Most intimidating physical sweeper?

[sims796]

I donh't think Weezing can survive a good Double Edge after an Anger Point boost. I sorta forgot about Deo, somewhat, as I don't even think he can survive.

 

[.]

It's not the point of surviving. Deoxys-e is probably OHKO'd by practically all of Tauros's attacks without Anger Point, thing is, when Tauros outspeeds it, nothing stops the bull from ripping a whole in your team....










Except Skarmory >.>

 

[c_dog]

...You don't go on the Smogon ladder at all, do you?

i used to play all the time and 've recently started playing again. what's your point? you trying to call me a noob?

That wasn't the freakin' point. The point was that LO Dos is a better sweeper than Bulkydos and can sweep unprepared teams. Especially if the team only accounts for Bulkydos (as in saying, "Starmie is my Gyarados counter").

i agreed with this already

Okay, okay. Let's look at the four most popular bulky waters as of July.

Vaporeon, Swampert, Suicune, and Milotic.

Standard Vaporeon (188 HP/252 Defense) is 2HKO'd by DD LO Earthquake. While it fails to OHKO Gyarados with HP Electric in turn. This does not seem like a counter.

What does Swampert do to Gyarados again?

Suicune... well, yeah, you got me there. Suicune's not a particularly big user of HP Electric (or at least, not to the extent Vaporeon is). Usage stats say you'll see it about a third of the time, when you see Suicune at all. Also, HP Electric means taking a cut elsewhere in the moveset.

Milotic is a 2HKO. Also, very few Milotic carry HP Electric, and only around half (and you're not going to see a Milotic very often, mind you) even carry Hypnosis. 'Ccording to the usage stats, anyways.

Great counters those bulky waters are. The two most common have trouble stopping Gyara, the third rarely has HP Electric anyways, and the fourth's a 2HKO also, nevermind you'll not see it often.

So... that leaves, what? Suicune?

*Cough* "That statement is just ignorant and holds no weight whatsoever."

it was meant as a very desperate, and simplified way of beating gyarados with bulky waters, and was not neccessarily meant for popular OU's which can pull off better movesets. standard vaporeon, milotic, and suicune can all counter a gyarados well enough without hp electric. they could carry hp electirc, but their normal sets are good enough(even superior) counters that there really isn't a point for that.

and gyarados isn't going to live through a hp electric especially if stealth rock was in play already. x4 weakness means it's usually not going to survive a hidden power electric from anything with a half decent spatt, and some may even have tbolt.


seriously though... i find it funny that the game changes and yet it always comes back full circle. people seem to forget taunt-a-dros was invented in advance originally to get around one of the most OU physical walls of all time in skarmory since taunt screws it over. with taunt gone, skarmory would actually be a decent counter to gyarados again. gyarados would not enjoy being forced to switching in to stealth rock repeatedly.

 

[sims796]

It's not the point of surviving. Deoxys-e is probably OHKO'd by practically all of Tauros's attacks without Anger Point, thing is, when Tauros outspeeds it, nothing stops the bull from ripping a whole in your team....










Except Skarmory >.>

Stone Edge raeps Skarmory, then leaves it i the back alley.

I'm not too sure if he can outspeed Deo-E after just one boost. I think so, but I'm scared to say yes...

 

[.]

Stone Edge raeps Skarmory, then leaves it i the back alley.

I'm not too sure if he can outspeed Deo-E after just one boost. I think so, but I'm scared to say yes...

It does. With max speed and a +speed nature (Jolly), it reaches a speed of 350. Adding a Salac boost, it increases it by half, and reaches 525. Deoxys-e only reaches 504 at max.

 

[Magmortified]

i used to play all the time and 've recently started playing again. what's your point? you trying to call me a noob?

I can't say how you'd consider the metagame "weak" if you've played for a decent amount of time on the Smogon ladder.

While I'm not saying Smogon doesn't have its fair share of bad players, in general there are plenty of competent people on the server.

i agreed with this already

Cool.

it was meant as a very desperate, and simplified way of beating gyarados with bulky waters, and was not neccessarily meant for popular OU's which can pull off better movesets. standard vaporeon, milotic, and suicune can all counter a gyarados well enough without hp electric. they could carry hp electirc, but their normal sets are good enough(even superior) counters that there really isn't a point for that.

Save Milotic, which can at least carry Hypnosis, this just doesn't seem to make sense. Since a Vaporeon (which sports 110 Base Special Attack) will only 3HKO Gyarados (accounting for Life Orb recoil, anyhow. 4HKO without) using Ice Beam. That is quite a counter for something that gets 2HKO'd by DD LO Earthquake. Suicune generally has even less Special Attack to its name, and it's not going to fare much better since you're giving something with Dragon Dance some leeway.

Also:

and was not neccessarily meant for popular OU's which can pull off better movesets.

So what kind of bulky waters were you referring to? Quagsire, mayhap?

Also, if it's not at least OU, it generally doesn't show up often enough for Gyarados to care about it anyways.

and gyarados isn't going to live through a hp electric especially if stealth rock was in play already. x4 weakness means it's usually not going to survive a hidden power electric from anything with a half decent spatt, and some may even have tbolt.

You don't seem to give 95 HP/100 Special Defense on Gyarados' end enough credit. HP Electric will do enough to leave Gyarados teetering, but it's not an OHKO. Though Stealth Rocks does pretty much guarantee things. So I guess you can count HP Electric Vaporeon as a counter if you can get Stealth Rock up. But under the ideal conditions LO Dos can win out.

seriously though... i find it funny that the game changes and yet it always comes back full circle. people seem to forget taunt-a-dros was invented in advance originally to get around one of the most OU physical walls of all time in skarmory since taunt screws it over. with taunt gone, skarmory would actually be a decent counter to gyarados again. gyarados would not enjoy being forced to switching in to stealth rock repeatedly.

Skarmory does get 2HKO'd by DD LO Waterfall with Rocks of your own up, though. So you're pretty much relying on being able to Roost afterwards (better pray Whirlwind brings out... like... a Weavile or another wall or something. Considering the number of sweepers that can maul Skarmory... especially after it takes a Waterfall). Trying to phaze something like Gyarados seems pretty pointless when you're taking almost half your health off and could've just gone and killed it instead of doing 25% next time it switches in.

 

[c_dog]

Stone Edge raeps Skarmory, then leaves it i the back alley.

I'm not too sure if he can outspeed Deo-E after just one boost. I think so, but I'm scared to say yes...

it seems most users go with waterfall/icefang/earthquake, so skarmory is a pretty good counter i'd say. stone edge isn't very common since most gyarados seems to favor ice fang. stone edge's accuracy isn't great either and even if it hits skarmory should still survive and just pseudo haze it.

 

[.]

it seems most users go with waterfall/icefang/earthquake, so skarmory is a pretty good counter i'd say. stone edge isn't very common since most gyarados seems to favor ice fang. stone edge's accuracy isn't great either and even if it hits skarmory should still survive and just pseudo haze it.

Wrong. Stone Edge is becoming a lot more popular for dealing with other Gyarados'. Besides, STAB Waterfall does more to Skarmory then Stone Edge. And he wasn't talking about Gyarados, he was talking about Tauros.

 

[c_dog]

I can't say how you'd consider the metagame "weak" if you've played for a decent amount of time on the Smogon ladder.

While I'm not saying Smogon doesn't have its fair share of bad players, in general there are plenty of competent people on the server.[/quote]I played on smogon way back, since advanced gen. The fact that i've been using a really weak/unbalanced team(Brock) and still pretty much winning all my games despite taking a year off led me to the assumption that the metagame is really weak. It's like these players have never seen tanks or UU's and they just don't know how to win against non-sweeper teams.

Save Milotic, which can at least carry Hypnosis, this just doesn't seem to make sense. Since a Vaporeon (which sports 110 Base Special Attack) will only 3HKO Gyarados (accounting for Life Orb recoil, anyhow. 4HKO without) using Ice Beam. That is quite a counter for something that gets 2HKO'd by DD LO Earthquake. Suicune generally has even less Special Attack to its name, and it's not going to fare much better since you're giving something with Dragon Dance some leeway.

i don't really use OU's that much but surely these pokemon can counter gyarados if their users decide to go with that. vaporeon has haze which messes it up, and is immune to waterfall. if it chooses to baton pass some acid armor to something that takes normal damage/resistant then it can help finish gyarados. or just recover its hp with wish/protect while gyarados takes repeated damage from life orb recoil? maybe even use toxic? i don't know, i'm not an expert with these guys but surely there are people who use them, know their limitations and are creative enough to counter gyarados with them even without hp electric. :P hp electric is actually not all that uncommon on suicune and vaporeon actually.

So what kind of bulky waters were you referring to? Quagsire, mayhap?

Also, if it's not at least OU, it generally doesn't show up often enough for Gyarados to care about it anyways.

UU's. don't underestimate UU's now. There are a handful of good bulky water pokemon in UU's and with some creativity can all take down gyarados, catching it by surprise. hp electric was probably the most novel strategy of taking down gyarados with a UU, but there's a lot more to it then that. lapras with tbolt, feraligator with choice band rock slide, anything with choice specs, quagsire isn't bad either with moves like counter, yawn, encore at its disposal. the options as endless. these gyarados just don't know what's in store for them when facing a UU who can actually take some hits.

You don't seem to give 95 HP/100 Special Defense on Gyarados' end enough credit. HP Electric will do enough to leave Gyarados teetering, but it's not an OHKO. Though Stealth Rocks does pretty much guarantee things. So I guess you can count HP Electric Vaporeon as a counter if you can get Stealth Rock up. But under the ideal conditions LO Dos can win out.

it's pretty good, but you can't ignore x4 weakness and lifeorb recoil and stealth rock, and the fact they could have ev's in spatt. you know they could also go choice specs just to get OHKO on gyarados if they're that desperate right?

Skarmory does get 2HKO'd by DD LO Waterfall with Rocks of your own up, though. So you're pretty much relying on being able to Roost afterwards (better pray Whirlwind brings out... like... a Weavile or another wall or something. Considering the number of sweepers that can maul Skarmory... especially after it takes a Waterfall). Trying to phaze something like Gyarados seems pretty pointless when you're taking almost half your health off and could've just gone and killed it instead of doing 25% next time it switches in.

pseudohaze, spike/sr damage, take hits.. that's what skarmory is for. it's not just the 25% damage on gyarados as sr can weaken their entire team. this may help weaken gyarados' team so that your sweepers can clean them up.

anyway we're getting way way off topic here. =0=;;

 

[c_dog]

Wrong. Stone Edge is becoming a lot more popular for dealing with other Gyarados'. Besides, STAB Waterfall does more to Skarmory then Stone Edge. And he wasn't talking about Gyarados, he was talking about Tauros.

in his quote he said skarmory. the last bit was about tauros but i didn't reply to that. i should have deleted that last part though.

if stone edge becomes more popular then celebi would become a even better counter than before. i think gyarados would have more pokemon to worry about than itself. it'll be facing bulky grass types a lot more if it chooses to take ice fang out.

anyway, skarmory is still a decent counter. it can take some stab waterfalls no problem.

 

[.]

in his quote he said skarmory. the last bit was about tauros but i didn't reply to that. i should have deleted that last part though.

if stone edge becomes more popular then celebi would become a even better counter than before. i think gyarados would have more pokemon to worry about than itself. it'll be facing bulky grass types a lot more if it chooses to take ice fang out.

anyway, skarmory is still a decent counter. it can take some stab waterfalls no problem.

Um... Ice Fang/Stone Edge/Waterfall/Dragon Dance is becoming the standard set. Celebi is waxed (2HKO'd) by a single DD'd Waterfall.

Skarmory will not be taking Stone Edges from multiple DD Gyarados.

 

[Aquilae]

i don't really use OU's that much but surely these pokemon can counter gyarados if their users decide to go with that. vaporeon has haze which messes it up, and is immune to waterfall. if it chooses to baton pass some acid armor to something that takes normal damage/resistant then it can help finish gyarados. or just recover its hp with wish/protect while gyarados takes repeated damage from life orb recoil? maybe even use toxic? i don't know, i'm not an expert with these guys but surely there are people who use them, know their limitations and are creative enough to counter gyarados with them even without hp electric

tbh I don't see what is the use of a hazing Vaporeon if only just to counter Gyarados, Gyarados can still DD on the next move and Vaporeon is screwed, with Wish / Protect Gyarados can DD again. Vaporeon literally needs to constantly haze to counter Gyarados which isn't good at all.
Toxic doesn't kill it fast enough.
If Vaporeon uses Acid Armor Gyarados can also choose to DD up again, using it three times would net Gyarados 5 DDs in total which would be enough to sweep the next pokemon unless it is another Gyarados counter (...).

..lapras with tbolt, feraligator with choice band rock slide, anything with choice specs, quagsire isn't bad either...

Max HP / Max Def Lapras gets OHKOed by Stone Edge after Stealth Rock damage.
Choice Band Feraligatr even with max Attack only has a minimal chance to KO Gyarados, DD LO Stone Edge 2HKOs back unless Feraligatr is running max / max Def with +Def nature. Judging by that amount of damage it would be clear that said Gatr was running a Choice band and thus made setup for SDLuke and stuff.
Max HP / Max Def Quagsire gets 2HKOed by DD LO EQ, it needs Yawn to "counter" Gyarados since HP Elec isn't going to KO.
"anything with Choice Specs" isn't specific enough, in the event that you would actually have to slap Choice Specs on a pokemon to counter Gyarados effectively, then I would not use that pokemon solely for the purpose of countering Gyarados.

it's pretty good, but you can't ignore x4 weakness and lifeorb recoil and stealth rock, and the fact they could have ev's in spatt. you know they could also go choice specs just to get OHKO on gyarados if they're that desperate right?

It is not a KO. That is the point of saying it. Even with 269 SpA Vaporeon cannot get the KO on Gyarados while LO Dos will wipe it out, standing a great chance of surviving even with 2x LO recoil.

pseudohaze, spike/sr damage, take hits.. that's what skarmory is for. it's not just the 25% damage on gyarados as sr can weaken their entire team. this may help weaken gyarados' team so that your sweepers can clean them up.

I'm going with Mag here, this does not help disprove that Skarmory is a horrible counter to Gyarados. If you don't get something that Skarmory can survive a hit from after DD LO Aqua Tail (52% - 61%), you're screwed.

if stone edge becomes more popular then celebi would become a even better counter than before. i think gyarados would have more pokemon to worry about than itself. it'll be facing bulky grass types a lot more if it chooses to take ice fang out.

Since when did it show that by running Stone Edge, Gyarados wouldn't have Ice Fang? This may hold true while considering a Gyarados with 2 moveslots, but unfortunately most Gyarados run three, DD / Waterfall / Ice Fang / Stone Edge or Earthquake.

Oh, and by the way Skarmory can only take 3 Aqua Tails at most and that's assuming the Gyarados user rolls minimum damage both turns. That is a problem for Skarmory.

 

[.]

I played on smogon way back, since advanced gen. The fact that i've been using a really weak/unbalanced team(Brock) and still pretty much winning all my games despite taking a year off led me to the assumption that the metagame is really weak. It's like these players have never seen tanks or UU's and they just don't know how to win against non-sweeper teams.

This proves nothing. You could've been battling crap players.

i don't really use OU's that much but surely these pokemon can counter gyarados if their users decide to go with that. vaporeon has haze which messes it up, and is immune to waterfall. if it chooses to baton pass some acid armor to something that takes normal damage/resistant then it can help finish gyarados. or just recover its hp with wish/protect while gyarados takes repeated damage from life orb recoil? maybe even use toxic? i don't know, i'm not an expert with these guys but surely there are people who use them, know their limitations and are creative enough to counter gyarados with them even without hp electric. :P hp electric is actually not all that uncommon on suicune and vaporeon actually.

Haze Vaporeon is set up fodder for Gyarados. If she wants to play that game, she can. Gyarados will get in a Stone Edge, forcing Vappy to heal, giving Gyara a free DD. And you say it "passes acid armor to something that takes normal damage/resistant" That means Vaporeon is not a Gyarados counter, using your logic. If you're not an expert, you shouldn't be making all of these weird strategies to beat Gyarados. Suicune never uses HP Electric. If it does, then it loses versatility, somethign Suicune needs.

UU's. don't underestimate UU's now. There are a handful of good bulky water pokemon in UU's and with some creativity can all take down gyarados, catching it by surprise. hp electric was probably the most novel strategy of taking down gyarados with a UU, but there's a lot more to it then that. lapras with tbolt, feraligator with choice band rock slide, anything with choice specs, quagsire isn't bad either with moves like counter, yawn, encore at its disposal. the options as endless. these gyarados just don't know what's in store for them when facing a UU who can actually take some hits.

Lapras is weak to Stone Edge. OHKO'd with little trouble. Feraligatr is a **** counter to it, Rock Slide will not OHKO, I doubt it would even 2HKO. Still, Gyarados will be outspeeding and 2HKOing it with little trouble, assuming Gatr even tries to stay in. "Anything with Choice Specs" is retarded. Sorry, that was just a idiotic thing to say. I'm assuming Choice Specs Shuckle counters Gyarados? Hilarious. Quagsire seems decent, but Ice Fang is gonna hurt when it's boosted (since it does neutral damage)

it's pretty good, but you can't ignore x4 weakness and lifeorb recoil and stealth rock, and the fact they could have ev's in spatt. you know they could also go choice specs just to get OHKO on gyarados if they're that desperate right?

Why are we assuming SR is up? And no, not all Specs users can OHKO Gyara, Specs Shuckle comes to mind.

pseudohaze, spike/sr damage, take hits.. that's what skarmory is for. it's not just the 25% damage on gyarados as sr can weaken their entire team. this may help weaken gyarados' team so that your sweepers can clean them up.

Good luck doing 25% damage to Gyarados, because Skarmory is set-up fodder this gen.

anyway we're getting way way off topic here. =0=;;

No, we are not getting off topic here.

 

[Ársa]

Especially considering you battle opponents on the ladder via your rating, so starting from scratch you would be battling against the lower ranked opponents, or the 'fun' players.

~T_S

 

[Sora_8920]

This proves nothing. You could've been battling crap players.




Haze Vaporeon is set up fodder for Gyarados. If she wants to play that game, she can. Gyarados will get in a Stone Edge, forcing Vappy to heal, giving Gyara a free DD. And you say it "passes acid armor to something that takes normal damage/resistant" That means Vaporeon is not a Gyarados counter, using your logic. If you're not an expert, you shouldn't be making all of these weird strategies to beat Gyarados. Suicune never uses HP Electric. If it does, then it loses versatility, somethign Suicune needs.



Lapras is weak to Stone Edge. OHKO'd with little trouble. Feraligatr is a **** counter to it, Rock Slide will not OHKO, I doubt it would even 2HKO. Still, Gyarados will be outspeeding and 2HKOing it with little trouble, assuming Gatr even tries to stay in. "Anything with Choice Specs" is retarded. Sorry, that was just a idiotic thing to say. I'm assuming Choice Specs Shuckle counters Gyarados? Hilarious. Quagsire seems decent, but Ice Fang is gonna hurt when it's boosted (since it does neutral damage)



Why are we assuming SR is up? And no, not all Specs users can OHKO Gyara, Specs Shuckle comes to mind.



Good luck doing 25% damage to Gyarados, because Skarmory is set-up fodder this gen.



No, we are not getting off topic here.

Agreed, it's a conversation... Also, T_S is right.

 

[sims796]

I disagree. Is this only about LO Gya? I thought this waas about the most intimidating sweeper. I understand you are having a sub conversation, but I'm sure that there are other competant sweepers outside of the Gya family. There has literally been two pages worth of discussion.

 

[c_dog]

if gyarados go with DD/waterfall/icefang/stone edge, then they lose consistency against bulky waters. stone edge is only 80% accurate compared to earthquake. i just thought i'd mention that because i don't see many people replacing earthquake with that 20% accuracy drop.

tbh I don't see what is the use of a hazing Vaporeon if only just to counter Gyarados, Gyarados can still DD on the next move and Vaporeon is screwed, with Wish / Protect Gyarados can DD again. Vaporeon literally needs to constantly haze to counter Gyarados which isn't good at all.
Toxic doesn't kill it fast enough.
If Vaporeon uses Acid Armor Gyarados can also choose to DD up again, using it three times would net Gyarados 5 DDs in total which would be enough to sweep the next pokemon unless it is another Gyarados counter (...).

lol, i guess people in today's game has never seen a hazer used properly. constantly haze is no good even though you're effectively shutting down gyarados' attacks? and acid armor builds up defense faster than DD to attack(2:1) so vaporeon would be in position to baton pass or attack once it has acid armor'ed up while gyarados is doing puny damage to it/it's teammate. toxic can work because vaporeon has the staying power.

Max HP / Max Def Lapras gets OHKOed by Stone Edge after Stealth Rock damage.
Choice Band Feraligatr even with max Attack only has a minimal chance to KO Gyarados, DD LO Stone Edge 2HKOs back unless Feraligatr is running max / max Def with +Def nature. Judging by that amount of damage it would be clear that said Gatr was running a Choice band and thus made setup for SDLuke and stuff.
Max HP / Max Def Quagsire gets 2HKOed by DD LO EQ, it needs Yawn to "counter" Gyarados since HP Elec isn't going to KO.
"anything with Choice Specs" isn't specific enough, in the event that you would actually have to slap Choice Specs on a pokemon to counter Gyarados effectively, then I would not use that pokemon solely for the purpose of countering Gyarados.

actually, stone edge wouldn't be able to ohko lapras. it would be close after stealth rock damage but not quite most of the time. CB feraligatr is mostly likely going to KO than not. CB'ed 339attack doing x2 damage is nothing to sneeze at. we're talking 374-442 worth of damage on gyarados which is more than enough. funny you say gyarados would OHKO lapras assuming gyarados would roll max damage and feraligatr not. biased much? quagsire could actually have the move "counter" which just returns whatever gyarados dished out and effectively "OHKO" while yawn is just another option. and why do i always need to name a specific pokemon when there are a lot of options that could work? vaporeon makes a decent choice specs user, even blastoise and swampert too. all can take hits and all have the ability to OHKO gyarados with specs.

It is not a KO. That is the point of saying it. Even with 269 SpA Vaporeon cannot get the KO on Gyarados while LO Dos will wipe it out, standing a great chance of surviving even with 2x LO recoil.

269 Spat is enough to OHKO after stealth rock damage, and is more than enough to OHKO with choice specs, with or without SR. w/o specs vaporeon stands a great chance of surviving with its support moves. do i need to repeat them again?

I'm going with Mag here, this does not help disprove that Skarmory is a horrible counter to Gyarados. If you don't get something that Skarmory can survive a hit from after DD LO Aqua Tail (52% - 61%), you're screwed.

oh so now it's aqua tail. skarmory is meant to be taking hits. after leftovers that's enough hp left that it might not even need to use roost just yet.

Since when did it show that by running Stone Edge, Gyarados wouldn't have Ice Fang? This may hold true while considering a Gyarados with 2 moveslots, but unfortunately most Gyarados run three, DD / Waterfall / Ice Fang / Stone Edge or Earthquake.

awesome, so the survivability of bulky waters is even greater considering stone edge's poor accuracy and low pp.

Oh, and by the way Skarmory can only take 3 Aqua Tails at most and that's assuming the Gyarados user rolls minimum damage both turns. That is a problem for Skarmory.

skarmory only needs to take one hit from it, then be in position to weaken the opposing team with spikes/sr damage. it does not need to win against gyarados in a one on one situation. skarmory helps put your team in position to sweep.

 

[Lapras1016]

I like Garchomp, and it is powerful, but I also have faith in Slaking. Even with that horrible Truant, it can cripple teams:

Slaking @Choice Band/Leftovers
Ability: Truant
Nature: Adamant
EV's: 4 HP, 252 Atk, 252 Speed
Earthquake
Giga Impact
Hammer Arm/Brick Break/Focus Punch
Shadow Claw

Basically, strength is the key here. Setting up, like Amnesia, with Truant, may just be the way to go down. Giga Impact's one-turn rest coincides with Slaking's Truant, although switching out isn't an option. Still, this new physical Hyper Beam is nothing to scoff at.

 

[.]

if gyarados go with DD/waterfall/icefang/stone edge, then they lose consistency against bulky waters. stone edge is only 80% accurate compared to earthquake. i just thought i'd mention that because i don't see many people replacing earthquake with that 20% accuracy drop.

BulkyWaters? The only thing walling that set is Empoleon, which is very uncommon.

lol, i guess people in today's game has never seen a hazer used properly. constantly haze is no good even though you're effectively shutting down gyarados' attacks? and acid armor builds up defense faster than DD to attack(2:1) so vaporeon would be in position to baton pass or attack once it has acid armor'ed up while gyarados is doing puny damage to it/it's teammate. toxic can work because vaporeon has the staying power.

Haze is almost never seen, mostly since it's a complete waste of time. You Haze, and then they KO you and start boosting again. Again, Vaporeon gets 2HKO'd by Gyarados's EQ/Stone Edge after a DD. Good luck stalling that beast.

269 Spat is enough to OHKO after stealth rock damage, and is more than enough to OHKO with choice specs, with or without SR. w/o specs vaporeon stands a great chance of surviving with its support moves. do i need to repeat them again?

Vaporeon is a Gyara counter, but not for the reasons you put. It can't come in on a DD'd Gyarados, take a hit, and then take another hit. It needs to predict and come in on a predicted Dragon Dance.

oh so now it's aqua tail. skarmory is meant to be taking hits. after leftovers that's enough hp left that it might not even need to use roost just yet

...What? Leftovers won't bring it back from 61% damage. Skarmory gets 2HKO'd, kthanbai.

awesome, so the survivability of bulky waters is even greater considering stone edge's poor accuracy and low pp.

Proves nothing at all.

skarmory only needs to take one hit from it, then be in position to weaken the opposing team with spikes/sr damage. it does not need to win against gyarados in a one on one situation. skarmory helps put your team in position to sweep.

Umm...If it switches into an attack, it gets 2HKO'd. If it's Waterfall, there's a flinch chance. If Skarm is gonna SR AND THEN Whirlwind, that's three chances Gyara has to KO, which it can do.

 

[El Gofre]

Basically, strength is the key here. Setting up, like Amnesia, with Truant, may just be the way to go down. Giga Impact's one-turn rest coincides with Slaking's Truant, although switching out isn't an option. Still, this new physical Hyper Beam is nothing to scoff at.

Actually Giga Impact is still a bad choice on slaking, albeit a better one when compared to other pokes, because slaking can still switch out with truant- It just cant attack twice in a row. GI leaves you a sitting duck so special sweepers can merrily come in and rape you.