Pro choice or pro life?

[Ripper]

It's called science, and it's perfectly possible to detect brain activity. By the fourteenth week, the fetus has feeling throughout its entire body. Babies don't just magically start feeling things once they're born, they're just as alive while in the womb as they are outside of it. Neurosurgeons have stated that a partial birth abortion may be the most agonizing experience an infant can have. Try reading this, the authors can explain it better than I can.

I wasn't talking about waiting 14 weeks. That is wrong.

To clarify, abortion should be done ASAP.

 

[s0nido]

It all depends on circumstances. I don't support pre-marital sex or extra-marital sex, so anything that goes wrong is your fault. If you do have a baby when you are not ready to, just nurture it first, then give it away to one of those places. It was your problem if you got into a mess with your girlfriend or someone else, so you should be the one to look after the baby.

But if a girl was raped and she got pregnant from that, well, she should have an abortion, then. It wouldn't be fair for her to look after something she didn't want.

Also, if the child will turn out deformed and will live a life of suffering, the pregancy should be aborted. It would mean a hard and painful life for the child, and it wouldn't be right for the parents to live with that pain in them.

But this is a human life we are talking about, so we shouldn't be quick in our decisions.

 

[Cherrim]

If I were to be raped, I'm preeeeetty sure I wouldn't want a constant reminder every. single. day. for about 9+ months. It would be traumatizing enough without having to carry around and nurture a baby I don't even want and that would only remind me of it. I'm pretty sure that would be just horrible for my mental health. Sure, I could put it up for adoption but uh... yeah that's not gonna get me my 9 months back. And pregnancy isn't, from what I've heard, a lot of fun. Yeah, it's selfish but hey--my body. I'd like to have control over it as much as possible. :) And I do realize the actual likelihood of getting pregnant because of rape and whatnot isn't very high but the chance is there all the same.

As for an abortion itself, there's tons of trauma with that too. I hate saying terms like this but I don't know anyone personally who's had an abortion so... a friend of a friend of mine had one and my friend says she's still traumatized by it. She regrets it even though it was the "right thing" at the time. She was a heavy drug or alcohol (or both?) user and because of her unhealthiness the baby probably would have been very unhealthy and it wasn't a very good situation, etc. But it's not like the people who go in for abortions--be it because of rape, incest, unprotected sex, etc.--come out all happy with the whole ordeal. They're not thinking "yes, I don't have to have that stupid baby!" It's not a lightly-made decision. Anyone who makes that choice likely thinks long and hard about it. Taking that choice from someone--forcing a woman to carry a baby she doesn't want, that wasn't her choice to conceive... I just don't like that. I can respect not wanting to take a life but until the government declares that a baby is a baby from the moment of conception, it's legal in my eyes and thus the choice should be there.

Besides, if they properly legalize it, it can be regulated more easily à la table that Ray linked to. It's just no one wants to touch the subject at all. I'd love to see abortion made fully legal with constraints: anyone underage needs full consent of their guardians to go through with it, it can only be done up to a certain point and after that the baby must be carried to term, etc. At the same time, the world really needs better birth control education (and maybe better availability of birth control to those underage). It might curb some of those people we all seem to mention having problems with--the ones who have unprotected sex and drop responsibility by getting an abortion when they inevitably get knocked up. But the rest of them with "legitimate" reasons for an abortion as people seem to be pointing out? Yeah, I'd like for them to have their choice.

And to the people saying if a woman gets raped, that was God's will for her or something to that extent? If you're taking it that way and twisting a human's free will so that it's manipulated like that by God (since it would've been the rapist's "free will" that caused it) then how can you say it wasn't God's will that the child was aborted? I'm probably going to get a "yeah but years of trauma != death" kind of answer so I dunno why I'm asking, really, but I don't see the basic difference at all to be honest.

 

[TRIFORCE89]

I can respect not wanting to take a life but until the government declares that a baby is a baby from the moment of conception, it's legal in my eyes and thus the choice should be there.

While that is true and I agree, I don't think that's the best of reasoning. There have been many minorities and groups in the past that weren't considered to be legal persons at one point. I don't think that would justify the killing of those people :\

 

[I Laugh at your Misfortune!]

I agreed with almost all of what Lightning said:

I'd love to see abortion made fully legal with constraints: anyone underage needs full consent of their guardians to go through with it,

This, I don't necessarily agree with. What if we have the rape scenario and while the mother is pro-choice, her parents are devout, fundamental Catholics? Most people would say: 'let her have the abortion' but because her parents are dedicated to Pro-life, the decision has been made for her. I can see a serious problem arising from this. Granted, its unlikely, but it is a very compromising situation.

 

[TRIFORCE89]

I agreed with almost all of what Lightning said:



This, I don't necessarily agree with. What if we have the rape scenario and while the mother is pro-choice, her parents are devout, fundamental Catholics? Most people would say: 'let her have the abortion' but because her parents are dedicated to Pro-life, the decision has been made for her. I can see a serious problem arising from this. Granted, its unlikely, but it is a very compromising situation.

Then it's would be a no go. If you're underage then you're your parents responsibility.

Maybe if they make it match the age of consent, then the parents wouldn't be involved. But, I'm pretty sure patient-doctor confidentiality includes the parents until you're of legal age.

 

[Neety]

Yeah, I think it does, because while it's in one way 'confidential' if an underage girl gets pregnant there's a law that doctors are responsible for the wellbeing of a minor.

Personally, I wouldn't abort if I was the one carrying the child, even if I was raped, but that's only because that's my belief, also I have a condition wherein my fertility would be compromised if I had an abortion. I think under what I would call exceptional circumstances for example if a woman was raped or the child would be born severely disabled to the point where their existence would be full of needless suffering, rape is an option. If a girl is unfortunate enough to fall pregnant without planning then I don't think abortion should be viewed as the 'easy way out'.

 

[doesn't matter]

Hey who changed the tread title? Nice job (b'-')b

Human childbirth is comparatively dangerous.
I would be very aprehensive.

No it's not. In fact, having an abortion, which is an invasive and unnatural procedure, is much more life threatening than carrying a baby to full term. You can hemorrhage, get an infection from the procedure, or even become sterile. Furthermore, every abortion a woman has before her first full-term pregnancy is linked to increasing her chances of breast cancer.

In addition, you cannot forget the dangerous after affects of post-abortion syndrome, and while such a condition is comparable to post-natal depression, those suffering from PAS don't often get the help they need as abortion chambers don't provide it.

Why 'do' you care for that life? Because the mother wants to "kill" it? Because you think it should have some sort of fighting chance? Another 'why' question, why do you get to decide for someone else if they should put themselves through the months of pregnancy? The fact is you are not that person and you cannot decide for them, the lack of choice is that of saying "we control you and your body".

No, by that logic it would be "doctors cannot treat disease unless they are able to get them", he did not say "only pregnant women and mothers should decide", he said "only those who are able to get pregnant should decide".

Because a life is a life. I'm against killing, and I'm arguing for the rights of the unborn child, who by your logic, can be killed at any time through out the pregnancy in any number of ways, such as having their limbs torn off piece by piece while still inside the womb. Pleasant, huh?

ahaha, touché. But even so:

1. Most involved in the pro-life movement are in fact, women.
2. Men have to be involved. Fathers, politicians, doctors, teachers, people. Abortion concerns the life of another human being like ourselves (well, at least half of the unborn children). This does involve men.

Well, does that not put you in the same position as someone who says abortions should never, ever happen, under any circumstances. i have the smae thing to say to both parties - the woman is the one who is pregnant, stop telling her what to do. Dragging someone to an abortion clinic and forcing them to abort their baby is completely morally wrong.

Just because we're pro-life doesn't mean we don't allow exceptions. If the mother's life is in danger and the only way to save her is to abort the unborn child, then it's better to do that than to have them both die.

If I were to be raped, I'm preeeeetty sure I wouldn't want a constant reminder every. single. day. for about 9+ months. It would be traumatizing enough without having to carry around and nurture a baby I don't even want and that would only remind me of it. I'm pretty sure that would be just horrible for my mental health. Sure, I could put it up for adoption but uh... yeah that's not gonna get me my 9 months back. And pregnancy isn't, from what I've heard, a lot of fun. Yeah, it's selfish but hey--my body. I'd like to have control over it as much as possible. :) And I do realize the actual likelihood of getting pregnant because of rape and whatnot isn't very high but the chance is there all the same.

As for an abortion itself, there's tons of trauma with that too. I hate saying terms like this but I don't know anyone personally who's had an abortion so... a friend of a friend of mine had one and my friend says she's still traumatized by it. She regrets it even though it was the "right thing" at the time. She was a heavy drug or alcohol (or both?) user and because of her unhealthiness the baby probably would have been very unhealthy and it wasn't a very good situation, etc. But it's not like the people who go in for abortions--be it because of rape, incest, unprotected sex, etc.--come out all happy with the whole ordeal. They're not thinking "yes, I don't have to have that stupid baby!" It's not a lightly-made decision. Anyone who makes that choice likely thinks long and hard about it. Taking that choice from someone--forcing a woman to carry a baby she doesn't want, that wasn't her choice to conceive... I just don't like that. I can respect not wanting to take a life but until the government declares that a baby is a baby from the moment of conception, it's legal in my eyes and thus the choice should be there.

Besides, if they properly legalize it, it can be regulated more easily à la table that Ray linked to. It's just no one wants to touch the subject at all. I'd love to see abortion made fully legal with constraints: anyone underage needs full consent of their guardians to go through with it, it can only be done up to a certain point and after that the baby must be carried to term, etc. At the same time, the world really needs better birth control education (and maybe better availability of birth control to those underage). It might curb some of those people we all seem to mention having problems with--the ones who have unprotected sex and drop responsibility by getting an abortion when they inevitably get knocked up. But the rest of them with "legitimate" reasons for an abortion as people seem to be pointing out? Yeah, I'd like for them to have their choice.

And to the people saying if a woman gets raped, that was God's will for her or something to that extent? If you're taking it that way and twisting a human's free will so that it's manipulated like that by God (since it would've been the rapist's "free will" that caused it) then how can you say it wasn't God's will that the child was aborted? I'm probably going to get a "yeah but years of trauma != death" kind of answer so I dunno why I'm asking, really, but I don't see the basic difference at all to be honest.

I can't really explain it better than these people.

"Interestingly, the pregnant rape victim's chief complaint is not that she is unwillingly pregnant, as bad as the experience is. The critical moment is fleeting in this area. It frequently pulls families together like never before. When women are impregnated through rape, their condition is treated in accordance, as are their families.

"We found this experience is forgotten, replaced by remembering the abortion, because it is what they did." _{M. Uchtman, Director, Suiciders Anonymous, Report to Cincinnati City Council, Sept. 1, 1981}

"In the majority of these cases, the pregnant victim's problems stem more from the trauma of rape than from the pregnancy itself." Mahkorn & Dolan, "Sexual Assault & Pregnancy." _{In New Perspectives on Human Abortion, University Publishers of Amer., 1981, pp. 182-199 239}

As to what factors make it most difficult to continue her pregnancy, the opinions, attitudes, and beliefs of others were most frequently cited; in other words, how her loved ones treated her. _{Mahkorn, "Pregnancy & Sexual Assault." In Psychological Aspects of Abortion, University Publishers of Amer., 1979, pp. 53-72}

What's legally declared a baby in the eyes of the government is a dangerous thing to follow. In Japan a child is not legally born till 72 hours after it comes out of the womb...

It wasn't God's will to cause the event of rape, but it was God's will to have the human life created. It's not that easy to have a child, many married couples try for months with no success, and the likelihood of a rape victim becoming impregnated is at 1 or 2 in a 1000. Some see that as a miracle.

And God doesn't command us to kill, you should know that :)

 

[Clairissa]

Because a life is a life. I'm against killing, and I'm arguing for the rights of the unborn child, who by your logic, can be killed at any time through out the pregnancy in any number of ways, such as having their limbs torn off piece by piece while still inside the womb. Pleasant, huh?

ahaha, touché. But even so:

1. Most involved in the pro-life movement are in fact, women.
2. Men have to be involved. Fathers, politicians, doctors, teachers, people. Abortion concerns the life of another human being like ourselves (well, at least half of the unborn children). This does involve men.

"Oh no I didn't know what happens during an abortion!" Shall I use some PETA arguments? "Do you eat meat? Do you know what happens to animals they SLAUGHTER AND ABUSE?!!!!!!?!????!?!?" (Side-note: I eat meat)
Anyway, not everyone is religious, and not every religion is against abortion, while I'm not going to get into a religious debate, religion should 'never' be used as the reason to be pro-life.
Most involved in pro-choice are women, coincidence?! I think so! Since it effects:
1. Women
2. Women

Men do 'not' have to be involved, just because my husband would want me to have the child when I am not ready does not mean I will go through with it as an example.
If my father wanted me to have the kid and not get an abortion and I still didn't want too, since it's my choice and my body I will get one.
I don't listen to politicians and I'm not friends with any teachers, nor am I in school anymore, but a teacher should have no say in anything that happens to a student (unless the child is abused, but that's another thing), doctors can only tell you the risks of something, they cannot legally tell you that you can't have it done if it's something considered cosmetic unless you have a high chance of death or other complications.

Also, I did not say "at any point" during pregnancy should it be allowed, I never said the time in which an abortion can be preformed should be lengthened, I think it is fine, there is already enough time to decide if you want the child or not. What I am saying, is that if you are not ready for a child, you are not ready to go through labor, you are too young, the pregnancy happened under abhorrent conditions (rape, incest, ect), then abortion is more then acceptable if the mother wants that to happen, the choice should "always" be available for numerous reasons, a big one being someone will always want an abortion, and letting a women go to a doctor instead of a thug in an ally with a coat hanger and vacuum is a great option.

Removal of the option will not end abortions, but it will keep the women who get them much safer then if they were not readily available, nor should your own beliefs be forced on others, but again, I won't get into a religious debate.

 

[doesn't matter]

"Oh no I didn't know what happens during an abortion!" Shall I use some PETA arguments? "Do you eat meat? Do you know what happens to animals they SLAUGHTER AND ABUSE?!!!!!!?!????!?!?" (Side-note: I eat meat)
Anyway, not everyone is religious, and not every religion is against abortion, while I'm not going to get into a religious debate, religion should 'never' be used as the reason to be pro-life.
Most involved in pro-choice are women, coincidence?! I think so! Since it effects:
1. Women
2. Women

Men do 'not' have to be involved, just because my husband would want me to have the child when I am not ready does not mean I will go through with it as an example.
If my father wanted me to have the kid and not get an abortion and I still didn't want too, since it's my choice and my body I will get one.
I don't listen to politicians and I'm not friends with any teachers, nor am I in school anymore, but a teacher should have no say in anything that happens to a student (unless the child is abused, but that's another thing), doctors can only tell you the risks of something, they cannot legally tell you that you can't have it done if it's something considered cosmetic unless you have a high chance of death or other complications.

Also, I did not say "at any point" during pregnancy should it be allowed, I never said the time in which an abortion can be preformed should be lengthened, I think it is fine, there is already enough time to decide if you want the child or not. What I am saying, is that if you are not ready for a child, you are not ready to go through labor, you are too young, the pregnancy happened under abhorrent conditions (rape, incest, ect), then abortion is more then acceptable if the mother wants that to happen, the choice should "always" be available for numerous reasons, a big one being someone will always want an abortion, and letting a women go to a doctor instead of a thug in an ally with a coat hanger and vacuum is a great option.

Removal of the option will not end abortions, but it will keep the women who get them much safer then if they were not readily available, nor should your own beliefs be forced on others, but again, I won't get into a religious debate.

You didn't even quote the part where I mentioned God, so why are you bringing up religion? I mean fair enough, not everyone follows the same faith so in an discussion like this it's pointless. I was only responding to another post, otherwise I wouldn't have brought God into this (cause I know how sensitive some of you pro-abortion folks are).

Oh and unborn children aren't animals. I'll go kill an animal right now, just for funsies, if I could be bothered.

You realise half of the children killed in womb are male, right?

You're making this whole thing about the mother while completely ignoring the child inside. I'm fine with people doing whatever they want with their body, but the child is another body, unique, with their own heartbeat and brainwaves. They react to light, sound, and even the emotions of the mother. Why should anyone be able to kill it? (besides the obvious saving the mother thing)

I'm gonna quote Abraham Lincoln here:
"No one has the right to choose to do what is wrong."

People used to be fine killing their black slaves back in the day, and the situation with abortion is basically the same thing today.

Abortions, even when performed legally, aren't all that safe. Furthermore, mother's aren't warned of the dangers of infection, sterility, hemorrhaging, cancer, increased likelihood of premature birthing or miscarriage in future pregnancies, and post-abortion syndrome. The only change from back-alley abortions is that now you go through the front door. All the dangers remain the same. Deaths didn't spike downwards once abortions were legalised in any nation, such as in the U.S.

Deaths still occurring today however, are now the result of legal abortions. Furthermore, these deaths are either misrepresented or under reported.

And the coathanger stories are all myths.

 

[Clairissa]

You didn't even quote the part where I mentioned God, so why are you bringing up religion? I mean fair enough, not everyone follows the same faith so in an discussion like this it's pointless. I was only responding to another post, otherwise I wouldn't have brought God into this (cause I know how sensitive some of you pro-abortion folks are).

I brought it up because even though what I had in quote from you had nothing to do with it, the rest did.

Oh and unborn children aren't animals. I'll go kill an animal right now, just for funsies, if I could be bothered.

I never said they were, but killing an animal for no reason is still not a good thing to do, both because coming from a pro-lifer it's hypocritical and because killing animals "for fun" outside of hunting is normal considered psychopathic tendencies.

You realise half of the children killed in womb are male, right?

That has anything to do with... What? A fetus is a fetus, the gender has nothing to do with it, if more were women you would have 'less' of a problem with it?

You're making this whole thing about the mother while completely ignoring the child inside. I'm fine with people doing whatever they want with their body, but the child is another body, unique, with their own heartbeat and brainwaves. They react to light, sound, and even the emotions of the mother. Why should anyone be able to kill it? (besides the obvious saving the mother thing)

It's not a child until it's actually moving around, becoming sentient, until then it's pretty much just like fungus or mold, it grows but it doesn't know anything at all.
Go ahead and say "you're calling fetuses fungus!" but a fetus is pretty much a parasite, it gives nothing to the mother while it's inside and siphons nutrients from her, but that's nothing to do with this.

I'm gonna quote Abraham Lincoln here:
"No one has the right to choose to do what is wrong."

People used to be fine killing their black slaves back in the day, and the situation with abortion is basically the same thing today.

No, it's not, if anything the fetus/child makes the parent work more and provide for it, the situation is backwards if you want to use that as an example.

Abortions, even when performed legally, aren't all that safe. Furthermore, mother's aren't warned of the dangers of infection, sterility, hemorrhaging, cancer, increased likelihood of premature birthing or miscarriage in future pregnancies, and post-abortion syndrome. The only change from back-alley abortions is that now you go through the front door. All the dangers remain the same. Deaths didn't spike downwards once abortions were legalised in any nation, such as in the U.S.

Deaths still occurring today however, are now the result of legal abortions. Furthermore, these deaths are either misrepresented or under reported.

And the coathanger stories are all myths.

They do not happen as often as you may think, you gave a graph for reported illegal abortions and not even a source for your own "facts", and coathanger abortions being a myth?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-induced_abortion

Many women actually do panic over the controversies of abortion if they want one and some try to do it themselves, normally leading to death.

 

[Legobricks]

I find this thread title confusing now, explain please.

No it's not.

What it is comparatively dangerous to is the childbirth of other mammals, not abortion procedures.

 

[doesn't matter]

I brought it up because even though what I had in quote from you had nothing to do with it, the rest did.

I never said they were, but killing an animal for no reason is still not a good thing to do, both because coming from a pro-lifer it's hypocritical and because killing animals "for fun" outside of hunting is normal considered psychopathic tendencies.

That has anything to do with... What? A fetus is a fetus, the gender has nothing to do with it, if more were women you would have 'less' of a problem with it?

It's not a child until it's actually moving around, becoming sentient, until then it's pretty much just like fungus or mold, it grows but it doesn't know anything at all.
Go ahead and say "you're calling fetuses fungus!" but a fetus is pretty much a parasite, it gives nothing to the mother while it's inside and siphons nutrients from her, but that's nothing to do with this.

No, it's not, if anything the fetus/child makes the parent work more and provide for it, the situation is backwards if you want to use that as an example.

They do not happen as often as you may think, you gave a graph for reported illegal abortions and not even a source for your own "facts", and coathanger abortions being a myth?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-induced_abortion

Many women actually do panic over the controversies of abortion if they want one and some try to do it themselves, normally leading to death.

You mean the last lines of my post? Sure, cause that summarised my entire post.

An animal != a human. And you meant to say that hunters aren't doing it for fun? Besides, it's irrelevant in this discussion.

Though you're right, I probably wouldn't be able to kill an animal for no reason - but most abortions are done without reason.

No, it's a human, with DNA and a yearning for life. Fungus isn't human. You're not even being scientifically accurate and just use such words to dehumanise the child, making it easier to kill.

Of course the gender wouldn't make a difference, but you're all claiming how gender makes a difference as to who has a say on abortion.

From the moment of fertilisation, the child is alive. It has human DNA. Nothing will be added or removed from. It only depends on it's mother for shelter and food, otherwise it takes care of itself. It just needs time to grow, but even then the baby may still be killed. Ever heard of a partial-birth abortion? Click the spoiler, though I must warn you it is graphic.

Spoiler:

A more recently developed method here is the partial birth abortion, also called "brain suction" or "D&X" methods.

- These are done after 4 or 5 months.

- 80% of babies are normal.

- Most babies are viable.

This is like a breech delivery. The entire infant is delivered except the head. A scissors is jammed into the base of the skull. A tube is inserted into the skull, and the brain is sucked out. The now-dead infant is pulled out. The drawings illustrate this.

The baby's heart begins to beat at 18 days. At 40 days brainwaves can be detected. Organs start to grow 4 weeks after conception. They can start sucking their thumb after 7 weeks, and move even more from there. They can feel pain.

The comparison to slavery is perfectly fair due to the incredible amount of similarities.

That graph was sourced. If you want where I've gotten all my information and arguments from, I've linked it numerous times in the few posts I've made in this thread. This book, which has references all over it. I'd reference more in my posts but it'd just make everything a huge mess and I'd just lose track of my thoughts. PC totally needs a footnoting system.

And you just linked to wikipedia.

It doesn't prove that coathanger abortions actually occurred. Any links to a recorded incident, cause as far as I'm aware there are none.

They panic over the controversies so they jam a coathanger into their body? As retarded as that sounds, maybe it's because they believe abortion is the only choice, meaning they have been grossly misinformed.

I find this thread title confusing now, explain please.

What it is comparatively dangerous to is the childbirth of other mammals, not abortion procedures.

Apparently pro-choice doesn't mean pro-abortion, and anti-abortion makes it seem that wanting a child to live is a negative thing. Though now the poll makes no sense at all.

Makes sense even though maternal deaths have dropped significantly this century. [11 in 100,000 according to WHO].

 

[Cacttus]

Abortion should be up to the person at hand. Think about what goes through a 14 year old's mind when she finds out she's pregnant.

How can I tell my mom ?
Will he be there for me ?
How will I provide for it ?

These are questions that come across a girls mind.

 

[Clairissa]

No, slaves and slavery is not like abortion.
"Go ahead and say "you're calling fetuses fungus!" ", glad you took my advice.
Saying "don't tell people they're going to hell if you get an abortion" is not like saying "you can't enslave a fellow human being".
Also, yearning for life would involve yearning, fetuses are unable to even voice an opinion, or understand what opinion means, making them, essentially, animals, while that may sound hypocritical to the "don't kill animals for no real reason" thing, I only support abortion for legitimate causes, IE, rape, age, financial situation, ect. that would make this "wonderful life" you think it being alive would ensue for the parent, in those cases it wouldn't... Adoption agencies and families are horrible by the way.

I'll be awaiting your next post with the same reworded paragraphs about fetus development, "slavery=abortion" and 'scary' photos of a fetus being ripped out of a uterus.

 

[doesn't matter]

Abortion should be up to the person at hand. Think about what goes through a 14 year old's mind when she finds out she's pregnant.

How can I tell my mom ?
Will he be there for me ?
How will I provide for it ?

These are questions that come across a girls mind.

So instead of waiting for an answer they should just kill the child?

Though the mother may be very supportive.
The father may be very responsible.
There are pregnancy support groups out there.
There are plenty of people willing to adopt a child, even those who are handicapped.

Killing the child should not be a choice (unless her life is in danger). Abortion is just the quick-fix, easy way out that our society today just loves, even though there are dangers.

 

[Deleted member 12729]

I don't think that it matters that the fetus doesn't have "an opinion of its own," but rather the fact that we're still dealing with a form of life. It may not be self-cojcious to the point of which it can decide for itself, but keep in mind that we're still talking about a living thing.

 

[Cacttus]

So instead of waiting for an answer they should just kill the child?

Though the mother may be very supportive.
The father may be very responsible.
There are pregnancy support groups out there.
There are plenty of people willing to adopt a child, even those who are handicapped.

Killing the child should not be a choice (unless her life is in danger). Abortion is just the quick-fix, easy way out that our society today just loves, even though there are dangers.

What if your poor and live in a foster home ?
Imagine he's the one telling you to go ahead with the abortion.
Seeing other young girls struggle with there pregnancies is not support.
They're are also kids already on the earth that need adoption.

It's not human until it develops a brain and our characteristics.

 

[TRIFORCE89]

Of course the gender wouldn't make a difference, but you're all claiming how gender makes a difference as to who has a say on abortion.

I would like the father to have a say in the decision, but that's not always possible or wise. If you're married, yeah he should have a say (she still decides though). If you're young and you find yourself pregnant (I don't think you should abort for such a reason anyway, but whatever) and the father has gone and run off somewhere. Then, no. No say for him. Dude's an ass. Not married, but in a serious relationship, I would say he should be involved.

The baby's heart begins to beat at 18 days. At 40 days brainwaves can be detected. Organs start to grow 4 weeks after conception. They can start sucking their thumb after 7 weeks, and move even more from there. They can feel pain.

Heartbeat and brain development doesn't start until weeks 4-6 of the embryonic cycle. Essential organs start to form around the six week mark to eight weeks.

Most places that allow abortion have the waiting period set between 12 weeks to 24 weeks. That's a long time. I would prefer if the process occurs before heartbeat and brain development, but chances are you're not going to know you're pregnant by then. I would limit it then to before it enters the fetal stage.

Still bad, still a living thing, still human cells. But...I think that's a better window. Two months after having sex.

EDIT: Hey. Half my message disappeared :c Let's fix that...

I live in Canada, so I'm not sure how it is in the States, but... I was under the impression that abortion was legal. With differing rules from state to state (parental notification, consent, waiting period, etc). But, despite that - proper abortion providers are still limited.

Here in Canada, it's legal and the procedure is funded by the provinces (except Quebec and some northern territories), performed in hospitals, and covered under universal health care.

Side note: We're at a point now where we can know the gender of a baby before hand. I fear a little bit, that this plus abortion would lead to selective births if you don't get the gender you want at first. :\

 

[Deleted member 12729]

What if your poor and live in a foster home ?
Imagine he's the one telling you to go ahead with the abortion.
Seeing other young girls struggle with there pregnancies is not support.
They're are also kids already on the earth that need adoption.

It's not human until it develops a brain and our characteristics.

So because it's not human, you think it's okay to take the life out of something?