Pokédex Changes

[TheAliveTrain]

So, as you may have noticed, through this bunch of years that Pokémon exists, new features and Pokémon have been added. We are now near the end of the 4th generation of Pokémon. And when I get to play my Pokémon Pearl, as I have nothing to do there I go to re-organize the boxes or read Pokedex entries.

And I went up with this. I think the Pokédex needs to be re-organized. *mad face*


And this is why:
First of all, I don't think there are 493 at all. For me, there are just 492. Nidoran is only one Pokémon, with gender differences. When you say Nidoran, do you say male or female after that? When someone is talking about Nidoran, how do you know which one is? They should be one species, like Burmy (evolves depending on gender).
You will say that their Dex entries say that they have genetical differences. Every Pokémon who has gender differences has genetical differences. Quite logical.
Sure I bet Nintendo does agree with me, but they just won't mess up with the Pokédex and loose one Pokémon. They are trying to uncover this with dex entries, because they were not predicting that they would have gender differences in prior generations.

Also about gender evolution, some Pokémon like Gardevoir and Mr.Mime should be a specific gender Pokémon, Female and Male, specificaly. Although, this goes against many people which I believe liking to have a male Gardevoir or a female Mr.Mime, so I wouldn't change anything here.



This is not the only reason. I think it is also weird to have for istance, the Pokémon number 114 (Tangela) having its evolution like 300 numbers after it (465, Tangrowth). And this is just an example. Now, like 40% of the Pokémon Lines are messed up, separated by huge numbers, generations.

This could be fixed simply re-organizing the Pokédex. The Johto dex was a re-organization of the original dex, if you haven't noticed. It included all 251 Pokémon, with their evolution lines right placed as types were.
And please, don't say that it is in order of discovery. It is wrong. Neither in the anime or games is said that a new "generation" has been discovered, but some Pokémon like Rotom.
It is only said on GenIV games about some Pokémon evolutions, the ones that come after Palkia on Platinum Dex.
It is, anyway, right to say that they are placed in order of creation.




But why the hell I came up with this? Because our 493rd Pokémon is the God Pokémon. Further generations will mess even more the National Dex up. It makes no sense to have the God Pokémon in the middle (not even the middle) of the National Dex.
You may say, it is a Pokémon like others, it can be anywhere.
No, it is not a Pokémon like others. Do you think that legends come up at the end of a dex randomly? No they are legends. And now we have the god Pokémon. It should be placed in the start/end (First Pokémon ever/The strongest|God Pokémon).

And what's the point of this? I'd like to know your opinion. If you agree or not, and if you could change, what would you do.

 

[PokeMangaObsessed]

Ah, yes, I think that Gardevoir should only be a female, and Mr. Mime, a male. I also think that Kirlia should only be a female, but then you can't get the new Gallade.

I also think that the evolutions should go with each other. It irritates me how I have sift through a hundred pages through my Pokedex book to find an evolution.

The legendaries should be grouped together too.

 

[Silhouette]

So, as you may have noticed, through this bunch of years that Pokémon exists, new features and Pokémon have been added. We are now near the end of the 4th generation of Pokémon. And when I get to play my Pokémon Pearl, as I have nothing to do there I go to re-organize the boxes or read Pokedex entries.

And I went up with this. I think the Pokédex needs to be re-organized. *mad face*


And this is why:
First of all, I don't think there are 493 at all. For me, there are just 492. Nidoran is only one Pokémon, with gender differences.
-Well, you have to remember that when RBY came out, it didn't specify Male or Female Pokemon. I see your point here, though. I suppose.

When you say Nidoran, do you say male or female after that?
-Yup

When someone is talking about Nidoran, how do you know which one is? They should be one species, like Burmy (evolves depending on gender).
You will say that their Dex entries say that they have genetical differences. Every Pokémon who has gender differences has genetical differences. Quite logical.
Sure I bet Nintendo does agree with me, but they just won't mess up with the Pokédex and loose one Pokémon. They are trying to uncover this with dex entries, because they were not predicting that they would have gender differences in prior generations.

Also about gender evolution, some Pokémon like Gardevoir and Mr.Mime should be a specific gender Pokémon, Female and Male, specificaly. Although, this goes against many people which I believe liking to have a male Gardevoir or a female Mr.Mime
-lol

, so I wouldn't change anything here.



This is not the only reason. I think it is also weird to have for istance, the Pokémon number 114 (Tangela) having its evolution like 300 numbers after it (465, Tangrowth). And this is just an example. Now, like 40% of the Pokémon Lines are messed up, separated by huge numbers, generations.

This could be fixed simply re-organizing the Pokédex. The Johto dex was a re-organization of the original dex, if you haven't noticed. It included all 251 Pokémon, with their evolution lines right placed as types were.
-I missed this. :(

And please, don't say that it is in order of discovery. It is wrong. Neither in the anime or games is said that a new "generation" has been discovered, but some Pokémon like Rotom.
It is only said on GenIV games about some Pokémon evolutions, the ones that come after Palkia on Platinum Dex.
It is, anyway, right to say that they are placed in order of creation.




But why the hell I came up with this? Because our 493rd Pokémon is the God Pokémon. Further generations will mess even more the National Dex up. It makes no sense to have the God Pokémon in the middle (not even the middle) of the National Dex.
You may say, it is a Pokémon like others, it can be anywhere.
No, it is not a Pokémon like others. Do you think that legends come up at the end of a dex randomly? No they are legends. And now we have the god Pokémon. It should be placed in the start/end (First Pokémon ever/The strongest|God Pokémon).

And what's the point of this? I'd like to know your opinion. If you agree or not, and if you could change, what would you do.

I bolded some specific comments in the quotes with what I think.

But all-in-all, it might be a good idea to keep the national dex how it is, then have a seperate 'mode' like G/S/C with evolutionary lines. Why keep? Easier to tell Pokémon based on generation as well.

 

[~*!*~Tatsujin Gosuto~*!*~]

Ah, yes, I think that Gardevoir should only be a female, and Mr. Mime, a male. I also think that Kirlia should only be a female, but then you can't get the new Gallade.

I also think that the evolutions should go with each other. It irritates me how I have sift through a hundred pages through my Pokedex book to find an evolution.

The legendaries should be grouped together too.

They aren't going to make Mr. Mime a male because his/her Japanese name doesn't translate to being a male. I dont know why they would name it Mr.Mime, its pretty stupid


:t354:TG

 

[Niprop]

Mime Jr. can die in a fire, I say overhaul the next generation and make Mr. Mime male only with Jynx as it's female counterpart. Also agree with the Gardevoir thing. (But then again, it'd be sort of strange upon generation 4 to generation 5 transferring, so my stance on this is neutral.)

Nidoran was also confusing to me, and I also think that they should just group it up into one pokémon. Now that genderal differences are introduced, they are no longer needed as seperate species. The stat difference might lead to a problem upon merging, though.

 

[I Laugh at your Misfortune!]

Nidoran aren't small differences though, like Venusaur having a seed in its flower or whatever. They are different colours, different shapes, almost completely different Pokemon.

 

[Åzurε]

Hence, they are different pokemon. I'd love to see a comeback of the evolutionary order of the PokeDex, myself. I've even used that as a base for my own reordering of the thing.

 

[Idiot!]

Sadly, many people cannot/will not read Japanese, and therefore do not know Mr Mime's real name is linked to barriers and not mimes or misters.

As for the Pokédex, they'll rearrange it again and again, in cases of Rangers, new generations and such. Zubat can be found in all regions. Tentacool can be found in all main regions. How are they going to fix the ordering?

 

[TheAliveTrain]

Sadly, many people cannot/will not read Japanese, and therefore do not know Mr Mime's real name is linked to barriers and not mimes or misters.

As for the Pokédex, they'll rearrange it again and again, in cases of Rangers, new generations and such. Zubat can be found in all regions. Tentacool can be found in all main regions. How are they going to fix the ordering?

Maybe by types, or at least putting familiar lines together..
And about Nidoran, I guess we can't deny that if they were included on Gen4, there would only be one Nidoran, instead of 2

 

[Åzurε]

Yeah. It'd be a split-evolution path like Burmy, I'd wager. And I believe the word is familial.

 

[JX Valentine]

They are different colours, different shapes, almost completely different Pokemon.

Not to mention if I recall correctly, the lines can't actually breed with each other. While in a sense, this is because of the way the games treat breeding¹, it also just goes to show that they're pretty much two separate species.

Beyond the breeding difficulties, they're two pretty separate Pokémon, even more than in superficial terms. Look at stats and movesets. The base stat pools for both are so different they're not even comparable. Nidoran (f) excels in HP (55, compared to male Nidoran's 46) and defense (52, as opposed to 40), whereas Nidoran (m) excels in attack (57, as opposed to 47) and speed (50, as opposed to 41). It's not just a simple rearranging of numbers in different stats. Those two just don't have the same stats at the root. It functions in part to emphasize that the female is supposed to be the more defensive and resistant one, whereas the male is the more aggressive one. Or something like that anyway. In any case, yes. Not the same stats.

Moreover, movepools. They don't share them. Pretty much at all. Nidoran (f) starts off with Growl and Scratch in Gen IV, whereas Nidoran (m) has Peck and Leer. The two only deviate further from there. (And, yes, you can get them in Gen IV. They're PokéRadar Pokémon. Hence, yes, they were, by all means, included in Gen IV. I'm not sure why you said they weren't, TheAliveTrain. O_o In any case, yes, it's perfectly possible to catch one of each, breed it, and raise the hatchlings to find out how separate their movepools actually are.)

So, yeah. I'd hate to say this, but I really don't think they would have been the same Pokémon in Gen IV, even. They can't breed together, they don't share the same base stats, and they can't even learn the same moves. They're really just separate Pokémon entirely, and any attempt to merge the two will require an overhaul of one or the other, not just a simple merging of 'dex entries.

Also, yes, I do agree that there's no need to change Mr. Mime's gender because it was a bit of translation fail. However, it would be easier and rather nice to do things the Johto way and at least put all of the evolution lines together for a regional 'dex that can then be switched over to the national order.

¹: What I mean is that Nidoran (f) is always female, obviously. However, in breeding, a female-female pairing always produces a female. Because the games tend to see them as separate Pokémon, this means a male Nidoran mating with a female will always produce a female. Of course, the argument is in favor of merging the two lines, so if the games themselves were rectified, the entire breeding argument itself would be a moot point because a female Nidoran would be able to produce male or female Nidoran hatchlings because they'd be the same species. Long story short, this entire footnote is to say the breeding bit is probably only valid the way things are right now, although it is an argument to say that there's plenty of other barriers between the two than just the sprites.

 

[TheAliveTrain]

Not to mention if I recall correctly, the lines can't actually breed with each other. While in a sense, this is because of the way the games treat breeding¹, it also just goes to show that they're pretty much two separate species.

Beyond the breeding difficulties, they're two pretty separate Pokémon, even more than in superficial terms. Look at stats and movesets. The base stat pools for both are so different they're not even comparable. Nidoran (f) excels in HP (55, compared to male Nidoran's 46) and defense (52, as opposed to 40), whereas Nidoran (m) excels in attack (57, as opposed to 47) and speed (50, as opposed to 41). It's not just a simple rearranging of numbers in different stats. Those two just don't have the same stats at the root. It functions in part to emphasize that the female is supposed to be the more defensive and resistant one, whereas the male is the more aggressive one. Or something like that anyway. In any case, yes. Not the same stats.

Moreover, movepools. They don't share them. Pretty much at all. Nidoran (f) starts off with Growl and Scratch in Gen IV, whereas Nidoran (m) has Peck and Leer. The two only deviate further from there. (And, yes, you can get them in Gen IV. They're PokéRadar Pokémon. Hence, yes, they were, by all means, included in Gen IV. I'm not sure why you said they weren't, TheAliveTrain. O_o In any case, yes, it's perfectly possible to catch one of each, breed it, and raise the hatchlings to find out how separate their movepools actually are.)

So, yeah. I'd hate to say this, but I really don't think they would have been the same Pokémon in Gen IV, even. They can't breed together, they don't share the same base stats, and they can't even learn the same moves. They're really just separate Pokémon entirely, and any attempt to merge the two will require an overhaul of one or the other, not just a simple merging of 'dex entries.

Also, yes, I do agree that there's no need to change Mr. Mime's gender because it was a bit of translation fail. However, it would be easier and rather nice to do things the Johto way and at least put all of the evolution lines together for a regional 'dex that can then be switched over to the national order.

¹: What I mean is that Nidoran (f) is always female, obviously. However, in breeding, a female-female pairing always produces a female. Because the games tend to see them as separate Pokémon, this means a male Nidoran mating with a female will always produce a female. Of course, the argument is in favor of merging the two lines, so if the games themselves were rectified, the entire breeding argument itself would be a moot point because a female Nidoran would be able to produce male or female Nidoran hatchlings because they'd be the same species. Long story short, this entire footnote is to say the breeding bit is probably only valid the way things are right now, although it is an argument to say that there's plenty of other barriers between the two than just the sprites.

When I said that, I meant if they were Pokémon originally created on GenerationIV, as if they were from the last gen. Obviously they are included in all games, since they are from generationI.
What was I also trying to point, is that Nintendo did such stuff in the past generations that now is hard (if not impossible in certain ways, as if I'm not wrong they can't change the way they want) to solve, as wrongly translating Mr.Mimes name, separating both genders of Nidoran, and so on.

What am I saying is also applied to movepools, as they possibly (I'm speculating) come from the first gen, they were not changed since then.

 

[JX Valentine]

When I said that, I meant if they were Pokémon originally created on GenerationIV, as if they were from the last gen. Obviously they are included in all games, since they are from generationI.
What was I also trying to point, is that Nintendo did such stuff in the past generations that now is hard (if not impossible in certain ways, as if I'm not wrong they can't change the way they want) to solve, as wrongly translating Mr.Mimes name, separating both genders of Nidoran, and so on.

What am I saying is also applied to movepools, as they possibly (I'm speculating) come from the first gen, they were not changed since then.

Now I understand what you're getting at, but even then, I'm a bit hesitant to say that this was entirely because of the fact that they did things differently in Gen I. While it's true that the two are gendered the way they are because Gen I otherwise lacked genders, the two seem to be set up to be male-female counterparts the way Volbeat and Illumise are. Stats are completely different (to the point where their stat average isn't even the same), and the movepool is set up in a way that implies the Pokémon take advantage of completely different body structures. I mean, at level 7 Nidoran F learns Tail Whip for lowering defense (and defending herself), while Nidoran M learns Focus Energy for pumping himself up (to land harder hits). Then, you've got Nidoran F's Bite (taking advantage of her larger teeth) as opposed to Nidoran M's Horn Attack (taking advantage of his larger spines) at level 21. The difference happens again at level 37 with the male's Poison Jab (a spine attack) versus the female's Crunch (teeth attack). And that's just in Gen IV. In that sense, the two movepools aren't entirely capable of being merged because the female's spines are (in the dex) stated to be smaller while the male doesn't seem to have prominent enough teeth.

Maybe in Gen IV, they would have designed the Pokémon so that they didn't differentiate this much, but from what I can tell, Nintendo/GF/whatever intended on having the two be designed differently in order to create a pair of counterparts that take advantage of two different body structures. I'd say it's more like a prototype relationship that appears later on with things like Tauros and Miltank or Volbeat and Illumise than it is two different evolution lines that should have been one.