start?

Hope you don't mind me quoting, and feel free to elaborate your points if you'd like because I'm still a little fuzzy on what you consider tokenism and what you consider "good" minority representation - I think that's the root of the discussion since in your other replies you don't seem to disagree that there should be more minority representation, just that representations of minority characters shouldn't be tokens, which is fair.
--
and the response I wanted to make to this:

It only propagates the notion of segregation. That "well black people can't like something if it has no blacks in it" and the like. It's nonsense that needs to be done away with.

I don't think that's the issue people are battling when they make the decision to put more people of colour into movies, maybe Hollywood is just opening their eyes to the reality that aside from some European countries, any given setting in the world is not 99% white and movies shouldn't be, either.

Chinese people exist outside of being Kung Fu masters and immigrants with emotional tales to tell, and I think representing them as "normal people" who just happen to be of colour is not necessarily shoehorning or tokenism, it's just... depicting us as real people too. In fact, I don't want every show or movie where there are Chinese people in it to have "Chineseness" be the focal point, just as I'm sure gays don't want to be seen as just a flamboyant stereotype or whatever. Giving people of colour roles that could otherwise go to a white person is not segregation or lip service.

That said, I can definitely understand not wanting details shoehorned where it's not necessary, example being something like Dumbledore - JK Rowling added the detail that he's gay after the fact despite there being no evidence actually within the books or films themselves that suggest he's gay, to me it seemed like she just kind of added a "btw he's gay" to be more LGBTQ+ friendly, and that I think is kind of lame. But I don't think that argument can be applied to people of colour, especially in films, unless Disney suddenly comes out with a statement like "btw Han Solo is black and future portrayals of him will reflect this" or something

 

[Sirfetch’d]

I am glad you made this thread because I think this needed to be discussed much more in depth than we could allow in off-topic.

Anyways, Enpatst's piping hot take on this matter is god awful. He is of the mindset that cishet white people are the only "normal" group of people and that every other group should feel ashamed and have to answer for every time they are represented in a movie. In his eyes the 99% of media they have been represented in over the years just isn't enough and they should be filling the spots that the LGBT and PoC communities have to fight to get. It's so saddening that this day in age we can't have one splash of color or any other form of representation without someone crying out "lip service" or "catering to the minorities".

I think we need more representation for minorities in media. I am glad we are moving to a time where it is becoming more and more common in big movies like Black Panther and Love Simon, but we can still do better. We need more movies where PoC are represented more fairly, we need more movies that focus on trans people, we need more movies that focus on other sexualities than just straight people or white gays. It is very important for every single group of people to have their spot in the media. Whether these characters are the lead role or supporting cast they exist and damn sure deserve to be represented alongside your predominately straight white cast. If you have a problem with it don't watch.

 

[Hikamaru]

Good that this thread was made, because while I'm not completely against minorities, I am not happy with the way they're being handled in entertainment right now. Most pop culture these days seems to shove a character from either a Person of Colour background (black, Asian and Hispanic being the most notable ones) or an LGBTQ background, mostly transgender or in a gay/lesbian relationship.

While films like Black Panther with its African-American dominated cast or Love, Simon with its strong LGBTQ message, every big company feels they can tack on a PoC or LGBTQ representative just to make a quick buck, when in reality it's causing the opposite effect with fans being heavily turned off. It's even worse when they change an existing character to be a different skin colour (example being April O'Neil in the upcoming TMNT reboot Rise Of The Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles), or fitting an LGBTQ identity (Lando Calrissian in Solo: A Star Wars Story) because it shows how lazy the writing team are, and that they think they can change an iconic character and get away with it.

I also feel that any PoC or LGBTQ characters need to have their race and sexual identity be portrayed as a natural part of their character, and not so heavily focused on. That's why I have so many problems with a lot of PoC and LGBTQ characters in the current media, in that their race and sexual identity is treated as their only character trait, leaving them with pretty much no personality. It also doesn't help that the marketing plays up that blatant focus even more.

Even stuff like appointing a PoC or LGBTQ person in an important job is treated by these SJW losers as something historic or a win for their movements, and they make a big brag out of it, especially if it's a woman.

I do feel minorities can be done, but they need to be handled in a way that doesn't interfere with a show or movie franchise's legacy and lore, and doesn't come off as tokenism. That is something that big film companies really need to understand.

 

[Enpatsu Shakugan]

Are my posts going to be deleted again for no reason here too if I join in?

Understandably makes investing into a debate a little difficult after seeing that.

 

[Sirfetch’d]

Are my posts going to be deleted again for no reason here too if I join in?

Understandably makes investing into a debate a little difficult after seeing that.

Your post was deleted in the off topic one because it was starting to stray from the original thread topic a bit too much and the thread had to be put back on track. Here you are free to debate at will as long as you remain civil.

 

[Enpatsu Shakugan]

My problem is, mostly, in regards to this a very hardcore mentality of "Us vs Them" and I cannot fathom why this is a thing when, I thought, the notion here was for equality.

It's why, even though I try to not be confrontational or even rude, some people still dogpile, attack, or call me out on them.

Rather than seeing an opposing viewpoint, as extreme or subtle as it may be, it doesn't matter; it's, again, the "YOU'RE EITHER FULLY WITH US OR AGAINST. PERIOD" mentality.

Cherrim's post to me was especially telling, in that she essentially said "Boy the 99% sure get uppity when they drop to 98%", what I feel was wholly missing the point to my argument and again, turning this into a struggle of You vs Us.


"Representation" to me is not shoving in 'minorities' simply to make them feel good or make a statement. To me, it should be an openness and mentality to share ANY kind of story possible without fear of prosecution.

You want to tell the coming out gay story of the century? Go for it. You want to tell the sacrifice and death of Jesus Christ, more power to you.
You want to tell the story of Donald Trump, in this day and age? You're allowed to. Anything.

You write a fantasy story where a character is gay, because it not only adds to the narrative and the characterization, yes, that is a fine character.
I've actually written stories with gay characters, that I made that way simply due to the fact that it was a parody, first, and those characters were notorious among fan shipping AS gay, but it also gave them huge arcs in the story.
So it worked for both the comedic aspect of a parody and from a story and character level.

Represent anyone you feel fit without fear.

What I dislike, and why I brought it up is doing it simply to fulfill an agenda. It doesn't matter if it's "your side" or not; it's shallow, predictable and the easiest cop out; letting outside influences interfere in writing is THE cardinal sin of the art, as far as I'm concerned.

I also am a firm believer you don't need to cater to your audience with representation. If the story is something good and they care about the characters, anyone can like anything. You don't have to be gay to like a gay character, you don't have to black to only like a 'black' film, etc.
And most importantly, you never have to LIKE a gay character or anything like that simply because you are gay or whatever else.
That is what these cheap ploys are targeted at in particular. Don't fall for it.

Surely you remember the Sony's Ghostbusters debacle, yes? Best example of that.
They spun the truth to make it seem anti-woman, rather than the fact most fans just hated the piss poor comedy, not the fact it starred women.
And ironically, the whole reason they opted for the strategy of the movie itself was TO fill a feminist agenda and make it very anti-men; yet they call out the fans for the opposite. What irony.
And it worked. People actually defended an unfunny, shallow comedy simply due to the fact they saw it as "female empowerment"; I've never been so embarrassed to be on this planet.

Anyway, I hate it when it's shallow and an agenda to pushed; regardless of WHOSE agenda it is. I don't view this as an Me vs You mentality; and I wish more people would realize that.

Why anyone thinks such shallow representations of themselves, by faceless corporations no less, is a good thing, I'll never know.
Why would you want to be a statistic and not an identity?

 

[Lipstick Vogue]

When did this place become such a hotbed for the alt right????

Anyone have any thoughts on the phrase 'people of colour'? I can't help but feel that would bug the hell out of me if I were black. I mean, it's better than 'coloured' but why not just call somebody black, hispanic or asian?

 

[Disturbed]

I don't really have too much I want to add to the discussion, but I wanted to highlight the following point:

I also feel that any PoC or LGBTQ characters need to have their race and sexual identity be portrayed as a natural part of their character, and not so heavily focused on. That's why I have so many problems with a lot of PoC and LGBTQ characters in the current media, in that their race and sexual identity is treated as their only character trait, leaving them with pretty much no personality. It also doesn't help that the marketing plays up that blatant focus even more.

I agree with this 100%. I can understand making a big deal of this if it's related to the plot and relevant to the story/setting, but otherwise, just let characters be their own thing. They can be gay, straight, whatever- but I'd rather it not be fixated so heavily on unless it was relevant to the story or there was a message trying to be sent.

 

[Trev]

I'll be honest, as a gay man I really don't give a shit if people get pissed off at seeing minorities included. Don't watch it if it bothers you that much. You have literal decades of movies that don't have minorities if you're really that annoyed by it. I would like to see bigger representation in media and I don't really care if companies are cashing in on it. PLEASE cash in on it. I want more media with characters similar to me that isn't hot garbage like GBF.

 

[Vragon2.0]

Damn, this is going to be well...interesting.

Chinese people exist outside of being Kung Fu masters and immigrants with emotional tales to tell, and I think representing them as "normal people" who just happen to be of colour is not necessarily shoehorning or tokenism, it's just... depicting us as real people too. In fact, I don't want every show or movie where there are Chinese people in it to have "Chineseness" be the focal point, just as I'm sure gays don't want to be seen as just a flamboyant stereotype or whatever. Giving people of colour roles that could otherwise go to a white person is not segregation or lip service.

Depends on the role. If you have something that makes sense for it to be there or perhaps, wouldn't go against any pre-established rules or characters, then it'd be fine. For example, the new Doctor in Doctor Who being female makes sense due to Time Lords being able to do that in cannon.

Oh and regarding Chinese peeps representation in movies, two things.
1) There are sever movies where they aren't just the stereotypical bit. For example Dark knight
2) Cultural context via the story also needs to be considered. You wouldn't make a movie with excimos and just have a white person there as a role with no discernable or explained reason (looking at you Avatar the Last Airbender)

Something that doesn't matter or is completely "not needed" is add ons that don't really add to the character/narrative (like the previously mentioned Queer Lando, which I honestly wouldn't have guessed from the movie alone.)

When did this place become such a hotbed for the alt right????

Anyone have any thoughts on the phrase 'people of colour'? I can't help but feel that would bug the hell out of me if I were black. I mean, it's better than 'coloured' but why not just call somebody black, hispanic or asian?

You heard it hear first folks! Saying "people of color" is apparently some kind of emphasis on Alt-right lingo.

Dude, it's just a phrase used to describe a specific group of people. It's no more racist than saying, white people or black people. Context matters when it comes to using terminology, and I have to say that this comment of yours, Lipstick Vogue, is a bit off topic. I hope you aren't implying that alt-right's are in this thread, cause gee, that'd be a big assertion on your part.

I'll be honest, as a gay man I really don't give a muk if people get pissed off at seeing minorities included. Don't watch it if it bothers you that much. You have literal decades of movies that don't have minorities if you're really that annoyed by it. I would like to see bigger representation in media and I don't really care if companies are cashing in on it. PLEASE cash in on it. I want more media with characters similar to me that isn't hot garbage like GBF.

ah hah, yes let's use the "don't like, don't watch" argument. Let's not actually address any points or possible concerns they have with a certain starring role, let's not think about perspective and the context of the story/film, let's not actually talk with the chaps and all that, let's just act like story and interesting characters don't matter and so long as we're getting more representation, even if it's making the groups look worse, that it's a positive!

Dude, like, if you think the issue here is that minorities are getting in movies, please chill out. Not every critique of minority representation has issues because a black person is in it. If you want more rep, then writers and stuff can make more thing with it in it.

Oh and before you make the case that I'm triggered for rep or whatnot, not I'm not. I'll admit, I didn't like the Black Panther, but not for its representation, but for its plotholes, empty protagonist, incompetence from many characters and the failure in CGI in many areas. I didn't like Last Jedi, not because that lady had purple hair, but that every character save for two were acting dumb, some were out of character, the pointless subplot, I could go on.

Dude, it's fine if you want more rep. I'm fine with you clarifying anything if I messed up some interpretation, but frankly, I have to say that why go to a movie if it's poorly written with shallow characters, or did you go see Beauty and the Beast real life adaption, just cause there was a gay character, who honestly didn't get the emphasis on it that should have been given since they were pushing the "gay" aspect a lot.

Anyways, if I messed up on some interpretation from any of you peeps, feel free to clarify and with that, I'm going to see if I can watch infinity wars again.

 

[Trev]

Hey wanna do me a favor and chill?

Quite obviously I care about the types of characters we get represented as, hence why I lambasted GBF. What I really don't give a shit about the people who complain that a minority is in a movie for the simple fact that they are in a movie. That's an opinion I don't care about because it's hateful and there's no point in arguing with someone who holds that opinion.

There are so few LGBTQ+ characters in media that I generally don't complain unless they are gregariously awful or stereotypical. I haven't seen a lot of movies recently but in general people are getting better at writing interesting LGBTQ+ characters even if they only have minor roles. Hell, casual gayness is something I love seeing. I would love for more casually gay characters. Make that background guy in a cafe scene on a date with another guy? I'm down.

 

[Centipede Chan]

I am mixed with this. As a trans woman, and for lgbt in general, I don't think more representation will help solve much. Look at what's already on mainstream media TV for this. Jenner, Ru Paul, and nearly everything is either glorifying it like it's fun to do or gives the completely wrong idea. So yeah, I'd rather not unless done right. Even then a lot of it it feels forced in games and TV just so these people can see "see, there's a gay person in my show now so it's good."

 

[Trev]

Uh, RPDR is literally revolutionary for drag. RuPaul himself might be hella problematic but the show has done an insane amount of good for drag queens and to say that the show simply "makes gay look fun" completely ignores all the serious conversations they've had on the show that broaden an outsider's perspective on the gay experience. They've talked about the Pulse shooting, abandonment, family hatred, HIV/AIDS, body issues, and a whole host of other things. Please do not discredit that show just because it's fun. It has a major impact.

I agree on Jenner tho. Horrible human.

 

[Vragon2.0]

I was more or less addressing your "Don't like, don't watch" comment.

also, I had this,
"Dude, it's fine if you want more rep. I'm fine with you clarifying anything if I messed up some interpretation"

I will admit, if I came across as making the idea that you were thinking everyone was thinking like that, my apologies.

 

[Lipstick Vogue]

You heard it hear first folks! Saying "people of color" is apparently some kind of emphasis on Alt-right lingo.

No you didn't. The alt right comment was a joke about Shakugan.

I even added the bit about 'people of colour' later on. I just think it's a ridiculous term.

 

[Centipede Chan]

Uh, RPDR is literally revolutionary for drag. RuPaul himself might be hella problematic but the show has done an insane amount of good for drag queens and to say that the show simply "makes gay look fun" completely ignores all the serious conversations they've had on the show that broaden an outsider's perspective on the gay experience. They've talked about the Pulse shooting, abandonment, family hatred, HIV/AIDS, body issues, and a whole host of other things. Please do not discredit that show just because it's fun. It has a major impact.

I agree on Jenner tho. Horrible human.

Oh no I am not discrediting that. There a lot of serious things in it. I still think they can get around things a bit better in terms of public image, but that's the public's fault more than the show. Average person will only see "ha men wanting to be women" and not the other things you mentioned. I wish the average person, and people in general, were more open minded or at least more willing to learn and not jump on the hate/harassment/make fun of train within seconds.

 

[Vragon2.0]

No you didn't. The alt right comment was a joke about Shakugan.

I even added the bit about 'people of colour' later on. I just think it's a ridiculous term.

okay cool, now let me ask these.

1) Why is it relevant to Shakugan, or at least regarding the joke.

2) Why is the comment you made relevant to the thread at all? I mean, cool you think it's a ridiculous term ... anything about the topic?

Also, my thing was exaggerated sarcasm, I wouldn't accuse anyone without asking for their clarification or unless I have ample evidence, which I don't. So I guess we can chock this up to miscommunication regarding humor, via text that can't emote or do tone inflections.

 

[Lipstick Vogue]

It was a joke because his opinions don't always directly line up with those of this echo chamber of a forum, therefore he is an alt righter.

To be honest it was only loosely related to the topic in hand. Somebody used the phrase and I responded. I mean come on though, it is a stupid phrase. White people aren't colourless, in fact there's far more variety in eye/hair colour in white people than every other other ethnicity. Granted it's not actually a problem in the real world for me, the non white people I know aren't weird supremacists.

 

[Vragon2.0]

It was a joke because his opinions don't always directly line up with those of this echo chamber of a forum, therefore he is an alt righter.

To be honest it was only loosely related to the topic in hand. Somebody used the phrase and I responded. I mean come on though, it is a stupid phrase. White people aren't colourless, in fact there's far more variety in eye/hair colour in white people than every other other ethnicity. Granted it's not actually a problem in the real world for me, the non white people I know aren't weird supremacists.

Don't get me wrong, if it was a joke then fine, but I just don't think it was executed well or even was good in context as a joke. By that I mean, I think the joke wasn't great since it looked like more of a pot shot, though I can sorta see it now, so forget that then heh. We cool.

Well, pointless counter to your eye/hair variation, we are talking about skin tone, not additional features, at least in this little discussion, since well the term "people of color" applies more to skin than anything else to be fair.

Also, I don't disagree that it's a stupid phrase. Not cause it exists, just that it's not a lingo bit I really use since I just say by the cultural or nationality it is. So yeah, I don't think we vehemently disagree at least if you're talking about the use of it being more annoying rather than the point in it. Since well, I'm just me and don't have the cultural or upbringing someone in New York had or whatnot and all. Cultural Context and all is important to conversations like this heh.

and since I'm a bit off topic I'll add this little bit,
I think inclusivity is fine and that if it works well in the narrative, makes sense, cultural is sound, and the characters are good with a good plot you should be fine. I think the opportunity for this inclusivity stems better when it comes with original content or at least creating different shows like Steven Universe (though I have qualms with that show's story and a few other things). Overall, there are better ways to approach this than well, acting like you have some quota in Hollywood to fill and lining things up to fit it and all.

 

[Sydian]

I can't get over the fact the same person saying "i don't like bullying because i was bullied" is the same person calling Rose Tico a "token Asian" when her actress, Kellie Marie Tran, was bullied off of social media. I don't think it's a crime to want more than just white people or straight people in media, nor is it just a fad. It's a progressive movement and I believe it's going to go forward as time goes on.