2nd Gen ...so why are these games considered THAT good?

[mattman324]

Alright. You pass up the GSC and RBY threads, and notice a new one. Realising what the topic is, and who created it, you laugh. "Not just that boneheaded Mattman324 again", you say. But you click it. And here you are.

The topic is exactly what I posted as the title. Why are gen1 and 2 considered to be the pinicle of the series, but gen3 and 4 considered to be stupid, dumb, ect.? In my opinion, the games have gotten better each time.

But what does that make the first games? Now, let's get this out of the way right now: I'M NOT BASHING THE OLD GAMES. The absolute LOWEST I would rate a Pokemon game out of 10 is 5, and that's for Yellow (with Red and Blue being 6). I'm simply noting that there is a lot of falisey running around about the old games and how good they are, and making people realise that maybe, MAYBE they aren't that good.

First, let's go over the gen2 problems, as a lot of people think that these games are the Holy Grail incarnate. First, there's the plot. So team rocket has survived for 3 years, is brought back to full strength... yet instead of doing something USEFUL, they attempt to bring back a leader who DESTROYED THE TEAM THREE YEARS PRIOR. Sereously, what is up with that? They obviously don't need Giovanni, but only seem to care about bringing him back. That makes even less sence than all the rest of the plots, which are all generic anyway.

Next, there's the region problem. Yeah, there's two regions. So what? Kanto isn't even back entirely, it's like a... a butchered, half sister of Kanto. They stripped the region down to it's core. So, does this mean Johto gets to be better? ...No, johto is also a poorly designed region. You go from new bark, go around a circle to get rid of Sudowoodo, (And you thought Gen3 had backtracking problems!), and then you can do the Team Rocket plot... before doing the west half. The game designers even KNEW this, it's why the trainers up to the Lake of Rage are at levels that you beat back in the lighthouse. Also, the paths are small, it's a lot of "Grass patch here, small road here, maybe being forced to go through grass at here, a few trainers throughout". And don't say it lengthened the game any: Gen2 and Gen3's speed runs are VERY SIMILAR timewise.

And having 2 regions caused ANOTHER big problem, this one being the level curve. They couldn't have Lance have level 60 Dragonites because then, the gym leaders of sorta-Kanto would have to be much higher leveled to prove threatining, and Red might have even peaked at level 100! So, they made Lance a lot lower leveled... but the people making sorta-Kanto made the gym leader levels to small to be a challange. Now, HGSS fixed that (And a lot of other stuff), but that's Gen4, and shouldn't be used in a Gen2 support argument.

But at least most of those just made GSC boring and not as good, RBY was as broken as all heck. I'm going to recount the things that were changed in the following generations:

Type charts. (Mainly to make Psychic a lot less threatining)
Critical hit ratio.
Splitting of Special.
Bag Space (I don't really NEED Palkia-brand bags, but they're much better than the RBY ones. If you got the town map or itemfinder in those games, you were an idiot.)
EV and IV system (But that took till Gen3)
Physical/Special Split. (And this took till gen4!)
The sprite quality. (OK, they got better a lot quicker, and this didn't effect gameplay, but w/e.)
The creativity in design of pokemon. (Before you blast DPPt's pokemon designs... Gastly. Seel. Geodude. Krabby. The huge number of Ball and Snake pokemon in Gen1.)

Probubly a whole bunch of stuff that I forgot, and will add if I remember.

Oh, and Team Rocket sort of seemed like stock villans. They want to take over the world... OF COURSE! At least Galactic was attempting to kill everything and everyone (AND THEY WOULD HAVE GOTTEN AWAY WITH IT TO, IF IT WEREN'T FOR THOSE MEDDLING KIDS AND THAT MANGY GIRATINA!)

So yeah. Those are the reasons I think the old generations are overrated, and the new ones are underrated. Keep in mind that I actually started with GSC, and that, for a while, they were my favorites. But, sort of like how I thought Pidgeot was good, it took a while, and a certain Youtube user to make me realise that I was wrong.

I'm also not - I repeat, NOT - saying everything from Gen2 and before are bad, and new is good. Gengar is one of the most cool looking pokemon ever, Feraligatr is the most badass, and Huntail is definately bad designed. But still.

 

[Heart's Soul]

Well, we enjoyed these games as kids since there weren't great quality RPGs on the GB on the time and (being hypothetical) let's just say that the second generation just... ended. Like it deserved. We would have never gotten EV's (but we had IV, hence, different stats and shinies)

Also, GIRATINA does nothing! Have you ever played DP?

And Youtube is full of angry video game nerds.

 

[mattman324]

"Deserved"? Cutting a game off at a really bad point for it... that's like saying that Luigi deserved to dissapear after Luigi's Mansion.

Oh, right. Taking a person with full control over Dialga and Palkia, who was about to use their power to destroy the world and everything in it, and dragging him into the Torn World where he couldn't do that was doing absolutely nothing. You got me there.

 

[Heart's Soul]

Wow. Have you ever played DP? He gets the legend of that specific game and then the Red Chain does not activate properly and you have to capture the weak legendary. Duh.

Besides, TPC actually did confess to their desire to close Pokemon after Pocket Monsters 2. Have you read the news story?

 

[mattman324]

Wow. Have you ever played DP? He gets the legend of that specific game and then the Red Chain does not activate properly and you have to capture the weak legendary. Duh.

Besides, TPC actually did confess to their desire to close Pokemon after Pocket Monsters 2. Have you read the news story?

I haven't played DP, but that doesn't matter, because we're talking about Platinum, which I have played. He summons Dialga and Palkia, the Red chain is fully active... and then Giratina pops up. Seems to me that if Giratina were popping up, it was probubly working.

I don't particularly care if they were going to. Did they? No.

EDIT: Sorry, but you have never played Platinum. Because if you had, then you would have noticed that I was right. See?

 

[Munch Dog]

I liked it because they're fun. I don't need to explain much more I don't think, it's probably nostalgia talking but I have fonder memories playing gen 2 then any other generation, and I've been playing since RBY. Sure, the level curve is terrible and Kanto was severely downsized from RBY but they're things I can live with because of just how much fun I had with the games, and Team Rocket story isn't that bad, I mean what more can they do with it anyways? Besides, I think they're supposed to be incompetent. And it wasn't really Giovanni that failed them, he's actually a pretty good leader compared to the other team leaders Red just happened to be there to screw up all his plans. While I didn't much care for Gen 3, I did like Gen 4 a lot, it's actually what got me back into Pokemon after I burned out during Gen 3. I would probably put it up as my second favorite generation after Gen 2, because like Gen 2 I had a lot of fun playing them and playing through Diamond the first time gave me a similar feeling I had when I was first playing Gold and Silver.

 

[Sydian]

If you, Mattman, and Heart's Soul don't cool it, I will lock the thread.

As for all you're saying, I'll just say this: I don't care how broken, old, crappy, and unoriginal these games are, I'll play them any day. It's all a matter of preference if you ask me. Personally, I don't like my games to be sugar coated with easiness and have everything spoon fed to me. So limited bag space is fine with me. Crappy sprites make me smile. Blocky music gets stuck in my head and I don't mind it. Simple designs and complex designs alike are fine with me. But that's just my opinion. I'm only checking in on this thread to make sure it doesn't overheat in here.

PS: We wouldn't have special splits, bigger bags, and better sprites if it weren't for these games. The lack of all this gave room for improvement. Without mistakes, we can never grow as human beings, and I believe the same stands for games.

 

[coconutberry]

I think it's probably nostalgia, as well as the fact that those who played R/B/Y originally were blown away by the improvements in G/S/C, giving them a really special spot. After all, G/S/C were the first to have:

-Night/Day
-Breeding
-Shinies
-Animated sprites
-Female character
-Berries
-Custom PokeBalls
-A legendary plot (not as strong as R/S/E or D/P/Pl, but still)
-Something major to do after the main game is over, even if it is "stripped down"
-Absolutely AWESOME new Pokemon
-The PokeGear
-Battle Tower

G/S/C was a MAJOR step forward in the Pokemon franchise, so of course, people are going to view these games highly. If it wasn't for some of these features, we wouldn't have the awesome games of today.

I think that, the reason people dislike Gen III is because they took out a lot of these features, namely, the Day/Night feature. While Emerald brought some of the G/S/C stuff back, it just wasn't the same. And the Pokemon... Well, it's just a matter of taste. It can be hard to adapt to the new Pokemon when you're so used to the old ones. Not to mention, only a few of the past Pokemon were in R/S/E... For the most part, it was an entirely new cast.

Gen IV brought even more stuff back, but I'm sure I'm not the only person to think that it was just missing something. I kind of feel like most of the Sinnoh Pokemon were just evolutions/pre-evolutions of existing Pokemon -- not cool. :\

 

[Aureol]

The biggest turn-off for me in the later generations are the Pokemon designs. Not all of them are bad, but after the 2nd Gen., we started getting an annoying number of creatures that just didn't look good (granted, there were those in the first two generations that weren't fabulous either, but there were far fewer). I agree that there were many things wrong with the 1st/2nd Generation, which is why my favorite game in the series is FireRed/LeafGreen (haven't gotten a chance to play HeartGold/SoulSilver), because it's a game with only the original Pokemon for the most part, but it also has many numerous fixes.

In the 1st Generation, I could count the number of Pokemon I don't like on one hand. 2nd Generation, maybe 2. I'll even give the 3rd Generation some credit and say, while there were tons of Pokemon that didn't look good, the majority still looked acceptable. The biggest reason I haven't completed Emerald yet is all the water, not really the Pokemon inside. However, I just can't bring myself to play with 4th Generation Pokemon.

The plot is also getting a bit ridiculous too. While these games aren't really played for their incredibly deep story, it does get annoying when things get more convoluted. In D/P/Pt, I haven't actually played it, so correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you out to save the world from destruction by liberating the Pokemon of Time and Space from the control of a human? It's one thing to lack a deep plot, which all the Pokemon games do, but it's another to make it so absurd without any depth or anything. In the 5th Generation, are we going to prevent someone from capturing Arceus so he won't blow up the universe?

Basically, the only thing I see going for later generations is game mechanics. Some things, such as the Attack/Special Attack split, were very good ideas, and I generally don't have complaints for anything else that has been changed. But game mechanics aren't enough to get me playing with Pokemon I severely dislike. I'll gladly play the remakes though, and the original still have a place with me.

 

[RivalGator]

Alright. You pass up the GSC and RBY threads, and notice a new one. Realising what the topic is, and who created it, you laugh. "Not just that boneheaded Mattman324 again", you say. But you click it. And here you are.

That did not happen in my case.

The topic is exactly what I posted as the title. Why are gen1 and 2 considered to be the pinicle of the series, but gen3 and 4 considered to be stupid, dumb, ect.? In my opinion, the games have gotten better each time.

Well, I mean... In most of or opinions, the games have gotten worse, as now I am going to debate with everything you say. (Kindly.)

But what does that make the first games? Now, let's get this out of the way right now: I'M NOT BASHING THE OLD GAMES. The absolute LOWEST I would rate a Pokemon game out of 10 is 5, and that's for Yellow (with Red and Blue being 6). I'm simply noting that there is a lot of falisey running around about the old games and how good they are, and making people realise that maybe, MAYBE they aren't that good.

Good luck making me think this. I am honestly on the edge of my seat.

First, let's go over the gen2 problems, as a lot of people think that these games are the Holy Grail incarnate. First, there's the plot. So team rocket has survived for 3 years, is brought back to full strength... yet instead of doing something USEFUL, they attempt to bring back a leader who DESTROYED THE TEAM THREE YEARS PRIOR. Sereously, what is up with that? They obviously don't need Giovanni, but only seem to care about bringing him back. That makes even less sence than all the rest of the plots, which are all generic anyway.

They are the Holy Grain incarnate of Pokemon. And what is wrong with the plot? Team Rocket comes back. I can think of a trillion games and shows and movies that are REALLY popular where people come back stronger than ever, try to revive a leader or something, and fail. They're bad guys. C'mon. And Giovanni isn't weak. I mean, this man has done a lot of evil. And he's honestly the coolest and scariest boss out there. So what if they wanted Giovanni back? When he was in power, he knew what he wanted and he went for it. He doesn't beat around bush. He wasn't a god damn rip-off shithead like Maxie and Archie were.

Next, there's the region problem. Yeah, there's two regions. So what? Kanto isn't even back entirely, it's like a... a butchered, half sister of Kanto. They stripped the region down to it's core. So, does this mean Johto gets to be better? ...No, johto is also a poorly designed region. You go from new bark, go around a circle to get rid of Sudowoodo, (And you thought Gen3 had backtracking problems!), and then you can do the Team Rocket plot... before doing the west half. The game designers even KNEW this, it's why the trainers up to the Lake of Rage are at levels that you beat back in the lighthouse. Also, the paths are small, it's a lot of "Grass patch here, small road here, maybe being forced to go through grass at here, a few trainers throughout". And don't say it lengthened the game any: Gen2 and Gen3's speed runs are VERY SIMILAR timewise.

Wait a second. Johto is a poorly deisgned region? I thought it was the best looking region there is. I'm very proud of Johto. It was beautiful, the scenery was beautiful, the landmarks were beautiful, and just... Everything about that game was beautiful. So what if you get rid of Sudowoodo? It's a three way road. Not that damning, not that hard. Especially when you get FLY. And I'm not saying it lengthened the game, because my god... That game was way too short. I thought it was as fun as hell.

And what is wrong with Kanto? I didn't find it a stripped down half-sister (?) version of the game. I thought it was better than the original. They aren't going to make Kanto the EXACT. SAME. GAME. as Y/R/B, okay? They wanted Kanto in there so trainers could enjoy the game further.

And having 2 regions caused ANOTHER big problem, this one being the level curve. They couldn't have Lance have level 60 Dragonites because then, the gym leaders of sorta-Kanto would have to be much higher leveled to prove threatining, and Red might have even peaked at level 100! So, they made Lance a lot lower leveled... but the people making sorta-Kanto made the gym leader levels to small to be a challange. Now, HGSS fixed that (And a lot of other stuff), but that's Gen4, and shouldn't be used in a Gen2 support argument.

Wow. Kanto proving threatening. Oh boy. Terrible. Red being on level 100. Ooo. Terrible again. I would actually LOVE to see this, because I just so happen to be a person who trains her whole team to level 100, and I did back then too. And Gen 2 had it's problems sure. I mean, yeah, it threw off the level curve, so what? But it has it's good parts.
I could raise another team in Kanto. What is wrong with that? I found it an advantage more than a disadvantage.

But at least most of those just made GSC boring and not as good,

Hey, speak for yourself. I think you're completely and totally wrong. I found all of the other game to be hellapiss boring compared to G/S/C, thanks.

Oh, and Team Rocket sort of seemed like stock villans. They want to take over the world... OF COURSE! At least Galactic was attempting to kill everything and everyone (AND THEY WOULD HAVE GOTTEN AWAY WITH IT TO, IF IT WEREN'T FOR THOSE MEDDLING KIDS AND THAT MANGY GIRATINA!)

Team Rocket and Team Galactic were the best two teams IMO, yes. But as I said before, Team Rocket are threatening and dangerous. They don't care about other people and they were out for profit and anything that benefit themselves. That's not always a bad thing to have a team that doesn't have this OMG INCREDIBLE YAY!!!! master plan. Besides. Giovanni created Mewtwo and stuff like that. It kind of shows right here that they have technology that probaby Team Galactic doesn't even have.

So yeah. Those are the reasons I think the old generations are overrated, and the new ones are underrated. Keep in mind that I actually started with GSC, and that, for a while, they were my favorites. But, sort of like how I thought Pidgeot was good, it took a while, and a certain Youtube user to make me realise that I was wrong.

I started with Gold. And I still love those games ridiculously to this day. I don't care if they weren't god-like or not, they aren't over-rated. Everyone freaked out over them then, and most of us didn't grow out of them, even with people like you pointing out the faults. We still freaked out when the remakes were coming, most of us couldn't even wait THAT long. We had to order the Jap version just to satisfy or appetites. Some like me actually woke up extra early and camped out just to get my hands on that game. If I wanted to, I could seriously sit here all day and rant and RAVE about the crap that R/S/E and P/D/P put me through. These new one, IMO, are the over rated ones. They aren't nearly as good as you try to make them out to be. G/S/ and C will never, EVER be outdone by those games.

I'm also not - I repeat, NOT - saying everything from Gen2 and before are bad, and new is good. Gengar is one of the most cool looking pokemon ever, Feraligatr is the most badass, and Huntail is definately bad designed. But still.

My god, SPEAK FOR YOURSELF. Meganium, IMO, is the most badass, thanks. And Huntail? What is wrong with him? I don't think he was badly designed at all.
But still.
Speak for yourself. You sound like everything you say is true. 'He IS badly designed.' Well, I don't think so, thanks. 'This one is most badass.' 'THIS is definitely bad.' 'THIS is ridiculous.' 'THEY are NOT my kind of villains.'

Why not understand that a lot of us don't agree with those statements with every fiber of our being and at LEAST put IMO sometimes? Because it IS your opinion, and not fact. AT ALL.

Thank you. I may sound like I'm complaining, but I mean every word I say of it.

 

[ILoveDragonite]

I hated gen 1 to be honest. Until the remakes that is. I loved gen 2 however, 'cause of the graphics (Which were good at the time.)

 

[.Kaiser]

The first pokemon games I played was Emerald, and I LOVED it.
Yet G/S/C remains awesomer.

 

[Sydian]

I agree with Eivana on most parts, but with all that said, I just don't think I can even bother keeping this thread open anymore. It's gotten too hectic and we all know swearing isn't allowed, no matter how angry you're getting. I've already spoken to her on the matter, so with that, this thread est finit.

Locked.