Sorry, but I think this is where mine and your bar differ. I'm fine with a romance like that and trans and all, ~~I was using romance to tie into the straight aspects and all~~. I'm fine with them existing, if they are done well and written well. I was using what I said as an example why I don't like how it's portrayed and just "having it" in the movie isn't enough. I get it if my standards on what I want from a movie are different from yours and I think that's the area of rub in with me, you and some other peeps here.
Okay, let me put this distinction here because my argument is getting lost in the various responses. My main issue is not that I think the quality of writing for a character is excusable if the character is a minority (and if that's not what you're saying, gucci). My issue is that the quality of a character and the identifiers they have should not be dependent on each other. A character should
always be well-written. Their demographic shouldn't affect that. My issue comes with people who 1.) think a poorly written minority character is anyone's fault but the writer's (like blaming it on people who ask for representation), 2.) think that a minority shouldn't exist unless their identity serves the purpose of the character, or 3.) think that the mere existence of a minority character is pandering.
Why do you think I'm justifying it? I'm just explaining why it happens. I'm not saying it's right or the way to go. If you look at earlier things I say, I'm fine with more rep if done well and written better, "things you said you were fine with and agree to."
A lot of the movies that have been focusing on these attributes haven't bode well and while some have, they've been pretty shallow, see Black Panther's plot hole of a swiss cheese.
Whether you're explaining or justifying, it's not a good enough reasoning. Again, the minority market is
just as influential on sales as the majority market.
Black Panther was
wildly successful.
It literally broke records from how much money it pulled in. I'd call that boding well.
Here's the problem I've noticed with you, you seem very anti-white, or even what you call THE STRAIGHT MAJORITY in every area. You have a bias no one can crack regardless what they say.
If you want to go this route, be careful. I've seen plenty of your posts and I can call you on so many different things that I might actually hit a character limit.
Also, you should realize that I've been terrorized by straight white people my whole life. I've been threatened with violence, called various slurs, ostracized, judged, and harassed more times than I can count. If it seems like I have a bias against them, it's based wholly on the fact that they continually discriminate against me to no end. That doesn't mean I hate every straight white person, because surprisingly, I am actually a complex human capable of distinction between people I can trust and people I can't. I exhibit quite a bit of caution when talking to people from a demographic that I've had pretty terrible experiences with, yeah.
Did I apply the same scrutiny to the white characters?
I never applied any scrutiny to anyone. Male, female, any color, I've never judged any character in my life past the writing attached to them. When I first watched the series, I appreciated moreso that every character came from a different place, had different motivations and experiences because of that, and appreciated how it was worked into the narrative.
Their skin colors had literally nothing to do with anything to me whatsoever. I only ever realized that later on in introspective, that you can fill a diversity quota and not even be obvious about it. In fact, I still don't believe that was the original intent either. They just wanted to tell a world travelling story first and foremost.
You say you've never judged a character past the writing, yet you've literally said
in this thread, "If I see a minority character and there's no explanation behind why they're a minority, I consider them pandering." That is
literally doing exactly what I asked. If you don't look at a white character and say, "What's justifying their whiteness?" but you look at a character of color and say, "What's justifying their non-whiteness?" then that's a
humongous double standard to have and it's seriously super harmful considering that you want to criticize minority characters more than majority characters.
And the same is true for any other type of character, but sadly I myself have yet to see a good example, so I call the ones I have seen as just that: pandering agendas. Point me in the direction of a truly great character like that and I'll probably change my tune. But it hasn't happened yet.
A poorly written character is the fault of the writer and literally no one else. It is not the fault of people asking for representation. Criticize the
writer if you care so much about the writing. My suspicion is that you truly don't. And, as I said before, people are hesitant to put these types of characters in movies because of people with that attitude.
Ironic that you seem to focus on THAT, skin, sexuality, etc, and most other things that should never DEFINE a character moreso than anyone else here.
When did I
ever say that these traits should define a character? Literally never.
Yes, I do focus on those things because 1.) they matter, 2.) they affect me, 3.) they affect people I care about. I am very critical of poor representation, and I'm also critical of people who argue against representation and try to mask it with reasons that are quite honestly ridiculous. I do call people out because there are some attitudes that are very harmful. If it's that uncomfortable for you to be called out, don't reply and don't comment on these issues.
Funny enough, because I feel that our specific argument is becoming extremely personal and less about the issue at hand, I'm not responding to anything else you want to say to me regarding this subject. I recommend you do the same.
I honestly don't think that minority representation has increased tolerance or acceptance in society whatsoever. In recent years, the inclusion of minorities in films has grown significantly, however, homophobia, racism, xenophobia, or sexism haven't experienced any sort of decline.
That is literally not true at all. Even if it was, that doesn't mean stopping minority representation is a option. If anything, that's a reason to
increase it.
Furthermore, I don't understand the need to categorize people based on what they are (their race, sexuality, gender identity, so on and so forth) instead, as a society, we should focus on people for who they are as individuals.
Recognizing a person's identity
does focus on them as an individual.
Instead of representation, we need to change the policies in our governance, change policies in education. We need to teach children liberty, acceptance of others, respect, and self responsibility. Moreover, we must teach children that they don't have the right of have agency over another human being and vice versa. Tolerance and acceptance need to be learned in other ways, as well as self-responsibility. Minority representation may help in the slightest way, however, the focus needs to be on policies, government, and education. Representation doesn't correlate to the changing of policy, nor does it change people's minds, especially in an increasingly political climate.
This topic isn't about that.
I'm not proposing that representation is redundant, I just think in order for us to achieve equality we need other methods and thus need to put less emphasis on representation and more on policy.
EDIT: Actually, no, I disagree with this. Representation humanizes people of minority demographics. Considering that one of the main forces behind discrimination is not viewing the other group as humans, I'd say representation is
extremely important, as much as policy even.
