Should we change Christmas so it is no longer a Christian holiday?

[aguinn99]

Heck, no. :cross-eyelook at the spoiler in my sig and you will see why.it Christians made it,keep it that way.If you want to make a new non-Christians holiday,go ahead.

 

[Corvus of the Black Night]

Well, you don't have to celebrate it Christian. I've always viewed holidays as a personal experience and you should be allowed to celebrate a holiday the way you wish to.

I'm Jewish and I celebrate Christmas... a week before. lol

Heck, no. :cross-eyelook at the spoiler in my sig and you will see why.it Christians made it,keep it that way.If you want to make a new non-Christians holiday,go ahead.

As a bit of an enlightenment... Christmas's origins are actually rooted as a holiday to celebrate a deity named Mithra. And try this on for size:

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] The theology of Mithraism was centred upon the dying/rising Mithra, emerging fully grown from the 'virgin dawn' or rock. The association of gods with rocks or stones is not surprising: fiery rocks falling from the sky (meteorites) and even sparks released by colliding stones would equally strike the simple mind as 'evidence' of a godly presence. Holy stones were anointed with oil. Mithra was fathered by the creator god Ahura-Mazda. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Miracle Birth[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Roman silver token/coin showing birth of Mithras. He emerges fully formed from a rock.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]On reverse Mithras is linked with creator god Ormzad and Egyptian sun god Re.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](Verulamium, England, 2nd-3rd century)[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Mithras's supposed creation had occurred in a 'time before men', a cosmic creation in a celestial heaven. At no time was it believed that he had lived as a mere mortal and trod the earth. Mithraism's failure to have anthropomorphised its god into a man – something which was to be accomplished so successfully by Christianity – weakened the cult's appeal to the uneducated and opened the door to the competition.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] In all other major respects the theology of the two cults were all but identical. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Mithras had had twelve followers with whom he had shared a last sacramental meal. [/FONT]The evidence from a mithraeum at Dura Europus suggests members of the congregation and thiasos (sacred company) held a banquet in which eating, drinking and musical performances featured as well as religious ceremonial.

"A third-century account for the mithraeum at Dura Europus lists the prices of materials required for a ritual banquet:
'Meat, 19 denarii; sauce, 1 denarius; paper, 1 obol; water, 1 denarius; wood, 1 denarius; jar of wine, 28 denarii 11 obols; total 51 denarii 11 obols.' "
– K. Butcher, Roman Syria, p213.
​

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]He had sacrificed himself to redeem mankind. Descending into the underworld, he had conquered death and had risen to life again on the third day. The holy day for this sun god was, of course, Sunday (Christians continued to follow the Jewish Sabbath until the fourth century). His many titles included 'the Truth,' 'the Light,' and 'the Good Shepherd.' For those who worshipped him, invoking the name of Mithras healed the sick and worked miracles. Mithras could dispense mercy and grant immortality; to his devotees he offered hope. By drinking his blood and eating his flesh (by proxy, from a slain bull) they too could conquer death. On a Day of Judgement those already dead would be raised back to life.

[/FONT]


[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]source
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[Stratos99]

Totally did not read all 5 pages of this, just saying.

I can see where Jolene is coming from.. as it is Christmas really isn't much of a Christian holiday, and with the number of complaints from people who aren't included under Christianity about Christmas, it would be a lot easier for it to be.. just a holiday in general, I guess. Not that Christians couldn't celebrate the birth of Jesus, I'm sure some people still do on Christmas, but the vast majority don't.

Of course this is just what I think, it's not actually practical and I don't think the church would let this happen.

 

[Shanghai Alice]

As a bit of an enlightenment... Christmas's origins are actually rooted as a holiday to celebrate a deity named Mithra. And try this on for size:

We're taught that in religion class. "Old news, what of it?"

I can see where Jolene is coming from.. as it is Christmas really isn't much of a Christian holiday, and with the number of complaints from people who aren't included under Christianity about Christmas, it would be a lot easier for it to be.. just a holiday in general, I guess. Not that Christians couldn't celebrate the birth of Jesus, I'm sure some people still do on Christmas, but the vast majority don't.

Of course this is just what I think, it's not actually practical and I don't think the church would let this happen.

Then make a holiday alongside Christmas. Why should Christmas be mutilated just because it's popular?

The "You Christians go celebrate it, and STFU" argument has already been shot down.

 

[Corvus of the Black Night]

We're taught that in religion class. "Old news, what of it?"

Oh, I know it's old news but I'm so sick and tired of Christians acting like Christmas was SO their idea.

 

[Stratos99]

Then make a holiday alongside Christmas. Why should Christmas be mutilated just because it's popular?

I mentioned in my post that even though I supported Jolene's sentiments, I knew the idea of it being followed through with were impractical and overall impossible. That being said, why make the new holiday to take the place of Christmas as the 'seasonal celabratory' holiday, when Christmas already plays that part rather than the Christian holiday it's supposed to be? It's not what it was supposed to be anymore, you can't reasonably deny that.

 

[Shanghai Alice]

I mentioned in my post that even though I supported Jolene's sentiments, I knew the idea of it being followed through with were impractical and overall impossible. That being said, why make the new holiday to take the place of Christmas as the 'seasonal celabratory' holiday, when Christmas already plays that part rather than the Christian holiday it's supposed to be? It's not what it was supposed to be anymore, you can't reasonably deny that.

America isn't what it was supposed to be.

So, let's all speak French, and fly the Ruski flag!

Just because it "Isn't what it was supposed to be" doesn't mean we can completely overhaul it to be even less of what was originally intended.

Look, you don't like Christmas? Celebrate Kwanzaa. After all, that was a nice, lovely PC holiday. So it's better, right?

But I can "reasonably deny that."

Yes, Christmas is heavily commercialized (Like I said, even non-Christian countries celebrate it. Someone call the ACLU!), but what does that matter?

My family, the moronic Jesus-freaks that we are, still celebrate the birth of Christ (Yes, Christians are a minority, I know... Only a few billion). Of course, change it. Our opinion isn't worth anything, because Christians are one of the few "minorities" that aren't allowed to be loud, obnoxious, vocal minorities (And Kanako knows, America never bows to those).

I'm sick of Christianity getting crapped on. I'm sick of Islam being the one religion that people aren't allowed to offend (Juan Williams got fired for thinking bad thoughts about Islam! Oh NOES!). I'm so sick of this ******** antitheist blitzkrieg.

Godless states always succeed. You take religion out of the equation and be happy with it. Take your socialist, godless, feel-good country, and stop complaining. Because if you complain about someone else, it's a crime.

Bleh. Next you'll be complaining about something that happened 400 years ago, and demanding retribu-

Oh, my bad. You people already have.


And Corvidae...

It was so our idea? What fanatics do you talk to?

Or should I say that all Atheists are baby-killers who want all religion stomped out?

Stereotypes are fair play now, apparently.

Owait, I'm a white Christian male. Why aren't I used to double standards?

 

[Stratos99]

Maybe I'll get back to you on this some day.. I skimmed it, not gonna lie. I see you've brought up something about Muslims and I can't help but feel like you've completely digressed from the original topic. o_o

 

[Shanghai Alice]

Maybe I'll get back to you on this some day.. I skimmed it, not gonna lie. I see you've brought up something about Muslims and I can't help but feel like you've completely digressed from the original topic. o_o

That's what skimming will do to your reading comprehension.

I was saying "Why the blitzkrieg against Christianity?" and used the fear of insulting Muslims as a comparison.

I don't get why there's such a "Stamp it out!" mentality about religion these days...



EDIT: But, meh. Skimming, picking out what you like, and leaving the parts you don't... I can't complain. Go ahead and do what works for you. :D

 

[donavannj]

Oh, I know it's old news but I'm so sick and tired of Christians acting like Christmas was SO their idea.

You mean it wasn't? Sure, that date may have initially belonged to a celebration of the Winter Solstice, but THAT WAS NOT CALLED CHRISTMAS. Christmas, including the date, was 100% the idea of Christians. It was a way for the churches to increase their power, and they seized upon the opportunity by creating a holiday that coincided with a pagan celebration. Quite an ingenious plan if you ask me.

 

[Stratos99]

America isn't what it was supposed to be. So, let's all speak French, and fly the Ruski flag

My proposition was to celebrate Christmas as a national holiday rather than a religious one, you're comparison is just silly. This will be the third time I've told you, I realize the practicality in doing what I propose is non existent. It's simply my opinion, It's understandable if you don't agree with it.. but what exactly are you arguing against when I've already admitted it's not a very plausible idea, not because it isn't good mind you, but because of the Religion. You can tell me I'm insulting them when I'm clearly not but are you going to tell me they'd be okay with us changing Christmas's status as a religious celebration? Of course not.

Just because it "Isn't what it was supposed to be" doesn't mean we can completely overhaul it to be even less of what was originally intended.

It's already completely overhauled, all it is nowadays is that time of year where you get free stuff. Very few people celebrate Christmas as the birth of Jesus Christ. Jolene proposed that it would make sense to call Christmas a non religious holiday, I agree. Nobody would feel insulted over a simple merry Christmas anymore, and it doesn't stop Christians from celebrating the birth of Jesus nor will their be people celebrating a religious holiday in "vain". Of course, Jesus wasn't even born on December 25th.

Look, you don't like Christmas? Celebrate Kwanzaa. After all, that was a nice, lovely PC holiday. So it's better, right?

Please chill out. I have no clue what you're trying to imply. maybe it's because of my lack of reading comprehension you so nicely pointed out. I love Christmas, would you use your wonderful reading comprehension to point out where I said or even implied I didn't like it? I don't know what Kwanzaa is, lol, but I'll look into it if you recommend it. I don't know if it's better though, mostly it's just a matter of opinion. I prefer Halloween over Easter but who knows, maybe somebody out there is a die hard Easter fan and who am I to tell them they aren't?

But I can "reasonably deny that."

Go for it.

Yes, Christmas is heavily commercialized (Like I said, even non-Christian countries celebrate it. Someone call the ACLU!), but what does that matter?

Christmas most definitely is heavily commercialized. It matters to people who actually are religious, they celebrate Christmas as the birthing of their savior while others celebrate it as the chance to get a new ipod. Take it from somebody who has seen it firsthand going to a private school, they absolutely loathed the idea of the Christmas 'spirit' being that of little kids looking forward to toys. Honestly that sounds awful, if Christmas wasn't a religious holiday they wouldn't have a reason to be so angry about little kids and toys. And overall don't you think it's a bit disrespectful to partake in a religious holiday for your own gain but without delving into the religious aspect of it?

My family, the moronic Jesus-freaks that we are

I.. what are you doing here? ): I'm not saying these things and I'm pretty sure you don't think you're a moron..?

I just sort of ignored the rest of your 'argument' because it isn't relevant at all and you're just coming off angry and disrespectful.

 

[Shanghai Alice]

Alrighty then, after a nice, tall glass of water, a nice dinner, and a few deep breaths...

I'm going to respond to this.

My proposition was to celebrate Christmas as a national holiday rather than a religious one, you're comparison is just silly.

My point was that just because something isn't "What it was supposed to be" doesn't mean that it should be even further corrupted. In fact, just the opposite, but that's borderline zealotry (To some people), so...

This will be the third time I've told you, I realize the practicality in doing what I propose is non existent. It's simply my opinion, It's understandable if you don't agree with it.. but what exactly are you arguing against when I've already admitted it's not a very plausible idea, not because it isn't good mind you, but because of the Religion.

I'm arguing the concept for the sake of arguing the concept. I don't believe in rolling over and dying just because the idea isn't plausible at the moment.

You can tell me I'm insulting them when I'm clearly not but are you going to tell me they'd be okay with us changing Christmas's status as a religious celebration? Of course not.

You have already stated that most people don't celebrate Christmas ("I'm sure some people still do on Christmas, but the vast majority don't.), right? If a majority of the people don't care for the religious aspects, then what's the problem? It's already illegal to display a Nativity scene on public property. Which, incidentally, makes this idea quite plausible. But I digress...

It's already completely overhauled, all it is nowadays is that time of year where you get free stuff. Very few people celebrate Christmas as the birth of Jesus Christ. Jolene proposed that it would make sense to call Christmas a non religious holiday, I agree.

I don't. If you change the name and the meaning, it isn't Christmas. Call a spade a spade, and be done with it. I'm not saying that only Christians should celebrate Christmas, I'm just stating that, if you celebrate it for your own reasons, I don't really care, and you shouldn't step on my toes because of it.

Before you say that toes are unrelated, I use the phrase to mean "Infringe on my rights."

Nobody would feel insulted over a simple merry Christmas anymore, and it doesn't stop Christians from celebrating the birth of Jesus nor will their be people celebrating a religious holiday in "vain".

People /do/ get insulted over a simple "Merry Christmas!" But that's a way too vocal minority, so I'll move on.

If it doesn't stop Christians from celebrating the birth of Christ, and it doesn't stop non-Christians from getting presents, why fix what isn't broken?

I think Jolene wildly missed the point, so any arguments which are based off of her points are inherently flawed.

Of course, Jesus wasn't even born on December 25th.

Yes, that's already been pointed out. Please, for the sake of dead horses everywhere, leave the poor thing alone.

Please chill out. I have no clue what you're trying to imply. maybe it's because of my lack of reading comprehension you so nicely pointed out.

I beg your pardon, Mr. Stratos99, sir.

I love Christmas, would you use your wonderful reading comprehension to point out where I said or even implied I didn't like it?

Define "Christmas." The day? The religious celebration? The concept?

I don't know what Kwanzaa is, lol,

It's a winter holiday for African-Americans, lol. Like Hanukkah, ROFLMAO. Pardon me, if you find my use of lol to be disrespectful.

but I'll look into it if you recommend it. I don't know if it's better though, mostly it's just a matter of opinion.

I'm saying that Kwanzaa, which really exists as an "African-American Pride" holiday, must be better than the old, tired-out traditions, for it is a fresh, politically correct holiday.

I am mocking the idea of changing Christmas, by using another PC example, and mocking its non-validity. I have problems with phrasing things, so this, like many of my posts, was my fault. I apologize, Mr. Stratos99, sir.

I prefer Halloween over Easter but who knows, maybe somebody out there is a die hard Easter fan and who am I to tell them they aren't?

Where have you been since the '60s? This whole thread is about telling Christians to take Jesus and stuff 'em.

Christmas most definitely is heavily commercialized. It matters to people who actually are religious, they celebrate Christmas as the birthing of their savior while others celebrate it as the chance to get a new ipod.

And that is fine.

Take it from somebody who has seen it firsthand going to a private school, they absolutely loathed the idea of the Christmas 'spirit' being that of little kids looking forward to toys. Honestly that sounds awful, if Christmas wasn't a religious holiday they wouldn't have a reason to be so angry about little kids and toys.

One private school does not represent the whole of all Christianity. My Catholic high school holds drives for the poor of the city, but are they fanatics? No, they aren't. Your point is valid, though.

And overall don't you think it's a bit disrespectful to partake in a religious holiday for your own gain but without delving into the religious aspect of it?

No, I think it's disrespectful to seek to drastically alter the holiday to punish the religious.

Or are you trying to paint me a certain way?

I.. what are you doing here? ): I'm not saying these things and I'm pretty sure you don't think you're a moron..?

Sarcasm. Much apologies.

I just sort of ignored the rest of your 'argument' because it isn't relevant at all and you're just coming off angry and disrespectful.

A point to you. I'll try to be more subtle in my disrespect, but I'm sure that would be stooping to a level far beneath yours.

Much apologies, Mr. Stratos99, sir.

If you are a woman, I doubly apologize, Mrs. Stratos99, ma'am.


EDIT: Oh, and I do apologize for being a jerk. I have a rather enjoyable headcold, so I'm mildly irritable. Most of the sarcasm is just my personality, though.

Much sorries~

...actually, you know what? I'm backing out before I get too into it. This won't result in anything good.

 

[Bluerang1]

o_O

And to who said Christmas should be a National Holiday. Why? What reason would you have to make a National day of gift giving? What's it *forgot what Milhouse first said* and origin story? Oh, you change the celebration of Jesus Christ because some people aren't Christian and celebrate it. Ok, let's change Eid then. It turns out, in this country, it's a public holiday. So let's make Eid secular, let's make Hanukkah secular. Oh wait. no? You're scared. Freakin' hypocrites who only pick on Christians. We are WAY too laid back T___T

Look up 2 Peter 1:16 people. I'll see y'all from heaven.

I just felt like letting off steam.

 

[WonderGirl]

Yep, I think it should be changed. I'm Muslim, so is my whole family, but we all celebrate Christmas. I think it's mostly because we're influenced by the French, but still, they should change it.

 

[LadySurreal]

America isn't what it was supposed to be.

So, let's all speak French, and fly the Ruski flag!

Just because it "Isn't what it was supposed to be" doesn't mean we can completely overhaul it to be even less of what was originally intended.

Look, you don't like Christmas? Celebrate Kwanzaa. After all, that was a nice, lovely PC holiday. So it's better, right?

But I can "reasonably deny that."

Yes, Christmas is heavily commercialized (Like I said, even non-Christian countries celebrate it. Someone call the ACLU!), but what does that matter?

My family, the moronic Jesus-freaks that we are, still celebrate the birth of Christ (Yes, Christians are a minority, I know... Only a few billion). Of course, change it. Our opinion isn't worth anything, because Christians are one of the few "minorities" that aren't allowed to be loud, obnoxious, vocal minorities (And Kanako knows, America never bows to those).

I'm sick of Christianity getting crapped on. I'm sick of Islam being the one religion that people aren't allowed to offend (Juan Williams got fired for thinking bad thoughts about Islam! Oh NOES!). I'm so sick of this ******** antitheist blitzkrieg.

Godless states always succeed. You take religion out of the equation and be happy with it. Take your socialist, godless, feel-good country, and stop complaining. Because if you complain about someone else, it's a crime.

Bleh. Next you'll be complaining about something that happened 400 years ago, and demanding retribu-

Oh, my bad. You people already have.


And Corvidae...

It was so our idea? What fanatics do you talk to?

Or should I say that all Atheists are baby-killers who want all religion stomped out?

Stereotypes are fair play now, apparently.

Owait, I'm a white Christian male. Why aren't I used to double standards?

Even we Agnostics get picked on, and we're a smaller minority. As for retribution: The Russians, Chinese, Arabs, Persians and Ukrainians are awaiting apologies from Mongolia for all the horrors they did to them...800 years later....no apologies.

Europeans and Christian Africans are awaiting apologies from Turkey, North Africa and the Middle East for all the crimes they've did, worse for women who bear children against her will, then sold again.

The Greeks have yet to get Constantinople back, which was taken from them long before Native Americans lost their land "Yeah, but the Turks conquered the city, it's fair play"
Well, the Native Americans got conquered, fair play too, yes?

Vietnamese people are still waiting to end their dispute with China invading Spratley(mis-spelled I think) Island and killing 67+ of the Vietnamese Marines, that is violation of Vietnam's sovereignty and counted as an invasion, but why is no one talking about it? Well, do you ever wonder why East Asian Nationalists seem to get along well with White Nationalists compared to other races?

We can't get everything we want in life, nothing is guaranteed.

Back on the topic of Christmas: It's a Norse Pagan/Christian holiday. Get over it. Lets re-name Hanukkah because Arabs made 20% of Israel's population, lets re-name Ramadan because Emiratis made less than 20% of the United Arab Emira's population, just so they don't offend European, African, and Asian immigrants there.

Edit again: I'm still holding on to Cashmas. That's what it's all about now anyway.

 

[Elite Overlord LeSabre™]

I second "Cashmas." Seriously, my family is Christian and we hardly ever touch upon that aspect of the holiday. My Christmas Day routine as of late is to open the presents, calculate my net profit or loss considering that the cost of gifts to others affects my bottom line, go back to bed until mid-afternoon, and then complain how I can't have Christmas dinner at a nice casual dining restaurant because they're all closed except for Denny's which aren't located near us.

So no, don't change Christmas. It's a holiday for us financial people and accountants anyway. Someday soon I won't even spend Christmas at home; I'll be spending it at the office with my co-workers going over third quarter earnings and gathering financial records in preparation for tax season..

tl;dr: If the Christian aspect of Christmas offends you, either don't celebrate anything that day or celebrate the day as if the Christian aspect doesn't exist. The latter has worked for me for years. No need to change the whole thing.

Or maybe we should just get rid of the whole December holiday season altogether and just go to school or work as normal on December 25. It would honestly no longer be a religious matter that way.

 

[Rich Boy Rob]

Why don't we make a new holiday solely for Christians that takes place in October (or whatever the true date of Jesus' birth is) that is solely for the celebration of his birth. That way Christians get 2 days to celebrate, one where they get to exchange gifts and stuff themselves full of Turkey & Xmas pudding and one where they can go to church and, well do whatever they do at church on other holidays.

That way everyone's happy.

 

[Dawn]

Or should I say that all Atheists are baby-killers who want all religion stomped out?

Naaah. You can't do that. We're not a minority! We as Christians owe everyone else in the world, and they know it. So we better take it like men and repent to them for our deeds. Because we're terrible people and deserve our punishment, eternally walking up the endless staircase to redemption for our sins. We can't defend ourselves because then we would be picking on a minority! Baptism be damned, we're born into these sins and they aren't leaving!

Hey! Let's team up with the Caucasian and straight parts of the population. and then we can become the biggest picked on majority yet!

It seems like justice, right!?

I'm sick of Christianity getting crapped on. I'm sick of Islam being the one religion that people aren't allowed to offend (Juan Williams got fired for thinking bad thoughts about Islam! Oh NOES!). I'm so sick of this ******** antitheist blitzkrieg.

Bleh. Next you'll be complaining about something that happened 400 years ago, and demanding retribu-

Oh, my bad. You people already have.

Seconded

Even we Agnostics get picked on

...I've never seen someone get picked on for being agnostic. I'm just saying. The concept of "doubt" is generally pretty dang respectable to most people.

 

[LadySurreal]

Naaah. You can't do that. We're not a minority! We as Christians owe everyone else in the world, and they know it. So we better take it like men and repent to them for our deeds. Because we're terrible people and deserve our punishment, eternally walking up the endless staircase to redemption for our sins. We can't defend ourselves because then we would be picking on a minority! Baptism be damned, we're born into these sins and they aren't leaving!

Hey! Let's team up with the Caucasian and straight parts of the population. and then we can become the biggest picked on majority yet!

It seems like justice, right!?



Seconded



...I've never seen someone get picked on for being agnostic. I'm just saying. The concept of "doubt" is generally pretty dang respectable to most people.

What I said sound quite generalizing then. Usually I can't go listen to songs dealing with "what lucifer really is" or Orthodox Christian chants (which I find very relaxing to hear) without an Atheist stomping in and insult basically everyone, then goes back to the corner and cry about how everyone hates Atheists and that they're like Jews in Nazi Germany.
Then when they find an Agnostic simply doing what he/she wanted to do, they'll come in and say we're cowards who linger on to a need of a daddy. Retaliate and we'll see insults in horrible grammar and too many "f"s and "You're so ret-arded"
Then moves on mentioning how Science proves there isn't God, despite us using the fact the Scientific Method can't prove or disprove God, yet they have the guts to mention Science? In real life, they think because they are Atheist they can pass any exams within 10 minutes only to cry their eyes out and claim the university is pro-religion when they failed the entrance exams.
If they are so smart, they should know not everyone can share the same view as they do, and never will humanity reach a state where we all act and think the same. I know there's some out there, but tell me a story of an Agnostic that goes into a YouTube video titled "Our God is an Awesome God" or "Muslim religious chant", or even "Buddhist Chant" only to insult them with "facts"?
/rant

This does not apply to every Atheists, just the ones who I often run into.

 

[Shanghai Alice]

Ehh, I have a deeper respect for Agnostics than I do for radical Atheists.

Ever read Life of Pi? Doubt is natural, and it's good to doubt.

By that train of thought, I also have no problem with most Atheists.

Most.