Timeline discussion

[wombateiro]

I made this thread to continue timeline discussion because it was off-topic in all previous threads it was discussed in.

The main point of this discussion is if R/S/E take place after B2/W2.

Yes Steven makes a comment about the Hoenn Protags. It was a reference, the same things you used to justify music as a coincidence. If it wasn't a reference he wouldn't have said that. They also wouldn't have included the Lanette/Bill work, nor would they have acknowledged that Bill and Lanette were co creators of the PC System.

Interesting thing is that in HG/SS, Steven still calls himself a Champion. If he would be already beaten by Hoenn protagonists or replaced by Wallace, he wouldn't say that. In HG/SS and B/W Cynthia doesn't call herself Champion because she lost title to Sinnoh protagonists. Also, she stays half of year in Unova, so it also shows she doesn't have Champion duties anymore, unlike Steven who says in HG/SS that he was away from League for too long.

Steven doesn't say anything that is directly about Hoenn protagonists. The main sentence which fans consider to be about them is: "Especially the ones who gave me tough battles..." This sentence is written in such way to remind about R/S/E, but only if somebody played those games, it doesn't directly indicate that events from R/S/E have already happened because Steven could be talking about any trainer.

They included Lanette/Bill work to somehow connect R/S/E with FR/LG. Again, there's no proof to timeline because in R/S/E Bill is only mentioned to work with Lanette sometime before R/S/E. It could any time, but clearly before R/S/E. Their work is shown to be already done during R/S/E storyline.

Why would they make a game that is so far in the time line so early?

Because they most likely have already planned all games timeline from the beginning of the Pokemon series. They most likely made R/S/E so early to remake them in gen 5 or later with timeline connections to newest games, including Dream World usage, most likely in Devon Corp.

Why were the new Special Pokeballs that were invented in Gen 3 still in Gen 4 if Devon Corp hadn't invented them yet?

Those things seem to be messed up in timeline. Timer and Repeat balls, said to be just invented in R/S/E, are available to be bought in FR/LG, while Masterball, said to be a top-secret prototype in FR/LG, is available to be won in R/S/E. It's also in Aqua/Magma base for some reason.
So maybe those items are not canon? Maybe in R/S/E they just wanted to show Devon inventing something during storyline and in R/S remakes they will replace those inventions with something more updated like Dream World machine or something else. Timer and Repeat balls won't be really worth to be focused on in R/S remakes, like they were in original R/S/E, because there are new types of Pokeballs and other mechanics introduced in gens 4 and 5.

 

[Xander Olivieri]

Bill and Lanette, both their systems were finished before both respective story lines, that doesn't disprove that both were made at the same time, and FRLG further support it by linking RSE with FRLG with Bill and Celio connecting Hoenn to Kanto with Lanette's help.

Yes in Black 2 and White 2 Cynthia is still referred to as the Champion of Sinnoh. Steven is still the Champion because he was Champion in two games while Wallace was Gym Leader in the same two. Emerald's storyline conflicts with Ruby and Sapphire's so they had to choose which to use. They obviously chose Ruby and Sapphire.

Steven makes a reference to the Hoenn Protagonists in HG/SS. It may be a small reference, but it is clearer reference than anything supporting Gen 3 is anywhere other than with Gen 1's story line.

All sources also support the current placement using all the same evidence we posted to support its current placement.

As for planning, they finish one game and start on the next. They don't plan that far ahead. They borrowed Munna from Generation 1. They borrowed the Dream idea from Generation 3. Devon Corp's Dream Machine and Gen 5's Dream world are also vastly different. Munna's ability closer resembles Gen 3's Dream Machine as it is only to show dreams of Pokemon, not send them to another world and then materialize Pokemon and Items they find there in the game world.

With the above, Munna's design Gen 1, Munna's power Gen 3. References from those two games. Long shot, but Munna itself symbolizes that Gens 1 and 3 are together.

Though you'll just ignore these cause it doesn't fit in with what you want. This discussion is pretty much pointless cause all we are going to do is constantly repeat the same things over and over and neither side is gunna accept the other side.

 

[Killjoy]

Some stories, with deep and complex narrative would benefit from a layered time line like you suggest, but Pokémon doesn't exactly fit the description.

In Pokémon, you're a young dude who wakes up, gets a Pokémon, battles the gyms, beats the bad guys, and then challenges the league; I just described every Pokémon game to date. The designers have no reason to add in a twist like your suggesting, especially if they aren't going to spell it out clearly for the fans.

Franky, I'm with Xander on this; their are so many things to suggest the generations are to be told in order, and the few minute details that might say otherwise are likely just oversights by the designers.

 

[voicerocker]

Because they most likely have already planned all games timeline from the beginning of the Pokemon series..

There's no way possible that they specifically planned out every single Pokemon game from the start.

Found this on Wikipedia about Red and Green.

Pokémon Red and Green took six years to produce, and nearly bankrupted Game Freak in the process

Once the games were finished, very few media outlets gave it attention, believing the Game Boy was a dead console; a general lack of interest of merchandising convinced Tajiri that Nintendo would reject the games.[2] The Pokémon games were not expected to do well, but sales steadily increased until the series found itself among Nintendo's top franchises

Do you mean to say that 22 years ago in 1990, ALL these games were specifically planned out?

If the creator himself doubted the success of the very first games, would it make sense that they had planned the entire series out already? No.

 

[wombateiro]

I didn't mean they have planned all storylines in every detail from the beginning. I was thinking about general story concepts and their placements in general timeline. If that planning wasn't done during 1 gen development, it probably was done after success of gen 1, seeing how Pokemon franchise turned out to be money maker for long time.

Story concepts are getting more mature every generation, so I doubt they have randomly made them in that order. I think that during the time of making gen 2, they fought of all story concepts starting from gen 2 (day/night, land/sea, time/space, yin/yang and potential future ones) and decided about their order of using them in games.

I think the same about planning timeline order. I'd say gen 1 is first and alone in timeline because it was most likely fought of before all other generations. Then I'd say gens 2 and 4 take place at similar time for D/P/Pt and HG/SS timeline connection and gens 3 and 5 take place at similar time for B/W, B2/W2 and R/S remakes timeline connection.

 

[Xander Olivieri]

Except Fire Red and Leaf Green have Hoenn references and Ruby, Sapphire and Emerald have Kanto references and a side by side plot that links the two together through Bill and Lanette as well as Bill, Ceilo and Lanette. People that have been making the story line for the fan base found all the same similarities that we did and all came to the same conclusion that Gen 3 and Gen 1 happen in the same time frame.

Gens 2, 4, and 5 are the only ones that the creators came flat out and said had a time line. When Gen 5 came out they said it was a few years after all the others. I don't remember where it was said, but Gen 5 was a full reset of the game world, they already hinted that it comes after all four previous generations.

 

[wombateiro]

Except Fire Red and Leaf Green have Hoenn references and Ruby, Sapphire and Emerald have Kanto references and a side by side plot that links the two together through Bill and Lanette as well as Bill, Ceilo and Lanette. People that have been making the story line for the fan base found all the same similarities that we did and all came to the same conclusion that Gen 3 and Gen 1 happen in the same time frame.

Of course R/S/E and FR/LG have characters references to each other, because they are in the same generation, but they don't clearly indicate timeline because Bill and Lanatte created PC system before all games, so it could be any time.

My question is - what people of fan base will say about timeline after R/S will be remade in gen 5 or 6 with references to B/W and B2/W2 or 6 gen game? They obviously will have references because of being in one generation.

Gens 2, 4, and 5 are the only ones that the creators came flat out and said had a time line. When Gen 5 came out they said it was a few years after all the others. I don't remember where it was said, but Gen 5 was a full reset of the game world, they already hinted that it comes after all four previous generations.

They also said that 5 gen is reset because of having only 5 gen Pokemon in pre-game. Now we know that this idea is cancelled in B2/W2. With having R/S remakes that idea will be cancelled also in case of timeline.

 

[Xander Olivieri]

They also said that 5 gen is reset because of having only 5 gen Pokemon in pre-game. Now we know that this idea is cancelled in B2/W2. With having R/S remakes that idea will be cancelled also in case of timeline.

Who said the reset was canceled? B2w2 do something that has never been done to this level and prove the reset happened. BW had no previous Pokemon in the main game. B2W2 are exactly like GSC except we stay in the same region this time. The reset was done and is continued.

There still isn't any proof that Gen 3 is related to anything other than Gen 1 timeline wise.

 

[The Zororoaster]

In R/S/E there is a scientist at Devon Corp that says that he is working on combining a Pokemon with a machine. In B/W we have Genesect. This is one detail that supports B/W coming after R/S/E. Plus it just makes sense. I think the storyline order coincides with the order of release.

 

[Xander Olivieri]

In R/S/E there is a scientist at Devon Corp that says that he is working on combining a Pokemon with a machine. In B/W we have Genesect. This is one detail that supports B/W coming after R/S/E. Plus it just makes sense. I think the storyline order coincides with the order of release.

Only issue with that is remakes who then associate older Gens with newer Gens, which is what its currently linked with anyway. Stories of the Remakes and the originals are the same with some edits, but its the same story flow, them being released with later games is part of why they are linked as they are.

 

[wombateiro]

Wallace replacing Steven and Juan appearing as Gym Leader are most likely canon events because all third games seem to have canon events. It was already proven that Crystal and Platinum have canon events. I think R/S remakes are going to prove that about Emerald as well. If Emerald will be proven to be canon - it will indicate that R/S/E take place after B2/W2 because of Hoenn Champion change.

I wonder why Game Freak would make that change of Champion and introduction of Juan in Emerald, if they wouldn't want to keep those changes as canon.

 

[Xander Olivieri]

Wallace replacing Steven and Juan appearing as Gym Leader are most likely canon events because all third games seem to have canon events. It was already proven that Crystal and Platinum have canon events. I think R/S remakes are going to prove that about Emerald as well. If Emerald will be proven to be canon - it will indicate that R/S/E take place after B2/W2 because of Hoenn Champion change.

I wonder why Game Freak would make that change of Champion and introduction of Juan in Emerald, if they wouldn't want to keep those changes as canon.

The other third games also don't override the two main games of the older ones. They have showed Steven as Champion twice, meaning that they are following Ruby and Sapphire's Story.

Again, They do NOT plan that far ahead. Ruby, Sapphire, and Emerald are before Black and White, and coupled with Red, Blue, Yellow, Leaf Green, and Fire Red. There are more facts supporting it than anything else.

 

[wombateiro]

The other third games also don't override the two main games of the older ones. They have showed Steven as Champion twice, meaning that they are following Ruby and Sapphire's Story.

That doesn't really mean they will be following unchanged R/S story in remakes.
It's possible that Steven will be Champion in first run and later get replaced by Wallace, kinda like N and Ghetsis were "Champions" in first run and later got replaced by Alder.

Imo R/S/E seem to be planned to be remade in 5 gen from the time they were developed because they are the only no-5 gen games capable of having Champion change put in their remakes' storyline. Also, they are the only no-5 gen games to have completely different music for Gym Leaders and Elite Four.

 

[Xander Olivieri]

That doesn't really mean they will be following unchanged R/S story in remakes.
It's possible that Steven will be Champion in first run and later get replaced by Wallace, kinda like N and Ghetsis were "Champions" in first run and later got replaced by Alder.

Imo R/S/E seem to be planned to be remade in 5 gen from the time they were developed because they are the only no-5 gen games capable of having Champion change put in their remakes' storyline. Also, they are the only no-5 gen games to have completely different music for Gym Leaders and Elite Four.

N and Ghetsis were never Champions in Black and White. What unearthly thought gave you the idea that they were? N never even competed in the league and had no badges. All N did was Beat Alder to show his ideals and talents were superior to the current Champion. Alder never lost his Champion Title which was why he was still Champion at the Post Game rematch. N was simply the Bad Guy Team boss like Giovanni, like Pluton, like Archie/Maxie, like Cyrus. Only difference, Plasma's Story did not end before the Final Gym battle and went even further that you had to beat the Elite Four.

Again, No Gen 3 was not planned that far. Neither was Gen 5. They don't start working on their games until the last one is finished. Gen 5 wasn't thought up until Gen 4 was pretty much done.

You also wrote off music already when someone linked music against Gen 3 being anywhere other than where you said it was. You discredited Music as a source so you can't use Music as a source.

Yes the fact that they still use Steven as Champion pretty much means Steven will be the Champion in the Remakes, because they will be Remakes of Ruby and Sapphire.

All we are doing now is beating a dead horse.

 

[wombateiro]

N and Ghetsis were never Champions in Black and White. What unearthly thought gave you the idea that they were? N never even competed in the league and had no badges. All N did was Beat Alder to show his ideals and talents were superior to the current Champion. Alder never lost his Champion Title which was why he was still Champion at the Post Game rematch. N was simply the Bad Guy Team boss like Giovanni, like Pluton, like Archie/Maxie, like Cyrus. Only difference, Plasma's Story did not end before the Final Gym battle and went even further that you had to beat the Elite Four.

Again, No Gen 3 was not planned that far. Neither was Gen 5. They don't start working on their games until the last one is finished. Gen 5 wasn't thought up until Gen 4 was pretty much done.

Yes the fact that they still use Steven as Champion pretty much means Steven will be the Champion in the Remakes, because they will be Remakes of Ruby and Sapphire.

All we are doing now is beating a dead horse.

Even if N and Ghetsis aren't official Champions, they are the last opponents after Elite Four, the same like to every other Champion. They act like Champions in first run and in later get replaced by Alder. Similar thing can be done in R/S remakes - Steven in first run and Wallace in post-game. The only difference would be that you wouldn't have to beat Elite Four for the second time to get to Hall of Fame, so battling Wallace would be optional. And Steven would be available for rematch with stronger team in Meteor Falls.

R/S remakes should keep standard of B/W - having different opponents after Elite Four in first run and post-game and different music for Elite Four and Gym Leaders. Seeing how those thing exist only in gens 3 and 5, it can be said that general concept of gen 5 was planned already during gen 3 development.

You also wrote off music already when someone linked music against Gen 3 being anywhere other than where you said it was. You discredited Music as a source so you can't use Music as a source.

Are you talking about music in Villa in Platinum? I discredited that one because it was too obviously similar to Lilycove music. It was used because the previous owner of that Villa was Steven,so they wanted to somehow remind of Hoenn.
Gym Leaders music of Hoenn and Unova are different example because they are very similar in track composition, not in melody.
Why I can't use music as source? Because I discredited one example? That's not fair logic.

 

[Xander Olivieri]

Even if N and Ghetsis aren't official Champions, they are the last opponents after Elite Four, the same like to every other Champion. They act like Champions in first run and in later get replaced by Alder. Similar thing can be done in R/S remakes - Steven in first run and Wallace in post-game. The only difference would be that you wouldn't have to beat Elite Four for the second time to get to Hall of Fame, so battling Wallace would be optional. And Steven would be available for rematch with stronger team in Meteor Falls.

R/S remakes should keep standard of B/W - having different opponents after Elite Four in first run and post-game and different music for Elite Four and Gym Leaders. Seeing how those thing exist only in gens 3 and 5, it can be said that general concept of gen 5 was planned already during gen 3 development.

They are not, were not, and will never be Champions. No they do NOT act like champion. They did not replace Alder. They would not do a change that drastic with the games. If Ruby and Sapphire were remade we'd have one Champion, and all the clues are saying its Steven.

B/W have ONE Champion, that did NOT change. It still followed the same standard as all the other games. And again NO Gen 5 was NOT planned any time BEFORE Gen 4. Stop beating a dead horse.

 

[wombateiro]

They are not, were not, and will never be Champions. No they do NOT act like champion. They did not replace Alder. They would not do a change that drastic with the games. If Ruby and Sapphire were remade we'd have one Champion, and all the clues are saying its Steven.

B/W have ONE Champion, that did NOT change. It still followed the same standard as all the other games. And again NO Gen 5 was NOT planned any time BEFORE Gen 4. Stop beating a dead horse.

I know B/W have one official Champion, who is Alder, but that doesn't change the fact that B/W are the first games ever to have different opponents after Elite Four in first run and later in post-game. That was excellent twist of plot, something that was never done before. To keep standard of B/W, R/S remakes should also surprise us with something, so replacing Steven with Wallace in post-game would do that surprise. Maybe beating Champion Wallace in post-game will be needed to learn that Steven has retired and that would unlock rematch with Steven in Meteor Falls. Great opportunity to provide twist of plot in R/S remakes.


Are you working for Game Freak that you are so confident how they planned things? I don't work for them, so I can't say I'm 100% right but think about it - if they would be thinking about concept of next gen only when current gen has been finished, story concepts most likely wouldn't be getting more mature every generation. They obviously have been saving the best story concepts for later games. Imo it's very naively to say that story concepts' order of putting into games is coincidental.

 

[Xander Olivieri]

Imo it's very naively to say that story concepts' order of putting into games is coincidental.

Ok...This one sentence just destroyed your entire arguement cause you have been saying that their placement WAS a coincidence.

Story Concepts' Order is
Gen 1
Gen 2
Gen 3
Gen 4
Gen 5

By this that means Story of Gen 2 comes after story of Gen 1. Story of Gen 3 comes after Gen 2 and Gen 1. Story of Gen 4 comes after Gen 3's, gen 2's and Gen 1's. Gen 4 proves this wrong because Gen 4's story is at the same time as Gen 2's story based on information in Gen 4.


The other issue with it are Remakes. Since Remakes were with their Paired Time Line Generation, that would make the time lines match up. So Gens 1 and 3 would be linked just as Gen 2 and 4 are linked, by that sentence alone.

Every argument against your's were "Coincidences". Everything outside of official say so is Coincidence.

They did not start on Gen 5, concept, idea, or application until midway through Generation 4. I believe they said that they started on it two or three years before it was finished. Which means they started it in 2007 or 2008. That's a Year or two AFTER Diamond and Pearl. They took references from older games such as Munna's design from the original Generation 1 games, as described by the picknicker outside of Rock Tunnel, A Pudgy, pink Pokemon with floral print, and gave it the ability of a device the Devon researcher was working on to "VIEW" dream of Pokemon.

Is it a coincidence that they took both of these designs and put them together in one Pokemon? Yes. But if it isn't, knowing that Munna was not designed back in Gen 1 and didn't exist in Gen 3, why would they use that one Pokemon to link two game generations? Maybe since its not a coincidence that Gen 1 and Gen 3 are linked together.

Since its not a coincidence, all the facts that was pushed away because they were minor or coincidental means that they are in fact hints to link Gen 3 and Gen 1. You just proved our argument for us seeing as all of our arguments were just Coincidental findings.

 

[wombateiro]

Ok...This one sentence just destroyed your entire arguement cause you have been saying that their placement WAS a coincidence.

Story Concepts' Order is
Gen 1
Gen 2
Gen 3
Gen 4
Gen 5

By this that means Story of Gen 2 comes after story of Gen 1. Story of Gen 3 comes after Gen 2 and Gen 1. Story of Gen 4 comes after Gen 3's, gen 2's and Gen 1's. Gen 4 proves this wrong because Gen 4's story is at the same time as Gen 2's story based on information in Gen 4.

*facepalm* This time I've been talking about order of producing games, not their timeline. I meant that it doesn't look coincidental that story concepts are getting more mature every generation because they were most likely planned and sorted out since producing gen 2 or maybe even gen 1. That sentence was not about timeline. You really thought I would so randomly change my view about timeline?

They did not start on Gen 5, concept, idea, or application until midway through Generation 4. I believe they said that they started on it two or three years before it was finished. Which means they started it in 2007 or 2008.

They said that about producing game, not planning story concept.

 

[Xander Olivieri]

*facepalm* This time I've been talking about order of producing games, not their timeline. I meant that it doesn't look coincidental that story concepts are getting more mature every generation because they were most likely planned and sorted out since producing gen 2 or maybe even gen 1. That sentence was not about timeline. You really thought I would so randomly change my view about timeline?



They said that about producing game, not planning story concept.

No I didn't. The games still aren't started on, idea, concept, anything until they've finished the previous Main games. As stated with my Black and White info. They said they didn't START anything for Black and White until two or three years before the release, which means that nothing about Black and White were being worked on until a year or so after Diamond and Pearl were completed.

And yes it still had something to do with your argument because you've stated on multiple accounts that the games were conceived before their times started, which Gamefreak has stated to be not true. I and a few others have said that the games are not started, Idea, Concept, what ever you want to call it, until they finished the last game. So Black and white weren't thought up in generation 3, like you've said before.

They games are made, thought up, designed, how ever you want to twist the word around, after the last one was finished.