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My secular arguments against gay marriage.

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    Tradition:
    "Tradition enables us to isolate the new against a background of permanence, and to transfer its merit to originality, to genius, to the decisions proper to individuals" (FOUCAULT, The archaeology of knowledge)
    It is tradition that enables people to view their current situation and evaluate it against the past. If the past made a mistake, lets not make the same one, if the past succeeded lets continue with that action. It is documented that any ancient civilization fell right at the time, that they started to accept homosexuality. (Romans, and Greek) The most successful society have all started with the concept of traditional marriage, one between a man, and a women.

    Tradition is the poorest excuse for prohibiting same-sex couple from getting married. In fact, US Constitutional law has repeatedly rejected "tradition" as a basis for denying any citizen his or her rights. It was tradition to keep slaves. That was rejected. It was tradition to not consider women persons under the law. That was rejected. So many of society's oldest traditions have been rejected because they cause actual harm to people. And also, there are some cultures which in fact accept same-sex unions traditionally (yes, even in this day and age), so who then gets to decide whose traditions take precedent?

    Marriage is a right:
    This statement is not true, people assume that marriage is a right, and that if marriage is a right then gay marriage becomes a civil rights problem. However marriage is limited to hetersexuals as well. Roughly half of all states do not allow first cousins from marrying, and all do not allow marriage of closer blood relatives, even if said individuals are sterile. In all states, it is ileagal to attempt to marry more than one person, or even to pass off more then one person as one's spouse. Some states restrict the marriage of people suffering from syphillis, or other veneral deieses. Therefore, homosexuality is not the only group to be excluded form marriage.

    This argument is far from correct. The U.S. Supreme court on multiple occasions stated that marriage is a fundamental human right and that it is protected via the due process and equal protection clauses of the 14th amendment. To quote Loving vs Virginia (1967): "Marriage is one of the "basic civil rights of man," fundamental to our very existence and survival." In Zablocki v Redhail (1978): "Justice Marshall wrote for the majority in a 5-3-1 court holding. Affirming the judgment of the District Court, Marshall concurred with the District Court's reading of marriage being a fundamental right, relying on Loving v. Virginia (1967) and Griswold v. Connecticut (1965). -- Source Wikipedia." These are but two examples. There are others, each of which holds that marriage is in fact a civil right. A person's belief that it isn't is irrelevant under the law. So your assertion would be false given legal precedent.

    Constitutionality:

    Already addressed above. Marriage is protected via the due process and equal protection clauses of the 14th amendment.

    The economic problem:
    When the state recognizes marriage, it bestows upon the couple certain benefits which are costly to both the state and other individuals. Collecting a deceased spouse's social security, claiming an extra tax exemption for a spouse, and having the right to be covered under a spouse's health insurance policy are just a few examples of the costly benefits associated with marriage. In a sense, a married couple receives a subsidy. Why? Because a marriage between two unrelated heterosexuals is likely to result in a family with children, and propagation of society is a compelling state interest. For this reason, states have, in varying degrees, restricted from marriage couples unlikely to produce children.

    States are prohibited from denying marriage to any couple who does not wish to, or is incapable of, having children. There never has been a requirement for any couple to have children after getting married. Your assertion to the contrary is false. As an example, marriage is permitted between two people if one or both is incarcerated in a prison. Such a marriage is unlikely to produce any offspring, but the U.S. Supreme Court has held in Turner v. Safley (1987) that a regulation that prohibited inmates from marrying without the permission of the warden, found that it was "not...reasonably related to legitimate penological objectives" and "impermissibly burdened" their right to marry.

    Producing Children:
    Few people who are sterile know it, and fertility tests are too expensive and burdensome to mandate. One might argue that the exclusion of blood relatives from marriage is only necessary to prevent the conception of genetically defective children, but blood relatives cannot marry even if they undergo sterilization. Some couples who marry plan not to have children, but without mind-reading technology, excluding them is impossible. Elderly couples can marry, but such cases are so rare that it is simply not worth the effort to restrict them. The marriage laws, therefore, ensure, albeit imperfectly, that the vast majority of couples who do get the benefits of marriage are those who bear children. Homosexual relationships do nothing to serve the state interest of propagating society, so there is no reason for the state to grant them the costly benefits of marriage, unless they serve some other state interest. The burden of proof, therefore, is on the advocates of gay marriage to show what state interest these marriages serve. Thus far, this burden has not been met.

    As I stated above, there is no law on the books which prohibits a couple from getting married if they choose not to, or are incapable of having a child. And if there perhaps is such a law, it is unenforceable due to U.S. Supreme Court rulings. As an example, there are states which still have on the books that prohibit same sex couples from engaging in sexual activity. These anti-sodomy statutes are unenforceable, however, due to a 2003 ruling by the U.S. Supreme court ruling in Lawrence vs. Texas. No state can deny to any couple marriage if they are incapable of having children or have no desire to have any. There are in fact many such marriages as evidenced by the ever decreasing birthrates among married couples.

    What about artificial insemination? What about the children?

    Already addressed in above points. Having children is not required for marriage. Never has been, and I expect never will be.

    You compared homosexuality to what?
    Some have compared the prohibition of homosexual marriage to the prohibition of interracial marriage. This analogy fails because fertility does not depend on race, making race irrelevant to the state's interest in marriage. By contrast, homosexuality is highly relevant because it precludes procreation. Race is also something that a person is
    (A) born into, and (B) can not change
    While homosexuality is something that you chose. Now there are some who say that you are born that way, but you can pretend to be straight, and you can always chose not to act on those homosexual impulses. Being born with something does not excuse it. Studies have shown that thieves, and other criminals, have cretin brain differences compared to the average person as such, if a thief was to say, "I was born this way" they would not be excused.

    I'm not even going to address this above point because it's an argument that is so full of facilities that logically it makes no sense whatsoever. The above is an example of fear-mongering, and talking-points used by marriage equality opponents and have been debunked time and time again. Fact: being gay is not a choice. Neither is being straight, or being bisexual, or being transgendered. Your assertion that people who are gay choose to be gay is not only blatantly false, it's also extremely insulting. I'd cite many professional papers done by professional groups such as the American Psychological Association but I suspect you'd reject every single one of them.

    Gay marriage is not necessary:
    there is nothing stopping homosexuals from living in such relationships today. Advocates of gay marriage claim gay couples need marriage in order to have hospital visitation and inheritance rights, but they can easily obtain these rights by writing a living will and having each partner designate the other as trustee and heir. There is nothing stopping gay couples from signing a joint lease or owning a house jointly, as many single straight people do with roommates. The only benefits of marriage from which homosexual couples are restricted are those that are costly to the state and society.

    It could equally be stated that heterosexual marriage is not necessary either, for the exact same reasons you stated.

    The slippery slope argument:
    The biggest danger homosexual civil marriage presents is the enshrining into law the notion that sexual love, regardless of its fecundity, is the sole criterion for marriage. If the state must recognize a marriage of two men simply because they love one another, upon what basis can it deny marital recognition to a group of two men and three women, for example, or a sterile brother and sister who claim to love each other? Homosexual activists protest that they only want all couples treated equally. But why is sexual love between two people more worthy of state sanction than love between three, or five? When the purpose of marriage is procreation, the answer is obvious. If sexual love becomes the primary purpose, the restriction of marriage to couples loses its logical basis, leading to marital chaos.

    The absurdity of the above argument can be explained thusly: "Man walks up to woman on the street and says: 'I'd like to have a child, let's get married.' Woman things for a minutes, appraising this male's suitability as a father and then says: 'okay.'

    Love plays a huge role in determining whether a couple will get married. In fact, I'd consider it to be the controlling factor. A couple does not get married because they wish to have children. They get married because they love each other and because they wish to share their lives together and to make a life long commitment to each other. Sometimes the result of this union is a child, and sometimes it is a childless union. Both are valid because in the end, it is the love between these two individuals that defines their relationship.
     
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  • Sodomy is bacterial ridden, with intercourse from behind, being not healthy at all. AIDS is also statistically higher among homosexuals as well.

    A brother and sister find each other both physcially and emotionally attached, and feel that the same way you do. That not being together would be horrible. However we look down a pound that relationship as well, and the state tries to prevent those kind of relationships.

    As a side note:
    Just because you or person A sais they feel that they didn't chose that lifestyle, they are still choosing that choice subconsciously.
    Even if I was to believe other wise, how can I be sure that person A is telling the truth, or the person A just is not mistaken, or confused.
    Lots of normal things are full of bacteria. That's why we bathe. Also, fun fact: "sodomy" isn't restricted to homosexuals.

    But what confuses me is your claim of "subconscious choice." Did you choose to be straight? (I'm assuming you are straight.) I would guess that you didn't.
     
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    Lots of normal things are full of bacteria. That's why we bathe. Also, fun fact: "sodomy" isn't restricted to homosexuals.

    But what confuses me is your claim of "subconscious choice." Did you choose to be straight? (I'm assuming you are straight.) I would guess that you didn't.

    I'd also add the following to support the contention that people do not choose their sexual orientation, subconsciously or otherwise. They are two studies which compare the brains of heterosexuals and homosexuals. Here are the two studies:

    October 27, 2004 - Brain response to putative pheromones in homosexual men (http://www.pnas.org/content/102/20/7356.full.pdf+html)

    February 27, 2008 - PET and MRI show differences in cerebral asymmetry and functional connectivity between homo- and heterosexual subjects (http://www.pnas.org/cgi/reprint/105/27/9403)

    Lastly, it should also be pointed out that sodomy is not restricted to anal sex, but also includes oral sex, which funny enough includes kissing, since some kissing also includes the penetration of a cavity by a partner's anatomy, namely the tongue.
     

    droomph

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  • Sodomy is bacterial ridden, with intercourse from behind, being not healthy at all. AIDS is also statistically higher among homosexuals as well.

    A brother and sister find each other both physcially and emotionally attached, and feel that the same way you do. That not being together would be horrible. However we look down a pound that relationship as well, and the state tries to prevent those kind of relationships.

    As a side note:
    Just because you or person A sais they feel that they didn't chose that lifestyle, they are still choosing that choice subconsciously.
    Even if I was to believe other wise, how can I be sure that person A is telling the truth, or the person A just is not mistaken, or confused.
    Don't say "statistically" if you don't have any statistics to back it up. I'm not being rude, but I would like to see some references.

    And while yes, sodomy is full of bacteria, so is normal sex. And by the way, you know not only guys do that right? And also, guys can do other things than butt sex, so please be aware of what you say.

    And speaking of "bacterially ridden", guess what? Life is full of bacteria. Guess what you touched when you opened your car door? That's right, bacteria. Guess what you ate alongside breakfast? That's right, bacteria. Guess what you are primarily made of? That's right, bacteria. If you had said "diseases", that would have been more acceptable. But nonetheless, you can still get AIDS and STDs through normal sex, so sodomy isn't worse than normal sex.

    And guess why incest is not allowed? Because through tradition and science, it has been proven that kids conceived from incest are worse-equipped to face dangers in the real world (eg diseases) and thus will cost the government and private medical institutions (so pretty much everyone) more in the long run in medical costs, thus it isn't allowed.

    However, gay relationships aren't costly at all, since no children can be conceived directly. There is no cost in medical care from resulting diseases or problems from that relationship, since there is none.

    And subconsciously I think I'm gay? You also subconsciously made the decision that you are straight. Everything not conscious is subconscious, and that is where the sense of attraction to either gender comes from. So saying that I subconsciously made that choice so thus I can't be gay is like saying I should have never been born. It's not something I can control, and being straight is also something you can't control. However, society prefers you, so you're let off for deciding subconsciously while I'm being punished for doing exactly what you're doing.

    And no, I am not mistaken. You know when you are gay. Being confused happens only because you are told that you must be something you aren't. If we allowed gay marriage, nobody would be sexually confused, because there is nothing holding them back. And no, why would you make a life commitment to be something you're not? There is no need to be "sure" about anybody's sexuality. If they say they are, then let it be. It's none of your business. They've decided to ruin their lives, so be it.

    Please understand that gay people don't have a choice. We aren't doing that because we hate rules. It is who we are, and it's really as natural as being straight.


    When people say "gay marriage" they don't mean that churches will have to allow same sex couples to be wed and that all religions have to cater to homosexuals now. All it means is that when two gay people are officially partnered they will have the same legal rights as regular married people, such as custody over children or if they were to split up their belongings would be distributed the same as they would in a divorce. By just giving a civil partnership more rights would be pointless because then it would make having two ceremonies pointless because it would all have the same outcome.

     
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    Sodomy is bacterial ridden, with intercourse from behind, being not healthy at all. AIDS is also statistically higher among homosexuals as well.
    Sodomy is any copulation sexual act not involving a penis and a vagina. That means the butt, the mouth, the titties... the ear, or wherever it is you all do these days. Not to mention the number of positive carriers amoung the straight community is definitely catching up to the LGBTQ community. Also not to mention this argument is also invalid as where do Lesbian's "do it?" I'm pretty sure they aren't committing very many acts of anal sex, or if they do it is with toy and the spread of STDs through this kind of play is virtually nullified; in the case of asexuals with a gay romantic mindset, the same thing holds true: they can't married, and that's even with their abstaining from sex. So again, not a valid excuse.

    As a side note:
    Just because you or person A sais they feel that they didn't chose that lifestyle, they are still choosing that choice subconsciously.
    Even if I was to believe other wise, how can I be sure that person A is telling the truth, or the person A just is not mistaken, or confused.

    To do does not equate desire. That is to say: that even if the 'person A' "chose to be straight" they would not really feel that way. They could live a straight lifestyle even getting married with a member of the opposite sex and having kids as well and not ever letting anyone know. The reason that most don't do this, however, is because they have a genuine attraction to the same gender and just can't truly be happy in a heterosexual relationship. They will go through a lot of strife trying to come out of the closet in a situation like this, they won't truly be happy as their partner is not of the attractive sex. While love is love and you could fall in love with anyone, it is a bit difficult to maintain a relationship when you have no desire to sleep with your partner. Not that you need sex for love, but a relationship encompasses much more than love, sex being one of those things.
     
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    Oryx

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    I want to note a quote that I saw recently that applies to the "how do I know they're not lying about their sexuality" argument:

    "Racism is not merely a simplistic hatred. It is, more often, broad sympathy toward some and broader skepticism toward others." -Ta-Nehisi Coates, writer for The Atlantic

    Seems like that applies perfectly well to homophobia as well. If your assumption for a person who is gay is that they are lying or 'confused' while your assumption for a person who is straight is that they know what they want and who they're attracted to, then your belief is rooted in homophobia. I know you may want to claim that you're not a homophobe, and that's a completely reasonable reaction. Whether or not you self-identify as a homophobe, making that assumption is a homophobic action. So if you would not like to be identified as a homophobe, you should re-assess your statements from a place of sympathy towards everyone, not just sympathy towards people like you.
     

    droomph

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  • Yes, the only valid arguments for this are religious ones, and in a government where religion is not a valid argument, there's no real say in why we shouldn't allow gay marriage, much like we had with interracial marriage.

    edit @below: yes, it is true, but from a religious standpoint it is completely valid to abolish gay marriage. However, bystanders can realize how stupid it is. In a country with many religions, there is no room for religious viewpoints.
     
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    Shining Raichu

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  • I would submit that even the religious arguments are invalid, on grounds that are moral rather than legal. It's not right for one group of people to impose upon the way of life of another. I realise that's tangential to the topic, but I think when it's brought up it's important to make sure it's understood why the government has ruled religious arguments invalid.
     

    Gliberty

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    I would submit that even the religious arguments are invalid, on grounds that are moral rather than legal. It's not right for one group of people to impose upon the way of life of another. I realise that's tangential to the topic, but I think when it's brought up it's important to make sure it's understood why the government has ruled religious arguments invalid.

    Not to mention the various interpretation of the original text of the bible. The word interpreted as "homosexual" in recent editions of the bible has been interpreted as the "sexually corrupt/perverted", "pedophiles", "male prostitutes", among hundreds of other interpretations throughout the span of almost 2000 years. The term was never interpreted as homosexual until the mid to late 1900's. How does a term jump from the sexually corrupt to homosexual?

    The same goes with 'sodomite'. That term was directed toward individuals who are rapist, thieves, vandals, among other actions that are not pertinent to homosexuality.

    Every instance of the bible that brings up homosexuality in present editions had been interpreted originally as terms/phrases that are completely impertinent to homosexuality. Therefore, the homosexuality as a sin was invented by humans, and is therefore, not a Christian religious belief. Thus, citing the bible for non-secular arguments is fallacious and invalid.
     

    NarutoActor

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  • It is pretty clear when it states "A man shal not lay with another man" with lay being the common term for sex, or lay in bed. I never liked the idea of bible applied to a person. You can read it, and believe it, if not don't try to be a chirstian. In the bible it says God, will spit out from his mouth Luke-warm believers. Trying to twist what it says, to satifsy a religuous deisre, while mainting homosexuality seems hypocritical to me. (especially when it is so plainly stated in the text)
     

    Gliberty

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    It is pretty clear when it states "A man shal not lay with another man" with lay being the common term for sex, or lay in bed. I never liked the idea of bible applied to a person. You can read it, and believe it, if not don't try to be a chirstian. In the bible it says God, will spit out from his mouth Luke-warm believers. Trying to twist what it says, to satifsy a religuous deisre, while mainting homosexuality seems hypocritical to me. (especially when it is so plainly stated in the text)

    Again, that is an interpretation made by modern men. Here is what the original text translates to literally:

    "And with a male not you male shall
    lie down beds of a woman abomination she".

    This would moreso mean, "if a male, who is not you, is lying down with your woman, then the woman is an abomination."
    Clearly, there has been some derisive alterations to this text throughout the years that has arrived to the text that you have cited.


    Much like in the case of many words in the english dictionary. For instance, the term $lut was used in the 1700's to distinguish a man as unkept in appearance. The term shifted to a woman with an unkept appearance in the 1800's. Then, in the 1900's the term meant a promiscuous woman. That is just one of literally, millions of different words, phrases, or texts that have changed in their meaning through out the years to single out and degrade a particular group of individual. This is called a pejorative shift of language.

    That is why those of us, including myself who are of faith, should read the text carefully in order to preserve the original contents which have been drastically altered through subjective variance of semantics, since we can unjustifiably condemn groups of people based off another person's inaccurate personal beliefs if we are blind followers. That is why non-secular arguments are not the best way of going about advocating a stance; the interpretations are not clear by any means.
     
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    Khawill

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  • I personally wouldn't feel comfortable around homosexuals, but this is because I lived 8 years in the south and as a christian and taught it was wrong.
    Do I care if they get married? No, nobody should it doesn't affect anyone but the people closest to them; and if you don't agree with something that big why do you consider yourself close to them?
    I will not say I have a gay friend, I don't (I never actually met a gay until I moved north and he was a jerk and hung around a chick that was a constant grump).
     

    Gliberty

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    I personally wouldn't feel comfortable around homosexuals, but this is because I lived 8 years in the south and as a christian and taught it was wrong.
    Do I care if they get married? No, nobody should it doesn't affect anyone but the people closest to them; and if you don't agree with something that big why do you consider yourself close to them?
    I will not say I have a gay friend, I don't (I never actually met a gay until I moved north and he was a jerk and hung around a chick that was a constant grump).

    Yeah, I totally get where you are coming from.

    Simply where we are born, who are parents are, what sexual orientation is, what race we are, among other unchangeable characteristics really do dictate a lot of our personality and experiences in life. It's our job to try to objectively view the world from perspectives outside of our own to formulate a more encompassing viewpoint and to question our own beliefs. And if you are uncomfortable around gay people, it is completely understandable, since you haven't been accustomed or acquainted with a person who is openly gay through your upbringing, nor have you made any close friends or possessed any close family members who are openly gay. And yes, sometimes we meet someone who falls within a group, and we make assumptions of all of those who fall in the group based off one example. Although, we should try no to :p

    I do think that it is very objective of you to look past any uncomfortable personal feelings that you have, in order to come to the conclusion that you have no place in dictating how another person conducts their private life, as you would not want someone to dictate your private life in instances where there is no effect upon ourselves or others. This is the way in which to form an 'opinion' rather than proclaiming a 'prejudice'. So props for that ;)
     

    Khawill

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  • The reason I came to the conclusion isn't because of anything special. If I died there are a small handful of people who really care, this is because nobody cares to know who I am unless they meet me (this applies to most other people). If gays get married it should be similar, their marriage shouldn't be anymore widespread then yours or my death. Now death is a bit heavy to talk about but it gets my point across.
    Now obviously famous people are the exception (they are looked up to or otherwise well known even by people they don't know; thus the same applies if they were gay then it would be big, but it shouldnt be big because they are gay, but because they are getting married)
     
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    It is pretty clear when it states "A man shal not lay with another man" with lay being the common term for sex, or lay in bed. I never liked the idea of bible applied to a person. You can read it, and believe it, if not don't try to be a chirstian. In the bible it says God, will spit out from his mouth Luke-warm believers. Trying to twist what it says, to satifsy a religuous deisre, while mainting homosexuality seems hypocritical to me. (especially when it is so plainly stated in the text)

    First of all, why are you, as a Christian, following any of the Leviticus laws, when they were not meant for Christians, but for those of the Jewish faith? Also, if you do adhere to Leviticus laws, why do you not adhere to all of them? Never mind the fact that the verse you are quoting has been so perversely distorted over time that its true meaning has been lost. I can guarantee you that at no point in the bible, either old testament or new, does it condemn homosexuality. There is no verse that you can quote that says homosexuality was deemed a sin during biblical times. And as a gay man, and having these anti-clobber verses thrown in my face for many years, I can guarantee you that I can demonstrate how these verses say nothing of homosexuality. At all.

    Lastly, I'm going to leave you with a quote from a comedian which I feel appropriate:

    "The Bible contains six admonishments to homosexuals and 362 admonishments to heterosexuals. That doesn't mean that God doesn't love heterosexuals. It's just that they need more supervision." ~ Lynn Lavner
     
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    NarutoActor, to counter your quoting Leviticus (which is not meant for Christians but for those of the Jewish faith), I present you with the following to refute your assertions that certain Leviticus verses condemns homosexuality.



    But this is besides the point, for no religious argument can be made to prevent gays from getting married that would be valid in a court of law. No one person's, or group's, religious beliefs can be forced upon another. The U.S., contrary to some, is not a Christian nation. It is a secular nation that celebrates all faiths, and dictates none.

    I find sad that there are still people, despite all the lessons of history (see the fate of the Puritans for an example), who still believe that their beliefs should be forced on others.
     

    droomph

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  • Leviticus 18:22 said:
    And; with-(a)man, you-shall-not-lie'down, (as)beds'of-woman, abomination-she[it].

    Don't sleep with a man like you would a woman, that's weird and unnatural. 

    John 8:2 said:
     
    As yet they-persisted [on]asking, He[Jesus] straightened himself and said unto-them, "The[one of]without-sin of-you(pl) [throw the] before'all-stone on her!"

    When they kept on asking, Jesus stood up and said, "The one without sin, throw the first stone on her!"

    Article Sixteen of the Basic Human Rights said:
    (1) Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.
    (2) Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses.
    (3) The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.

    Article Twelve of the Basic Human Rights said:
    No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.

    First: Homosexuality is wrong. 

    Second: However, unless you are without sin, you have no right to condemn. (ie if you're not Jesus, you can't punish others for sin, only to rebuke.)

    Second-c: Condemning a different sin from yours. 

    Second-c-c: The Pharisees who hadn't committed adultery that day or ever were just as guilty, and had barely ever committed a serious sin. Therefore, if you're not perfect, you have no reason to condemn anyone. 

    Second-c-c-c: the government is an entity, not a person. 

    Second-c-c-c-c: So were the multiple Pharisees in the story.

    Third: What is sin? Sin is human, nobody is perfect and will stumble. Sin is hereditary, so even a perfect person is sinful because of Adam and Eve. Only through Jesus are we saved, and we should not accomplish what we can't. (Basis of Christianity)

    Fourth: Nobody should have to deal with interference with personal life, and marriage is a basic human right.

    Fourth-c: How do I know that the UN is trustworthy?

    Fourth-c-c: This is not the current runnings of the UN: They were decided on by the free world. If we, who live in the free world, don't live up to the expectations we put up, that is extremely hypocritical. Hypocrisy is a major sin in religion, and if we are to treat this as a religious thing (ie Christian debate), we must uphold our morals.

    Therefore: It is wrong, but you are wrong, and if you are wrong, you can't keep basic rights away from those who do wrong as punishment for doing wrong, for that is hypocrisy. Religiously and morally, we should allow it, but not condone it.

    Sources:
    http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/index.shtml
    http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Hebrew_Index.htm
    http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Greek_Index.htm
    My head
     
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    First: Homosexuality is wrong.

    By whose standard? And by what authority is given that all persons shall be governed under that assertion?

    The problem with this assertion is that it is not one that is universally shared. Therefore, in order to make valid that claim, all must be made to conform. I assert that it is just as wrong for people to be gay as it is for them to be left handed. That is to say, to be gay is a natural expression of human sexuality, it is innate, and any attempts to suppress such a fundamental part of our being is to cause real harm.
     
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    droomph

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  • By whose standard? And by what authority is given that all persons shall be governed under that assertion?

    The problem with this assertion is that it is not one that is universally shared. Therefore, in order to make valid that claim, all must be made to conform. I assert that it is just as wrong for people to be gay as it is for them to be left handed. That is to say, to be gay is a natural expression of human sexuality, it is innate, and any attempts to suppress such a fundamental part of our being is to cause real harm.

    If you haven't noticed by my usage of Bible passages, I'm saying by Christian standards.

    I am speaking on a level he can understand, so don't tell me I am wrong, because this is the truth to him.
     
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    If you haven't noticed by my usage of Bible passages, I'm saying by Christian standards.

    I am speaking on a level he can understand, so don't tell me I am wrong, because this is the truth to him.

    No, you are quite right. I was in fact attempting to expand on the point you were making. I'm sorry that I did not make that clear.
     
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