New new starters

myrrhman

Challenge God
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    I really am getting tired of the Grass/Fire/Water starters. Why don't they change them?

    Most people say "there's nothing else to change them too, Psychic/Fighting/Dark doesn't work because psychic doesn't effect Dark" but what about Fighting/Flying/Rock? I think there could even be like 6 Pokemon to choose from (the Grass/Fire/Water and Flying/Fighting/Rock) and when you choose one, your rival chooses one that beats it in that group. It would give rise to more variety in the game. And I just see Staraptor being an awesome starter, he doesn't deserve his "common bird evolution" title that he has.
     
    The main problem is probably that Flying is only a secondary type. Sure Bulbasaur had two types, but still. If it was Normal/Flying the elemental Rock-Paper-Scissors wouldn't work.

    The other problem is probably just that they're not that interesting. All of them are primarily physical types and none of them can really launch long distance attacks. Except for some very rare, usually powerful, moves.
     
    The flying/fighting/rock combo WOULD work. I'm trying to think of other "triangles" that would work. The one that came to mind was water/electric/ground, but that doesn't work because of the immunity that ground has to electric. I'm blanking on other triangles that could work.
     
    Myles said:
    The main problem is probably that Flying is only a secondary type. Sure Bulbasaur had two types, but still. If it was Normal/Flying the elemental Rock-Paper-Scissors wouldn't work.
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    Then they can add another type for the flying starter. Water, Grass, Electric, and Dragon are all neutrally weak to both Fighting and Rock, and Electric and Dragon are neutral as far as attack goes. Make it one of them.

    Which brings me to another point. Why is everyone so uncomfortable with a Dragon starter. Some people say Charizard should be changed to Dragon, and then everyone is like "OH NO HE'S GONNA BE TOO POWERFUL!!! I personally love Dragon and Ice attacks, so its not like I don't have anything super effective against it. And it only resists four types; Fire, Water, Electric, and Grass. Most Water types can learn Ice Attacks, so you can hardly count them. That's really pretty much only 3 types that it resists. Just look at how Steel is resistant to so many things, and tell me how Empoleon exists because of that logic...

    Myles said:
    The other problem is probably just that they're not that interesting. All of them are primarily physical types and none of them can really launch long distance attacks. Except for some very rare, usually powerful, moves.
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    You can almost flip that, though. Grass, Water, and Fire are primarily special, and proportionally there aren't that many physical attacks. The list is:

    Grass: Bullet Seed, Leaf Blade, Needle Arm, Power Whip, Razor Leaf, Seed Bomb, Vine Whip, Wood Hammer

    Fire: Blaze Kick, Fire Fang, Fire Punch, Flame Wheel, Flare Blitz, Sacred Fire

    Water: Aqua Jet, Aqua Tail, Clamp, Crabhammer, Dive, Waterfall

    For Grass, 2 out of 8 of them (Wood Hammer, Power Whip) fall into the category of rare and powerful. Leaf Blade and Needle Arm both before fourth generation, only existed as signature moves of specific families of Pokemon. Almost half of them didn't come into existence until fourth gen.

    Fire has 2/6 Rare Moves (Blaze Kick and Sacred Fire), one of them being legendary exclusive. 2/6 of them came in the 4th gen.

    Water has 2/6 Rare Moves (Clamp and Crabhammer) and 2/6 that come from 4th gen.

    Why can't you just introduce a few more special Rock and Fighting moves (Flying is almost good with 5, and 4 of them are not Aeroblast) and it would be almost even. They've proven that they'll go against the norm with the normal three elements recently.

    BleuVII said:
    The flying/fighting/rock combo WOULD work. I'm trying to think of other "triangles" that would work. The one that came to mind was water/electric/ground, but that doesn't work because of the immunity that ground has to electric. I'm blanking on other triangles that could work.
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    I think that might be the only other triangle that could work with solo types, but it would mean that they would have to make flying its own type for the first time ever. However, I'm sure they could find quite a few more with dual types.
     
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    Well, Dragon is overpowered. Almost all Dragon types are OU or Uber, and for a reason. Steel has a lot of resistances, but it also has a lot of weaknesses. Dragon is only weak to Ice and itself.
     
    Myles said:
    Well, Dragon is overpowered. Almost all Dragon types are OU or Uber, and for a reason. Steel has a lot of resistances, but it also has a lot of weaknesses. Dragon is only weak to Ice and itself.
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    Dragon is OU or Uber because historically, dragons have been the most powerful pokemon that the creators have created. You can't use this logic though, because historically, the starters are strictly Grass/Fire/Water, and we're changing that around for this scenario. Old Pokemon don't mean anything here, if the argument is that the Dragons are too powerful, then make the Pokemon less powerful. And besides, 1/4 of the previous starters are OU (Empoleon, Infernape, and Swampert) so making one more won't be groundbreaking.

    If you look at it, there are actually quite a few types that only have two weaknesses. Normal, Water, Electric, Fighting, Poison, Bug, Ghost, and Dark all have either 1 or 2 weaknesses. And yet water is a starting type. Sure it isn't super effective against itself, but then again, Dragon is the only thing that Dragon is super effective against, and water is super effective against three types.
     
    Dragon is resistant to some of the most common in-game attack types. And weak to two of the least common in-game attack types (Ice is considerably more common in the metagame due to the very fact that it is super effective to Dragon). Water is weak to two of the most common in-game attack types.

    Two of those three OU starters came in the same generation that has every single dragon type released being Uber. Dragon is the only type that has non-legendary Ubers (two, to be exact), other then Wobbuffet and Wynaut, but they certainly aren't Uber because of their type.

    Only one Dragon is not OU or Uber (Altaria). Two of three normal dragons are OU (most normal Pokémon aren't OU). Two of three pseudo legendary dragons are Uber (most pseudo legendaries are OU). Six of six legendary dragons are Uber (about 50-50 Ubers and non-Ubers). So Dragons are disproportionate of other Pokémon, it's not just because they're all pseudo legendary or something.
     
    You're basing this entire discussion on competitive battles. Which it shouldn't be. Competitive battlers are going to find the strongest Pokemon. If the game developers don't want a starter being in that group, then they can tone it down. It's not impossible, they can make the starter more like Altaria, and I wouldn't mind having Altaria on my team. It's not like Altaria is comparable to Caterpie or anything. I'm saying what if they made a starter that was part dragon that wasn't overpowered.

    And besides, that was one of the two choices. They could make the starter Electric/Flying.
     
    myrrhman said:
    You're basing this entire discussion on competitive battles. Which it shouldn't be. Competitive battlers are going to find the strongest Pokemon.
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    The entire first paragraph was about in-game. So I don't know where you got that from.

    myrrhman said:
    If the game developers don't want a starter being in that group, then they can tone it down. It's not impossible, they can make the starter more like Altaria, and I wouldn't mind having Altaria on my team. It's not like Altaria is comparable to Caterpie or anything. I'm saying what if they made a starter that was part dragon that wasn't overpowered.
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    Wasn't the idea making Charizard Fire/Dragon? That's what you said.
     
    I was referencing Charizard as an example of one of the starters. I'm talking about completely changing the types for the next (sixth) generation. You are saying "you can't have a dragon starter because dragons are too overpowered." And I'm saying that you can give it drawbacks. For one, a Dragon/Flying starter would be neutral to Electric moves, while being doubly resistant to Grass. Secondly, if grass is "one of the four most common in game attack types" then change that in the game. Insert more Dragon Tamers and less swimmers. It wouldn't be that hard to make a game where Dragon Pokemon get the shaft.

    Also, you could make the starter electric/flying.
     
    Fire, Grass, and water are basic types. Therefore they are the starters type. :P
     
    Doesn't work. Bug is Neutral when attacking rock, and rock is neutral when attacking grass. I'm telling you, the only single types that work are fire water grass and flying rock fighting.
     
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