Suspects (round 2)

[Human]

Kyogre should obviously be Uber. As for the rest, I don't care. Landlos, Manaphy, and Latios I can see, but the other two? Come on.

I also think it's ridiculous to ban Drizzle + Swift Swim. That's just going out of your way to ban stuff. If your team can't handle a Rain team, it obviously isn't built well enough.

Plus, Rain Dance takes, what, one turn to set up? There's not much of a difference between a Politoed with Drizzle and a Jirachi holding a damp rock. More convenient, sure. But it doesn't change all that much.

 

[SpeedRave13]

Kyogre should obviously be Uber. As for the rest, I don't care. Landlos, Manaphy, and Latios I can see, but the other two? Come on.

I also think it's ridiculous to ban Drizzle + Swift Swim. That's just going out of your way to ban stuff. If your team can't handle a Rain team, it obviously isn't built well enough.

Plus, Rain Dance takes, what, one turn to set up? There's not much of a difference between a Politoed with Drizzle and a Jirachi holding a damp rock. More convenient, sure. But it doesn't change all that much.

It changes a lot actually. Drizzle is perma-rain, whilst Damp Rock Rain Dance is only 8 turns. And lets face it, one of the main strategies for beating rain has always been "stall out the turns". And if you think that you can just "have a well built team that fully beats a well built rain team", its not that simple :/

 

[Human]

It changes a lot actually. Drizzle is perma-rain, whilst Damp Rock Rain Dance is only 8 turns. And lets face it, one of the main strategies for beating rain has always been "stall out the turns". And if you think that you can just "have a well built team that fully beats a well built rain team", its not that simple :/

Okay, you got me. And probably the impact they're having is more than my downplayed comments made them to be. But still, it can't be that huge of a problem, or at the very least it can be worked around (especially considering everyone seems to have Nattorei on their team, which pretty much walls any swift swim sweepers).

I guess I can equate Rain Dance teams to the use of Blissey. They can be taken down, but if you don't prepare for them you're in trouble.

 

[SpeedRave13]

Okay, you got me. And probably the impact they're having is more than my downplayed comments made them to be. But still, it can't be that huge of a problem, or at the very least it can be worked around (especially considering everyone seems to have Nattorei on their team, which pretty much walls any swift swim sweepers).

I guess I can equate Rain Dance teams to the use of Blissey. They can be taken down, but if you don't prepare for them you're in trouble.

Natty can't do anything to Ludicolo really. And in order to fully "prepare" for a rain team, you'd have to put so much into beating just them it leaves you open against too many other threats. Its like Gen 4 Garchomp. Once its set up, its gonna maul you.

 

[Human]

Natty can't do anything to Ludicolo really. And in order to fully "prepare" for a rain team, you'd have to put so much into beating just them it leaves you open against too many other threats. Its like Gen 4 Garchomp. Once its set up, its gonna maul you.

Meh...I'm used to my teams being slow and defensive, so I guess I'm biased. I still think it can be dealt with, as almost all Pokemon who have it have a grass/electric weakness (except rare exceptions like Ludicolo and Kingdra).

 

[SpeedRave13]

Meh...I'm used to my teams being slow and defensive, so I guess I'm biased. I still think it can be dealt with, as almost all Pokemon who have it have a grass/electric weakness (except rare exceptions like Ludicolo and Kingdra).

Except Kingdra and Ludicolo are the two main abusers, along with Kabutops

 

[Vrai]

Meh...I'm used to my teams being slow and defensive, so I guess I'm biased. I still think it can be dealt with, as almost all Pokemon who have it have a grass/electric weakness (except rare exceptions like Ludicolo and Kingdra).

and you expect to hit them with grass/electric moves how? a) in rain they're blindingly fast, don't expect to outspeed them with anything but scarf deoxys-s which I'm fairly sure doesn't learn any grass/electric moves outside of hidden power. b) there is no grass/electric priority move at all. c) most things that can hit it with a grass/electric move have to be able to take boosted hit from rain or from an sd or a shell break that gorebyss and kabutops can get in. d) even if you have a pokémon that can do that, you'll need a couple because rain is so high-powered that it's going to take out your wall that uses grass/electric moves or whatever. if you're going to use a "strategy" like that to beat out rain (and by "strategy" I mean "use walls that can take a hit and use grass/electric moves") you're going to need to run a couple and by then you become weak to other styles of teams, meaning that rain is over-centralizing the metagame and it's become too powerful. in all honesty, while rain in general can be dealt with, for the most part people who play rain aren't as effective as some people - and if you've ever played against an effective rain player, you'd realize that there's not a whole lot of hope for you to pull it off even in comparison to other styles like stall.

i think that rain probably was over-centralizing and while it does suck to lose rain, you can always run damp rock + swift swim.

edit: also kingdra is THE BIGGEST abuser of rain. it's not rare by any means.

 

[Human]

and you expect to hit them with grass/electric moves how?

I really don't. I plan to wear their team down with entry hazards, which is how my style of play is. Or toxic. Or T-Wave. Or weather of my own.

Maybe it's because my team's are always very bulky, but I don't see how preparing for the rain is any different than preparing for Blissey, or one of these other overpowered Dragons everyone seems to use.

Rain teams weren't impossible to stop before, and they won't be now, either.

edit: also kingdra is THE BIGGEST abuser of rain. it's not rare by any means.

I know Kingdra isn't rare, but it's typing is. It's an exception because most Swift Swimmers have a Grass or Electric weakness.

 

[Dark Azelf]

I really don't. I plan to wear their team down with entry hazards, which is how my style of play is. Or toxic. Or T-Wave. Or weather of my own.

Maybe it's because my team's are always very bulky, but I don't see how preparing for the rain is any different than preparing for Blissey, or one of these other overpowered Dragons everyone seems to use.

Rain teams weren't impossible to stop before, and they won't be now, either.


I know Kingdra isn't rare, but it's typing is. It's an exception because most Swift Swimmers have a Grass or Electric weakness.

Blissey is just one Pokemon which is easy to stop honestly and so are all the dragons. Rain has a whole multitude of threats that abuse it. Specs Kingdra is ridiculous in rain, 3hkoing Sp.Def Natt with water moves and 2hkoing Blissey and once Natt is worn down its basically GG. Then you have things like Shell Smash Gorebyss/Oma, SD Kabutops, Ludicolo etc. You cant even revenge kill rain threats due to their immense speed. Its different because Blissey/dragons don't get an auto +2 speed and +1 boost to their STAB moves each time they come in and dont outspeed the whole metagame, which rain dance sweepers do.

The reason rain teams weren't impossible to stop before is because rain could be stalled out. With Drizzle it cannot.

 

[Human]

Blissey is just one Pokemon which is easy to stop honestly and so are all the dragons. Rain has a whole multitude of threats that abuse it. Specs Kingdra is ridiculous in rain, 3hkoing Sp.Def Natt with water moves and 2hkoing Blissey and once Natt is worn down its basically GG. Then you have things like Shell Smash Gorebyss/Oma, SD Kabutops, Ludicolo etc. You cant even revenge kill rain threats due to their immense speed. Its different because Blissey/dragons don't get an auto +2 speed and +1 boost to their STAB moves each time they come in and dont outspeed the whole metagame, which rain dance sweepers do.

The reason rain teams weren't impossible to stop before is because rain could be stalled out. With Drizzle it cannot.

I guess you're right. But I still don't see people on random wifi (which I understand black and white has) not using it.

 

[Dark Azelf]

I guess you're right. But I still don't see people on random wifi (which I understand black and white has) not using it.

Wifi is a totally different metagame. The PO metagame advances much faster than Wifi as you can test things alot more freely there and arent limited by breeding etc.

 

[Human]

Wifi is a totally different metagame. The PO metagame advances much faster than Wifi as you can test things alot more freely there and arent limited by breeding etc.

Speaking of which, seeing as I don't do much shoddy/PO (except for team testing), what's going to be the deal with breeding and dream world abilities?

I assume they can't be bred, which will make it hard for the (dwindling) group of us that don't use Pokesav/AR.

Ignoring the people that do use Pokesav, in theory the Rain teams should be less frequent in a wifi environment, as it would require a user to catch several Politoed's in order to get one with a usable nature (let alone IV's...which I don't breed to begin with anyway).

 

[Dark Azelf]

Speaking of which, seeing as I don't do much shoddy/PO (except for team testing), what's going to be the deal with breeding and dream world abilities?

I assume they can't be bred, which will make it hard for the (dwindling) group of us that don't use Pokesav/AR.

Ignoring the people that do use Pokesav, in theory the Rain teams should be less frequent in a wifi environment, as it would require a user to catch several Politoed's in order to get one with a usable nature (let alone IV's...which I don't breed to begin with anyway).

You can breed D/W abilities.

Regardless Swift Swim + Drizzle is banned on the same team so i doubt you'll see them often at all anyway.

 

[Ratty524]

You can breed D/W abilities.

Regardless Swift Swim + Drizzle is banned on the same team so i doubt you'll see them often at all anyway.

Since when? The only reason people use Politoad is to provide infinate rain for those who take advantage of it. Did Smogon decide to be killjoys and ban it?

 

[Human]

You can breed D/W abilities.

Regardless Swift Swim + Drizzle is banned on the same team so i doubt you'll see them often at all anyway.

Oh, well that's convenient, I suppose.

Ah, I see. Does the same go for Sunny Day + Chlorophyll?

 

[Ratty524]

Oh, well that is convenient, I suppose.

Ah, I see. Does the same go for Sunny Day + Chlorophyll?

I don't think so.

After reading past some pages, I finally understand why Drizzle+Swift Swim is banned. The major abusers of it are highly powerful and have substantial bulk (Kingdra and Ludicolo in particular), and with no grass/electric priority moves, they can be HIGHLY difficult to stop.

Heck, over on PO's main server (they were abusing rain long before smogon "discovered" it), I remember it being a pain in the ass to stop. It became standard for me to carry an evo stone Chansey and a Mischievous heart user like Voltros to slow them down with thunderwave, but even that is difficult to pull off without getting pelted to death.

On the other hand, Sunny Day is actually somewhat acceptable in my view. Most fire types tend to suffer from a steath rock weakness and well... Grass isn't exactly the best offensive type, especially since EVERYBODY carries a steel or a dragon. Shiftry can't exactly hold himself against priority fighting attackers, so I actually feel that sunny day is more fair by comparison.

 

[Dark Azelf]

Ok, its come to my attention because PC server hasn't yet fixed the Landlos Sand Force glitch, Landlorus/Randorusu/Landlos is BANNED on the PC server in OU until further notice (most likely until after stage 3 of smogons test) and because it was lucky in its suspect test via evading it due to said glitch.