The Rainbow Connection [LGBTS Club]

[FreakyLocz14]

Of course I'm kidding, guys.

 

[Ctrl.Alt.Geak]

How long did you spend in denial or self-hate before realising and coming to terms with the fact that you're gay/trans/whatever?
Pretty much my whole time spent in highschool was my denial/self-hate period. I came to terms with it when I left school, I think it really gave me time to clear my head and because I was by myself all the time I had the time to be myself without worrying what others thought.
Recently though I've began to wonder if I am trans. Its not something I want to think about too much at the moment, but it does play on my mind quite a bit.

For gay/lesbian people, when you were in the closet, were you ever directly asked your sexuality? How did you respond?

Yes, I've been asked by a few people. I just give the calmest "no" I can and try to change the subject in a totally unsuspicious way. Sometimes I'll throw in the cliche "I just havent found the right person yet" speech.

 

[Nakuzami]

Do you feel sexual orientation and gender identity should be grouped together in the gay rights movement? Should they be grouped together at all?

Well, I don't think that they're the same thing, at all, but both groups are discriminated against and if both groups fight alongside each other, there's probably a bigger chance of success. Killing two birds with one stone, I guess.

Spoiler:

Do you feel that transgender people reinforce gender stereotypes, break them down, or do anything either way?

I must say, I've never really thought about this. I don't know that they do anything for gender stereotypes either way. Gender stereotypes are perpetuated by those who are so obsessed with being seen a certain way that they need to follow the stereotypes in order to feel comfortable with themselves. If transgendered people do this, it's not all that different - no better or worse - than a macho straight man crushing a beer can on his forehead.

Have you ever witnessed/experienced any anti-trans sentiments/actions (or been the 'culprit' yourself)? If you did how did you respond (or what made you act that way)?

Not to my recollection. Honestly, before joining this club, the transgender community was simply not on my radar. I didn't know any transgendered people (or if I did, I was oblivious to it) and I never gave the issue much thought. So I was not presented with any opportunities to either react to transphobic behaviour or partake in it myself. I honestly don't know how I might have reacted, though being gay myself and not particularly invested in showing off stereotypical male behaviour as a denial tool, I think it would have been fairly hypocritical of me to judge or discriminate against the transgender community. Though as I'm a non-confrontational person, I'm not sure I would have had the courage to do anything about it if I saw it either. Now that I'm a more confident person in general, though, things might be different.

Ima have to go with this. I don't think I've ever really met any transgender people- and if I have I didn't realize it- so I never really paid it much thought. If I were to see any transphobic behavior, I would most likely stand up for them (unless they were like, I dunno, a bunch of 17-year-olds that could easily mutilate me if I said anything. Then I'd be a chicken and. . . do something that won't get me killed, lol X3)

For gay/lesbian people, when you were in the closet, were you ever directly asked your sexuality? How did you respond?

And I just remembered something to add on to this. . .
A while ago, last year probably, one of my friends (she's a girl, she also has a gay older brother that I've never met) asked me if I was gay/bi or whatever. I remember answering with "I dunno. . . possibly?" And. . . well, that's the closest thing I've said to "yes" in one of those situations. Lol, I wonder if she remembers that? xD

. . . It also doesn't help that my brother keeps asking me if I have a girlfriend yet, or if there are girls that I think are cute, and then he moves on to say uh. . . straight sexual remarks, I guess. That is so annoying sometimes. . . :/

 

[Esper]

Ineffable~, if you don't mind my asking, what got your sister to change her song?


I'm pretty pleased to read that everyone's cool with having a big inclusive group. Not that I doubted you. :3 I'm so pleased I want to ask a follow-up question.

How would you feel if the queer movement wanted to include other people who face discrimination, such as people who are discriminated against because of their weight, or a disability?

 

[Nakuzami]

How would you feel if the queer movement wanted to include other people who face discrimination, such as people who are discriminated against because of their weight, or a disability?

Well... I'm honestly not sure. I mean, yeah, then there'd be one huge group of people fighting against discrimination, but many of those people are discriminated against more than others, for different reasons. Some people in one group could even discriminate against someone from another group.
Though, if you could get all of those people together and have all of them fighting against discrimination... that'd be one massive group, and I guess you could start by eliminating discrimination between all of those groups, which is already quite an accomplishment.
I guess we can say I have neutral feelings for this idea?

I'm not quite sure if I said that all correctly/clearly, lol.

 

[-Jared-]

How would you feel if the queer movement wanted to include other people who face discrimination, such as people who are discriminated against because of their weight, or a disability?

I kinda feel like Nakuzami feels. Like, if it was decided that they would join us, I would be all "Sure come on in!" Because yeah, discrimination is wrong, so we don't want ANY.

On the other hand, one massive anti-discrimination group might be too large to be effective. :\ It would be difficult to keep track of everything, and some groups might harbor discriminatory feelings toward another group with the larger group. :\

Basically, I think, maybe rather than include them in the LGBTQIPAAOS group, maybe we could help them create their own group that focuses on helping them. That way, they could focus on helping themselves, which might be more effective.

I hope that makes sense. :\ I don't wanna exclude, but I think separate entities might be more effective.

 

[Ineffable~]

Ineffable~, if you don't mind my asking, what got your sister to change her song?

I honestly don't even know. She's kind of all over the place about it but lately she's given me a supportive vibe. For all I know she still thinks these things and just doesn't vocalise it any more. However living in the place she is with the people she hangs out with has changed her world view considerably from what my parents tend to think, so that may be it.


How would you feel if the queer movement wanted to include other people who face discrimination, such as people who are discriminated against because of their weight, or a disability?
Despite not really agreeing with the idea, I actually love when people propose this. It just makes me feel people are thinking the right way.
Almost nothing bothers me more than when someone says they "hate fat people" and I feel I hear it FAR more often than any gay or trans-related comments.
Regardless, I agree with Pikapal in the sense that I think it would be too large and unwieldy to join completely with groups like these; I mean after all we can ally without actually being one and the same.
Besides, I think we already fight together through things like "end discrimination" campaigns. Despite their obvious emphasis, discrimination means discrimination so when we fight against it, we fight for everyone.

Recently though I've began to wonder if I am trans. Its not something I want to think about too much at the moment, but it does play on my mind quite a bit.

What makes you think that, if you don't mind me asking?

 

[U.Flame]

Finally, internet! Time to catch up. I agree that anti-discrimination groups should stay with their subjects, like ours being sexuality. But some kind of occasional anti-discrimination get-together would be nice.

 

[Shining Raichu]

How would you feel if the queer movement wanted to include other people who face discrimination, such as people who are discriminated against because of their weight, or a disability?

While discrimination against anybody is of course wrong, I'm more cautious about grouping us together with people who face a different kind of discrimination. Being overweight in particular, discrimination aside, is a problem that needs to be fixed. It's a health issue that does require a remedy because it impacts upon the quality of life. By saying that, I'm not saying that discrimination against overweight people is justified by any means, but I have to wonder whether grouping the LGBT plight with that would send across the image that homosexuality too is a problem that needs fixing. I think that it would end up being detrimental to both causes. And that comes from someone who is gay and also used to be extremely overweight.

That said, I would be more than happy to help out in any anti-discrimination campaign, but I don't think that they should be linked together. It would be confusing for the public image.

Additionally, the LGBT community's movement is incredibly specific. In addition to ending the discrimination we face, we are also campaigning for specific rights. The right to marry, the right to serve our countries, the right to adopt etc. It doesn't make much sense for other minority groups that are discriminated against to join a fight in which they have no direct interest. Our fight is specific to us.

If all of us wronged parties wish to come together and help each other with our battles then I think that would be amazing, but for official purposes I think the causes need to remain separate.

 

[Ctrl.Alt.Geak]

What makes you think that, if you don't mind me asking?

I cant really 100% say for sure why I think this to be honest. I guess a lot of it comes from the idea that, for as long as I've been able to choose what I can wear, I've always cross-dressed and I feel its a huge compliment when someone mistakes my gender. Also I've always had a lot of hate towards my own body, especially through puberty.
Of course what makes me re-think all of this is how I cant stand the opposite sex physically (so I why would I want to change my body to that).

 

[Esper]

I honestly don't even know. She's kind of all over the place about it but lately she's given me a supportive vibe. For all I know she still thinks these things and just doesn't vocalise it any more. However living in the place she is with the people she hangs out with has changed her world view considerably from what my parents tend to think, so that may be it.

I hope she's changed her mind for the better. I know I sometimes worry that people think things and say different things and that kind of worrying is just unhealthy.

Finally, internet! Time to catch up. I agree that anti-discrimination groups should stay with their subjects, like ours being sexuality. But some kind of occasional anti-discrimination get-together would be nice.

But that's kind of what I was getting at a few posts ago. Trans people are not about sexuality (though some can be). It's about gender identity which is a separate thing even if it's sort of related. That's why I was asking about the whole mixing of different goals and groups and whether it would be good or not. Some gay people might not care so much for gender identity issues and a trans person might be more concerned with that than gay marriage.

I cant really 100% say for sure why I think this to be honest. I guess a lot of it comes from the idea that, for as long as I've been able to choose what I can wear, I've always cross-dressed and I feel its a huge compliment when someone mistakes my gender. Also I've always had a lot of hate towards my own body, especially through puberty.
Of course what makes me re-think all of this is how I cant stand the opposite sex physically (so I why would I want to change my body to that).

When you say you can't stand the opposite sex physically do you mean that 1) they are the opposite sex of the sex you were given at birth and 2) that you are not attracted to that sex or that you can't stand the thought of being that sex? I'm just a little unsure which you mean, but I can say that it's perfectly normal for someone who is trans to be attracted to one sex or the other, or both, or none at all, regardless of what their own gender is. If that is something which is making you doubt what you're feeling, well, there's no need.

Body hatred is something a lot of trans people feel, but it's also something that non-trans people feel, too, of course. (And of course there are trans people who don't feel this, and so on.) I guess what I'm trying to say is that instead of trying to pinpoint a term I'd encourage you just to do whatever you feel suits you best and not worry about the terminology. If you prefer to be thought of and addressed as one particular sex then you should let people know that. If you just want to dress a certain way without wanting other parts of your identity to be different then you should do that. I know it can be nice to say "I'm _____" and having some camaraderie with other people who are the same, but I would hope you'd be happier being true to yourself and carving out an identity for yourself. If it turns out that you're trans then good for you. If it turns out that you're asexual and genderfluid then good for you, too. As long as you're happy with yourself that's what matters.

 

[Ineffable~]

But that's kind of what I was getting at a few posts ago. Trans people are not about sexuality (though some can be). It's about gender identity which is a separate thing even if it's sort of related. That's why I was asking about the whole mixing of different goals and groups and whether it would be good or not. Some gay people might not care so much for gender identity issues and a trans person might be more concerned with that than gay marriage.

The reason I see T together with LGB is because our struggles are similar and we fight for similar rights. People who are overweight and homeless have a problem that is solvable and that they weren't born with as a condition. (I realise people can be born into homelessness or inherit the "fat gene" or be born as big babies, however you're not born at 500 pounds and you're not born at a time where you don't have plenty of your life left, like older homeless do. I hope that makes sense.) LGBT people on the other hand don't have problems and we don't need to "solve" being gay, bi, lesbian or trans. It's not unhealthy to be gay, bi, lesbian or trans. Also the general consensus is that we were born this way. (People will disagree with this but it's what most of us say, so it's general consensus.) Most importantly, however, we all face issues such as gay marriage, coming out, pride, discrimination (most people that discriminate against gay people discriminate against trans people too, at least from what I've seen) among other things. For example, a trans woman marrying a man would be legally regarded as a gay marriage if the woman hasn't changed her legal gender to female. Also, from my own perspective, in some states I can't be married to a woman and be legally regarded as female at the same time, leaving my own transition and marriage at odds. Thus I think most trans people, gay or not, will benefit from gay marriage being made legal.
. . . Sorry about the weird disorganised wall of text. ~_~

I cant really 100% say for sure why I think this to be honest. I guess a lot of it comes from the idea that, for as long as I've been able to choose what I can wear, I've always cross-dressed and I feel its a huge compliment when someone mistakes my gender. Also I've always had a lot of hate towards my own body, especially through puberty.
Of course what makes me re-think all of this is how I cant stand the opposite sex physically (so I why would I want to change my body to that).

Scarf stole most of what I was about to say but I can still be semi-helpful lol.
I can't speak completely from the perspective of a heterosexual woman since I'm not one, but I'm sure for a totally heterosexual woman it's just as disgusting the idea of having sex with a woman despite being a woman herself . . . if that makes sense. Also there are even lesbian trans women I've known that have had something similar to disgust when having sex with a woman (as a man). That is to say, she would feel horrible and depressed and start crying due to the whole position being wrong.

By all this I mean I don't think being disgusted with the opposite sex is any reason to doubt being trans. Other than that I think you should try some of Scarf's ideas. Just do whatever makes you feel comfortable.

 

[Esper]

The reason I see T together with LGB is because our struggles are similar and we fight for similar rights. People who are overweight and homeless have a problem that is solvable and that they weren't born with as a condition. (I realise people can be born into homelessness or inherit the "fat gene" or be born as big babies, however you're not born at 500 pounds and you're not born at a time where you don't have plenty of your life left, like older homeless do. I hope that makes sense.) LGBT people on the other hand don't have problems and we don't need to "solve" being gay, bi, lesbian or trans. It's not unhealthy to be gay, bi, lesbian or trans. Also the general consensus is that we were born this way. (People will disagree with this but it's what most of us say, so it's general consensus.) Most importantly, however, we all face issues such as gay marriage, coming out, pride, discrimination (most people that discriminate against gay people discriminate against trans people too, at least from what I've seen) among other things. For example, a trans woman marrying a man would be legally regarded as a gay marriage if the woman hasn't changed her legal gender to female. Also, from my own perspective, in some states I can't be married to a woman and be legally regarded as female at the same time, leaving my own transition and marriage at odds. Thus I think most trans people, gay or not, will benefit from gay marriage being made legal.
. . . Sorry about the weird disorganised wall of text. ~_~

That wasn't disorganized. Don't worry. And I pretty much agree with everything you said.

Now I'm kind of regretting using overweight people as my example though. I wanted to bring up the idea of gay rights in conjunction with women's rights and the rights of racial minorities since those are people who can face discrimination for something that they shouldn't. I just didn't want to turn the conversation toward a discussion about feminism and racism since, I dunno, I didn't think people would want to talk about those topics here.

 

[Oryx]

That wasn't disorganized. Don't worry. And I pretty much agree with everything you said.

Now I'm kind of regretting using overweight people as my example though. I wanted to bring up the idea of gay rights in conjunction with women's rights and the rights of racial minorities since those are people who can face discrimination for something that they shouldn't. I just didn't want to turn the conversation toward a discussion about feminism and racism since, I dunno, I didn't think people would want to talk about those topics here.

As far as sexism, I feel like that is included in a way. I mean, many lesbians prefer to be more 'butch' which brings up the issues of whether or not that's how a 'real' woman acts, etc. So I feel like while the issue itself might not often be included in name, it's always implicitly involved in LGBT issues.

As far as racism, I honestly think that that issue is strongest on its own. While people still openly can say "I think gay marriage is wrong", it's pretty much an accepted truth (at least among the educated) that for example being against interracial marriage is wrong and such. Because it's been so widely accepted that being racist is 'wrong', while for LGBT issues it's not as widely accepted yet, I feel bundling the two together would weaken the stance that racism takes because instead of people seeing the connection and taking as strong a stance about LGBT issues, they might instead see the connection and take a less strong stance on racism issues.

 

[Ineffable~]

That wasn't disorganized. Don't worry. And I pretty much agree with everything you said.

Yay. :3

As far as sexism, I feel like that is included in a way. I mean, many lesbians prefer to be more 'butch' which brings up the issues of whether or not that's how a 'real' woman acts, etc. So I feel like while the issue itself might not often be included in name, it's always implicitly involved in LGBT issues.

As far as racism, I honestly think that that issue is strongest on its own. While people still openly can say "I think gay marriage is wrong", it's pretty much an accepted truth (at least among the educated) that for example being against interracial marriage is wrong and such. Because it's been so widely accepted that being racist is 'wrong', while for LGBT issues it's not as widely accepted yet, I feel bundling the two together would weaken the stance that racism takes because instead of people seeing the connection and taking as strong a stance about LGBT issues, they might instead see the connection and take a less strong stance on racism issues.

This this this omg.

. . . To keep this from being a spam post I'll just say I also think racial minorities and women/men are just too "common". I mean I would be incredibly surprised at anyone who's never seen a male or a female in their life, and racial minorities, despite being minorities, are quite common in America. My point being LGBT people are not all over the map like some people, and people often don't have to think about the issue at all because they don't meet gay or trans people. Also, even if they did meet gay or trans people, they wouldn't know it because it's not a "visible" condition. The only way you can perfectly tell if someone is gay is if they either tell you or they walk around with their significant other being cute. I have known tonnes of people who claim to have never met a lesbian before me, and at least four people in this thread have never met a trans person before (and probably WAY more than that).

 

[Esper]

As far as sexism, I feel like that is included in a way. I mean, many lesbians prefer to be more 'butch' which brings up the issues of whether or not that's how a 'real' woman acts, etc. So I feel like while the issue itself might not often be included in name, it's always implicitly involved in LGBT issues.

As far as racism, I honestly think that that issue is strongest on its own. While people still openly can say "I think gay marriage is wrong", it's pretty much an accepted truth (at least among the educated) that for example being against interracial marriage is wrong and such. Because it's been so widely accepted that being racist is 'wrong', while for LGBT issues it's not as widely accepted yet, I feel bundling the two together would weaken the stance that racism takes because instead of people seeing the connection and taking as strong a stance about LGBT issues, they might instead see the connection and take a less strong stance on racism issues.

I think it's interesting that when I used the terms "women's rights" and "feminism" you used the term "sexism". Just observing.

But before I totally derail this thread I do want to point out that the gay rights movement as a whole has a very white face and there are some varying levels of, if not racism, then racial ... ignorance? ... within it. Like a gay friend of mine has told me that there a lot of gay men who have a "no fats, no Asians" policy when it comes to dating and are very public about this. I personally don't like to see other issues/groups getting sidelined for one group's cause.

 

[Ineffable~]

Like a gay friend of mine has told me that there a lot of gay men who have a "no fats, no Asians" policy when it comes to dating and are very public about this. I personally don't like to see other issues/groups getting sidelined for one group's cause.

Gay people excluding or being racist is its own problem. I don't think there's an immediate solution to this unfortunately. :(

I think the only way we could "give LGBT less of a white face" is by just individually participating more in general anti-discrimination stuff, i.e. focusing on ALL anti-discrimination. That's what I'm all about. :P We, as LGBT people that aren't racist, can try and go out and show how we don't want any discrimination ever. Try to emphasise this on your own terms by doing your own good things. However you can't get white racist people to care about minorities . . . you just can't do it.

 

[Ctrl.Alt.Geak]

When you say you can't stand the opposite sex physically do you mean that 1) they are the opposite sex of the sex you were given at birth and 2) that you are not attracted to that sex or that you can't stand the thought of being that sex? I'm just a little unsure which you mean, but I can say that it's perfectly normal for someone who is trans to be attracted to one sex or the other, or both, or none at all, regardless of what their own gender is. If that is something which is making you doubt what you're feeling, well, there's no need.

Body hatred is something a lot of trans people feel, but it's also something that non-trans people feel, too, of course. (And of course there are trans people who don't feel this, and so on.) I guess what I'm trying to say is that instead of trying to pinpoint a term I'd encourage you just to do whatever you feel suits you best and not worry about the terminology. If you prefer to be thought of and addressed as one particular sex then you should let people know that. If you just want to dress a certain way without wanting other parts of your identity to be different then you should do that. I know it can be nice to say "I'm _____" and having some camaraderie with other people who are the same, but I would hope you'd be happier being true to yourself and carving out an identity for yourself. If it turns out that you're trans then good for you. If it turns out that you're asexual and genderfluid then good for you, too. As long as you're happy with yourself that's what matters.

When I say I cannot stand the opposite sex physically, I mean 1) I was born female and I cannot stand the sight of the male body whatsoever and 2) because I cannot stand males physically as much as I do, I am concerned that I would abousolutely hate looking at myself in the mirror.
However, while I am attracted to females I really cannot stand being in a female body either and am constantly trying to appear to be as masculine as possible and prefer to be adressed by male pronouns.

Maybe I should have just said that to begin with.

I really do appreciate your and Ineffable's input though :)

 

[magma_wolf]

Well, before figuring out how, do you think it would be safe to tell your parents? That's the most important thing to ask before you decide if you should. I'm probably sounding overly cautious, but you never know.

If you're going to tell them then you could do it in person or by some other means if you don't feel you can tell them directly (like by calling them or something). I would think it would be better to tell them in person though unless you really don't think you could. You can also think about telling one of them before the other, or another family member first. If you have anyone else you might think would be more sympathetic (and could maybe stand by you when you tell your parents) that could be a big help. You'd have someone to support you and you'd already have gone through the coming out process with someone in your family/someone you're close to.

But yeah, it's not something that we can really advice on without knowing your situation. We wouldn't want to give you bad advice on accident.

well my mom probaly has figured it out so im not worried about her. but my dad hates gay men but loves lesbians so i dont know what i should do

 

[Esper]

When I say I cannot stand the opposite sex physically, I mean 1) I was born female and I cannot stand the sight of the male body whatsoever and 2) because I cannot stand males physically as much as I do, I am concerned that I would abousolutely hate looking at myself in the mirror.
However, while I am attracted to females I really cannot stand being in a female body either and am constantly trying to appear to be as masculine as possible and prefer to be adressed by male pronouns.

Maybe I should have just said that to begin with.

I really do appreciate your and Ineffable's input though :)

I can understand you not wanting to go into detail though, especially with strangers, so it's okay you didn't say that to begin with. Your situation is one that I don't think there is a single term to describe (at least not one I know of) so like I said before, just do what makes you happiest. It sounds like you know what you want and that's good.

well my mom probaly has figured it out so im not worried about her. but my dad hates gay men but loves lesbians so i dont know what i should do

Well, again, we don't want to give you the wrong advice, but if you think your mom would be supportive you could have her be with you when/if you tell your dad. If you're close with your dad then I would think he'd be able to get over himself once he realized you're family. I know enough people who worried about telling their dads only to have very anti-climactic coming out stories. But anyway, if/when you decide to tell him you could always plan to have a travel bag of clothes and things ready and a friend who'll let you stay over for a night or two. Just in case.