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Pokemon Tier Discussion/Resource

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I agree with Celestial_okami, Clefable should be moved up to BL. Ooka, 73 base Defense is not low, it's average, and combined with Clefable's high HP, it's enough for Clefable to take a couple of strong physical hits with some EV investment in Defense. Let's not forget that Clefable also has access to Counter (which is legal with Magic Guard, by the way) to deal with those pesky physical attackers. Few unstabed and unboosted fighting moves can take out Clefable in one hit, whereas Counter will be sure to OHKO any physical attacker that thinks it can knock out Clefable. Clefable can also boltbeam and gets access to Softboiled and a notable support movepool which includes Reflect and even Cosmic Power if you want to go with that. Encore is also a nifty move that Clefable can learn.
 
I thought that average was 80.
 
Clefable is and always will be an average Pokemon. Which is why it's UU and not NU. BL = Pokemon that aren't strong enough for OU, but are used a lot. Clefable isn't used a lot.
 
Actually Ooka, you have it backwards. BL is pokemon too strong for UU which AREN'T used a lot in OU. Also, calling Clefable average is quite wrong. Its stats may be 'average' in that none are exceptional but the number of uniquely different movesets it can sport is ridiculous. You could make a team of Clefable and have each fill a different position. Weather changing / Gravity using, counter-sashing, special attacking, physical attacking, defensive wall, Encore, status, and support all on one pokemon? When was the last time you saw that? Lets not forget that ridiculously good ability either.

Also, I wasn't arguing that Clefable should be BL, as I haven't enough UU battle experience to really justify doing that. I was just giving some examples of pokemon which are in debate.
 
Well, I use a Clefable myself on Netbattle, and I know you may say you don't have as many options in that Generation, but again, no access to Shoddy.

Also, a Physical Attacking Clefable doesn't work. I tried it....
 
"I don't mean to be disrespectful, but it seems to me that either you clearly don't understand the difference between OU and BL or I am sorely mistaken in my interpretation of your intentions. The only difference between BL and OU is use not power, and the whole point of BL's existence is to separate pokemon from the UU tier. I severely doubt that whether a pokemon is used enough in the metagame to be BL or OU is that important to you.

One person's excellent explanation of BL's relation to OU - "Powerful pokemon which aren't popular right now."

As for the pokemon you mentioned, I believe that at Kangaskhan's position in UU is being considered at Smogon."

None taken. I guess I REALLY suck at explaining myself :(

I get the whole tier thing-ubers are ...ubers :P, too powerful for standards, and BL are just pokemon that are too powerful for UU but don't see much use in OU play. I get that...though I think BL is a USELESS tier now that they are allowed in UUs. seriously, the entire point is to keep them from destroying the UU metagame, and having all these BL/UU teams I saee popping up in S&M with milotic, claydol, and tauros just totally defeat the purpose of the tier and destroy UUs, which is why I only do UU play in ADV now.

Seriously, BL pokemon can compete very well in OUs, and since BL is measured by two things (1. If they are too powerful for UUs, and 2. Their usage in standards), using them in UUs is just no. Seriously, powerful pokemon that don't see usage in UU play...think about it. Let's say Gyarados lost ALL popularity and just fell off the face of the earth. It would fall to BL and then be able to be used in UU play? Um, we have enough trouble getting OU pokemon to counter that thing.

Sorry, just a mini rant I had to go on.

Honestly, I don't really see the point of BL anymore, but if you wish to keep the tier up, be my guest.

BTW, tauros and ambipom see about the same use and have about the same power, so I just don't see how them being in different tiers would be a logical thing :P
 
Anti-Pop Culture Warrior 13 said:
None taken. I guess I REALLY suck at explaining myself :(

I get the whole tier thing-ubers are ...ubers :P, too powerful for standards, and BL are just pokemon that are too powerful for UU but don't see much use in OU play. I get that...though I think BL is a USELESS tier now that they are allowed in UUs. seriously, the entire point is to keep them from destroying the UU metagame, and having all these BL/UU teams I saee popping up in S&M with milotic, claydol, and tauros just totally defeat the purpose of the tier and destroy UUs, which is why I only do UU play in ADV now.

Seriously, BL pokemon can compete very well in OUs, and since BL is measured by two things (1. If they are too powerful for UUs, and 2. Their usage in standards), using them in UUs is just no. Seriously, powerful pokemon that don't see usage in UU play...think about it. Let's say Gyarados lost ALL popularity and just fell off the face of the earth. It would fall to BL and then be able to be used in UU play? Um, we have enough trouble getting OU pokemon to counter that thing.

Sorry, just a mini rant I had to go on.

Honestly, I don't really see the point of BL anymore, but if you wish to keep the tier up, be my guest.

BTW, tauros and ambipom see about the same use and have about the same power, so I just don't see how them being in different tiers would be a logical thing :P
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Your argument is really to the point actually, and people saying that they "want a BL/UU battle" its kind of a pet peeve of mine. People asking for BL/UU battles probably don't have a good understanding of the tiers because BL and UU are meant to be separate! BL isn't to be included in UU so you are absolutely right to be confused when people (probably ignorantly) try to mix them, but really BL exists for a reason and a lot of people just don't understand it.
 
(this is Ooka speaking)

Oh, I guess that's why you acted a little distant when I asked for a BL/UU battle, although I just wanted to inform you that I only asked because before I competitive battled, I would always watch videos on youtube and the titles always contained BL/UU so I figured that was just a way to ask for another type of battle. Of course your explanation makes sence, you don't see many people bringing Ubers and OU mixed do you XD. Well, like I said, your argument makes sense.

(Back to Kenny)
 
Yes, BL is to keep pokemon too powerful for UUs away. Ambipom wrecks havoc in OUs, being a BL pokemon (as it sees the same use as Tauros, which isn't much) it would clean house in UUs.

Actually ,I remember a UU team that had Claydol and Milotic on it. UU isn't just mini-OUs, it is its own separate metagame and people need to realize that.

So yeah. If I see anything, I'll point it out.

EDIT: I have a few I missed. How in the world are Mantine and Probopass BL? Um, both are beatable in UUs easily. I love Mantine, but it is UU for a reason...or it SHOULD be UU. Pushing highly used UUs to BL is only ruining the UU metagame, not helping it.
 
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I'm sure a Life Orbed Arbok would OHKO, if not 2HKO both of those with Thunder Fang and Earthquake. And it's NU.
 
Ooka said:
I'm sure a Life Orbed Arbok would OHKO, if not 2HKO both of those with Thunder Fang and Earthquake. And it's NU.
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That is kind of what I'm saying :P Moving them up to BL is just no.

Seriously, this list just has some glaring flaws, that being one of them. All of the upper UUs have been moved to BL for no reason. Seriously, how in the world did all the UUs end up in BL?
 
Well, like I said, this list came straight from Marriland. You can go have a look there if you'd like, although I warn you, Marriland=Phail....

Maybe they consider Probopass' high special defense, and sandstorm boost. But I have no idea what's up with Mantine.
 
Smogon places Arbok, Probopass, and Mantine at UU, not BL.

Although admittedly the Smogon tier list combines UU and NU, with so few people playing NU (read: none?) it probably isn't an issue.
 
Ooka said:
Well, like I said, this list came straight from Marriland. You can go have a look there if you'd like, although I warn you, Marriland=Phail....

Maybe they consider Probopass' high special defense, and sandstorm boost. But I have no idea what's up with Mantine.
Click to expand...

I'd be more than happy to take this and make common sense edits (like Mantine) and move those to their proper places (or anybody, I don't care, as long as it's fixed). And seriously, there are so many UUs that can own probopass.

If somebody would make these common sense changes *cough mantine cough,* that would really add to the quality of this list.

Moral of the stroy: copying from other websites is meh, but obviously Marriland is the last place to look for this kind of stuff. lol

Really too tired to think though, I'll edit this post out soon with some thoughts on what should be moved and whatnot...

EDIT: Celestial, just to point out that Smogon's tier list is by far the move accurate I've seen so far. Maybe looking at that as reference would be a good idea, as the tiers are pretty accurate there.
 
Could somebody please tell me how Luxray, Toxicroak, nintales, and raichu are BL? No way they're too powerful for UU, bring them back down.
 
Ninetales I understand; Hypnosis and Nasty Plot is a wonderful combo on it. Raichu just isn't quick enough, and although Luxray has downed some OU dragons with its Scarf'd Ice Fang, its moveset is just too weak unless it has X4 over some things. Toxicroak would need more speed.

I'm not a tier expert, nor do I care to be. I just use pokemon, play, and have fun. I don't like to get too technical, but EV training and IV searching is what I must do to stay with competitive edges, then I suppose I must.
 
Alright, I'm going to go make some changes, and I'll list them so if any of you guys see anything you want me to change afterwards, tell me.
 
Houndoom = BL, it would wreck UUs.

Surprised Absol and Linoone are BL, no way are those things too powerful for UU. Looks better, but still needs a little touching up ;)

EDIT: Tentacruel is UU all the way.
 
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