Required to learn gay history?

[FreakyLocz14]

I am not addressing the middle. Gothitelle has expressed that she is not centrist, she is very much on the right side. She is against me. She does not want to protect LGBT community. IF she stated I have no opinion rather than advocate to prevent discrimination and subsequently, violence toward GLTB people, than I would not have a problem with her. So, yes there is a middle ground how may not support gay people, yet not hinder gay people. She along with others like her hinder efforts to live equal lives.

Your last post that I was adressing was a good example. You were stating that because she doesn't agree with you on this issue, she must be an advocate for violence against gays. This is what we in college call a logical fallacy. It's a personal attack rather than an attack on her argument.

 

[-ty-]

Someone else understands!

I understand trying to shed light, but to put it to a point where you are forcing your views on me, not right.

Really? I want people who are half black like you to not be persecuted. Why can't you do the same for me? I am for preventing crimes against black people yet you seem opposed to prevent crimes against gay people! I shouldn't have to force you to believe that I should be protected like you.

Same with marriage. I believe that you should have the wedding of your dreams. And I think that you should be able to wish me the same. Without calling it a sin.

Therefore you and your opinions are against me and my opinions are promoting you happiness in life. That is the injustice. If I advocated against biracial marriages and it was illegal for you to get married would you say that I am against you? Would you respect my opinion? An opinion of hate and prejudice?

Someone else understands!

I understand trying to shed light, but to put it to a point where you are forcing your views on me, not right.

Your last post that I was adressing was a good example. You were stating that because she doesn't agree with you on this issue, she must be an advocate for violence against gays. This is what we in college call a logical fallacy. It's a personal attack rather than an attack on her argument.

NOt really. She advocates that children should not be educated to have tolerance for gay people. Many children who are not educated about gay people and acceptance are violence toward gay people. Therefore she advocates that some children should not be prevented from committing violence towards Gay people. Although it may not be her intended result, she needs to be educated.

 

[FreakyLocz14]

NOt really. She advocates that children should not be educated to have tolerance for gay people. Many children who are not educated about gay people and acceptance are violence toward gay people. Therefore she advocates that some children should not be prevented from committing violence towards Gay people. Although it may not be her intended result, she needs to be educated.

Now you are playing the Chain Reaction fallacy? Every political decision is bound to have unintended negative consequences. This is why invoking a chain reaction is a fallacious argument.

 

[Oryx]

Now you are playing the Chain Reaction fallacy? Every political decision is bound to have unintended negative consequences. This is why invoking a chain reaction is a fallacious argument.

Well now that she is educated of the negative consequences, if she chooses to keep her point of view, then she is intentionally choosing those consequences over the other option.

 

[Gothitelle.]

Really? I want people who are half black like you to not be persecuted. Why can't you do the same for me? I am for preventing crimes against black people yet you seem opposed to prevent crimes against gay people! I shouldn't have to force you to believe that I should be protected like you.

Same with marriage. I believe that you should have the wedding of your dreams. And I think that you should be able to wish me the same. Without calling it a sin.

Therefore you and your opinions are against me and my opinions are promoting you happiness in life. That is the injustice. If I advocated against biracial marriages and it was illegal for you to get married would you say that I am against you? Would you respect my opinion? An opinion of hate and prejudice?

If I offended you, I sincerely apologize. I do belive that you should have the same rights as us and you kinda do maybe except for the marriage thing (but they are passing a bill on that so yeah). I don't want you to want better treatment than us.

I would like all to be treated the same. Whether they are gay, asexual, green whatever they are, they should be treated the same.

 

[-ty-]

Now you are playing the Chain Reaction fallacy? Every political decision is bound to have unintended negative consequences. This is why invoking a chain reaction is a fallacious argument.

It is not a very long "chain reaction". I was just saying she was being ignorant to see the blatant consequences. Her actions would directly invoke the consequence of having uneducated children that have prejudice against gay people. So they will continue to bully other GBLT children. It is quite direct, just to ignorant for some to see.

 

[Gothitelle.]

Now, I did apologize for what I said. But, I want you guys to not act like your better than me. I'm still the same as you guys.

 

[-ty-]

If I offended you, I sincerely apologize. I do belive that you should have the same rights as us and you kinda do maybe except for the marriage thing (but they are passing a bill on that so yeah). I don't want you to want better treatment than us.

I would like all to be treated the same. Whether they are gay, asexual, green whatever they are, they should be treated the same.

Not even close. Gay marriage is not the same as straight marriage. There are MANY missing components and benefits. Also, gay people are being killed every day around the world, simply b/c of their orientation. I have already JUST MET people who wanted to fight me b/c of my sexual orientation I have been punched in the face several times. I guess you may not have realized that most gay people face animosity several times in their lives, not because we did this to any one or we are in a fight with this person, but b/c of our sexual orientation. This will continue to happen without educating children and punishing those who commit hate crimes against gay people. Sorry if I offended you, It makes me upset when I see people who act like I am trying to get more rights, when I am treated inequally.

 

[FreakyLocz14]

It is not a very long "chain reaction". I was just saying she was being ignorant to see the blatant consequences. Her actions would directly invoke the consequence of having uneducated children that have prejudice against gay people. So they will continue to bully other GBLT children. It is quite direct, just to ignorant for some to see.

You make it sound like these pograms will prevent all violence against LGBT people. I find it funny that the same crowd that claims this is also advocating against LGBT people's Second Amendment right to self-defense. That's a solution.

It's also fallacious to call anyone who disagrees with you ignorant. She has stressed numerous times that she has no personal bigotry against LGBT people, yet you keep trying to make it seem that way. Who is being ignorant here, again?

 

[-ty-]

She is ignorant to what gay people go through, so that is not a fallacy. I am also ignorant to what the life of a mulatto person is. We need to understand each others needs and treat each other equally. That is why we need these classes in k-12 schools.

 

[Myles]

Keep in mind that if you're Christian and you're objecting to homosexuality based on religious beliefs: homosexuality is only mentioned in Leviticus, which is an Old Testament book that Christians don't usually follow because of Corinthians.

Trying to lay low and pretend everyone thinks of one as just like everyone else is not a way for social change. Feminists didn't just fade into the background during the 60s and suddenly the world thought they were equals. Some of the comments in this topic seem to think that LGBT has already gotten equality. If you're in Canada, that would be true. For other places take a look at this: LGBT rights. That includes most US (where the thing that started this topic takes place) states not having anti-discrimination laws.

But ultimately this isn't about teaching social or morality issues in school. If it were, it would have to be said in a neutral way. But they have to state facts. It's similar to how Wikipedia is suppose to stay neutral, but the creation-evolution controversy article shows a bias towards evolution. It's because the evidence dictates that. Not every issue we face is a matter of opinion. It won't be trying to encourage homosexual behaviour, just teaching the facts.

 

[Mr. X]

Personally, I dislike the fact that 'gay history' is being taught. Not because I dislike gays, but because they are like everyone else human. What I really hate is people giving groups to much or to little credit for their accomplishments.

All for history including people who have done important things for humanity not taking into account race, gender, religious views, sexuality, or any other catagorization that people force upon each other?

Also, Myles... Nice computer. X likes.

 

[professor plum]

Keep in mind that if you're Christian and you're objecting to homosexuality based on religious beliefs: homosexuality is only mentioned in Leviticus, which is an Old Testament book that Christians don't usually follow because of Corinthians.

It's also in Romans~
However, I also believe that those were mistranslations, and they were also talking about promiscuity in those verses :3

She is ignorant to what gay people go through, so that is not a fallacy. I am also ignorant to what the life of a mulatto person is. We need to understand each others needs and treat each other equally. That is why we need these classes in k-12 schools.

There are not classes for this. It's just gay rights history being integrated into a curriculum. :P

Not even close. Gay marriage is not the same as straight marriage.

Theoretically, it is? Lol. I think you mean civil unions/etc.
There should be no gay marriage; there should be no straight marriage, either. It should be simply marriage and people regardless of orientation should be able to marry (:

Also, gay people are being killed every day around the world, simply b/c of their orientation. I have already JUST MET people who wanted to fight me b/c of my sexual orientation I have been punched in the face several times. I guess you may not have realized that most gay people face animosity several times in their lives, not because we did this to any one or we are in a fight with this person, but b/c of our sexual orientation. This will continue to happen without educating children and punishing those who commit hate crimes against gay people. Sorry if I offended you, It makes me upset when I see people who act like I am trying to get more rights, when I am treated inequally.

Now, this is true, but it's not necessarily going to happen just like that. Yes, it will help our cause, but it won't ultimately cause us to dispel all forms of ignorance :P

Favoring one viewpoint over others by dimissing them as "ignorant" compromises the academic integtity of our schools.

But the fact of the matter is that people are ignorant. If the parents won't educate their children, who will?

 

[FreakyLocz14]

If you don't like the way someone raises their kids tough luck. You raise your own kids the way you wish, and let other enjoy their freedom to do the same. I find it funny how to same crowd that protests how they want the government out of their personal decisions advocates the government interfering with the decisions of others.

 

[Oryx]

If you don't like the way someone raises their kids tough luck. You raise your own kids the way you wish, and let other enjoy their freedom to do the same. I find it funny how to same crowd that protests how they want the government out of their personal decisions advocates the government interfering with the decisions of others.

That's a slippery slope though. Erik didn't say parents should be disallowed to say whatever they want in private, but that schools should have the right to teach the right thing. I don't understand how teaching tolerance of gay people is any different from teaching tolerance of black people. I too had tolerance lessons in high school, as well as in college, although in college it was just two days where we did a workshop pretty much. That's what I imagine this lesson to be - a one or two day workshop-style lesson teaching that even if you're not gay, that doesn't give you the right to be violent or hateful towards someone who is LGBT.

If the government shouldn't interfere in anything, why don't we just pass out a curriculum to the parents and let them decide what's important to be taught? I mean, obviously all parents know what's best for their children, based on that wonderful Parent Test that they administer to make sure you're fit to raise a child. So they can be trusted to teach what's important, right? Why have schools at all? They're obviously a waste of space.

 

[FreakyLocz14]

That's a slippery slope though. Erik didn't say parents should be disallowed to say whatever they want in private, but that schools should have the right to teach the right thing. I don't understand how teaching tolerance of gay people is any different from teaching tolerance of black people. I too had tolerance lessons in high school, as well as in college, although in college it was just two days where we did a workshop pretty much. That's what I imagine this lesson to be - a one or two day workshop-style lesson teaching that even if you're not gay, that doesn't give you the right to be violent or hateful towards someone who is LGBT.

If the government shouldn't interfere in anything, why don't we just pass out a curriculum to the parents and let them decide what's important to be taught? I mean, obviously all parents know what's best for their children, based on that wonderful Parent Test that they administer to make sure you're fit to raise a child. So they can be trusted to teach what's important, right? Why have schools at all? They're obviously a waste of space.

You say that schools should teach th "right thing". The problem is, there are no rights and wrongs in politics. There are only opinions.

What may be right to you may not be right to some.

 

[Margot]

You say that schools should teach th "right thing". The problem is, there are no rights and wrongs in politics. There are only opinions.

What may be right to you may not be right to some.

Having opinions is one thing, but for a history class we're dealing with facts. And the fact of the matter is that gay history is indeed part of our history and should be taught as well as other social movements that make it into our history books. That is the right thing to do. The wrong thing to do is to overlook certain events in history because certain people don't agree with them.

 

[FreakyLocz14]

Having opinions is one thing, but for a history class we're dealing with facts. And the fact of the matter is that gay history is indeed part of our history and should be taught as well as other social movements that make it into our history books. That is the right thing to do. The wrong thing to do is to overlook certain events in history because certain people don't agree with them.

From the beginning I've said that it's fine to teach historical facts about the LGBT community. What some posters here are advocating goes beyond that.

 

[JimJams]

Yes, I do understand that there are many interpretations of the bible. Some still to this day believe in slavery, some don't. I'm not one of those people.

There's somethings I want to clear up about what you said. For one, even though you didn't directly say it, I don't hate gays. You were kinda implying that I did so I wanted to clear that up. I like all people, even gay people. There's an expression I live by: hate the sin, love the sinner. Or in a non religious way: hate the way of life, love the person living it.

Now that I cleared that up, I want to move on to your "I take my white, straight, normative life for granted". I'm kinda offended by that to be honest. Because for one, I'm not 100% white, I'm half black as well as I am half white. That's a stereotype down. Also, I know what it's like to be hated for being different. I've been teased and hated through out my whole school life because of my skin color and my looks. The race thing eventually died down when I was in middle school but the size thing still went on.

So I know what it's like to be teased. So I never take my life for granted. Why would you think I'd do that?

Love the 'sinner' but hate who they are. Yeah, that's not a complete freaking contradiction at all.
You honestly might as well say 'Love the person, hate the race/religion/class/disability'. Seriously.

 

[Shining Raichu]

Bigotry? What exactly does that mean?

I can admit if I am wrong. This is just my feelings on this. And it's not just me thinking this. Other people wiser then me are also thinking this, others in my ideology and out are thinking this as well.

Thinking what? That there is a secret gay agenda trying to force the gay lifestyle on the public? I would be very careful about calling those people wiser than anybody.

Religion also plays a factor in me thinking this.

Clearly.