5th Gen TMs & HMs Discussion

[Karel_Kazuki]

tl;dr -- Badges are licenses. You try to use Scyther's sharp blades to cut down a shrub that blocks your path. A police officer comes along and asks you for your license. You show them your badge. That's how it's supposed to work in the games.

THANK YOU.
What you are trying to explain is doing nothing but wasting memory on the Game Card.WE ALL KNOW THATS WHAT BADGES ARE FOR.(sorry for caps, I'm Lazy right now.)

Why else would Gym Leaders take the time to say "Pokemon up to(insert level cap here)can now obey you."Thats a sign showing that they are capable of listening to you and they show whatever you are talking about enough to use the HM.

 

[Sammuthegreat]

tl;dr -- Badges are licenses. You try to use Scyther's sharp blades to cut down a shrub that blocks your path. A police officer comes along and asks you for your license. You show them your badge. That's how it's supposed to work in the games.

THANK YOU.
What you are trying to explain is doing nothing but wasting memory on the Game Card.WE ALL KNOW THATS WHAT BADGES ARE FOR.(sorry for caps, I'm Lazy right now.)

Why else would Gym Leaders take the time to say "Pokemon up to(insert level cap here)can now obey you."Thats a sign showing that they are capable of listening to you and they show whatever you are talking about enough to use the HM.

OH. MY. GOD. I'm sorry I'm getting so frustrated but you're just not getting what I'm saying. I'll try and spell it out as clearly as I can, because I've clearly not done so yet.

Badges = Licences. Yes. I get that. I knew that from the start. I honestly don't give a flying !"($* what you call the things, "licence" was just a placeholder name. I wish I'd said badges instead of licences now, because it honestly makes no difference to me, they perform the same function. I want to keep the system whereby you can't use an HM move outside of battle before you earn a certain badge.

That wasn't even my original point. Now I've clarified that I already understood from the very beginning everything you've said, I can try to make my actual point a bit more clearly.

What I do not like about the game is that you are forced to teach your Pokemon a move in order for them to be capable of performing an action that they should be able to do naturally. It doesn't make any sense to me. To go back to my original example, there's no reason whatsoever that a Seaking should need to be taught how to swim. It's a fish, for God's sake. It knows how to already. Similarly, a Scyther already knows how to cut things; it has scythes for arms. It should not need to be taught how to cut things. A Pidgeot is a bird. It should not need to be taught how to Fly.

Now do you understand my point?

If there were no HMs, then this bizarre piece of illogic would no longer exist in the games. Your Pidgeot has always been able to Fly, but only once you earn Badge X are you allowed to use it outside of battle. If you have to teach a Pidgeot how to use Fly, then that suggests that the Pidgeot did not know how to fly beforehand, which is ludicrous.

Note that this system is exactly the same as the current system in that you need badges (NOT LICENCES, just to avoid confusion) to perform certain actions. But your Seaking ceases to be a fish that doesn't naturally understand how to swim.

I'm not suggesting any sort of major overhaul to the battle system, and this would not take up any extra memory on the game chip. I would like the current HM moves - Surf, Strength etc. - to remain in-battle moves. I just do not understand the logic behind making them moves that have to be taught in order for you to use them outside of battle.

I hope you understand now. Just please don't quote me and then state how "badge" and "licence" mean the same thing, because I might just have a stroke.

 

[Dominus Temporis]

Also, I highly doubt you can transfer items over. You couldn't in Pal Park. (to my knowledge)

Um... yes you can. My multiple legitimately-gained Master Balls gotten from this method in Diamond are proof of that. Go try it yourself if you don't believe me.

I'm gonna say what I said the first time- we'll have the same TM set as the last generation (except maybe some HMs changed to different moves), along with some added TMs. That's the only way they can keep proper continuity with cross-gen transfers.

 

[austy14]

I would atleast like forgettable HMs, so that if you went into some deep forest, got to the exit, needed cut to get through, and the only pokemon in your party that could use it was your best pokemon (you know, something you don't want to teach cut to) and you don't have to waste your time going to a move deleter and you can just replace it with either a TM or the next move your pokemon learns. Either that or a move deleter item.

If they did this, you could surf to a little sandbar and make your surf pokemon forget surf. Then you would be stranded... unless you taught it again which completely defeats the purpose. That's why they made HMs unforgettable. Also lets say you were in the middle of surfing and you made the Pokemon forget it... would you just drown? Your Pokemon can't swim anymore! You'd be stuck, again.

And for Pokemon holding TMs... they could make them not allowed, the way HM knowing Pokemon weren't allowed to transfer to D/P/Pt.

 

[Karel_Kazuki]

While I understand Your arguement, As I always have,then what would be the point of straegically having a moveset that only allows for moves?That is part of the strategy of the game.Knowing what HMS are good for what pokemon and having a team that can dominate while having said HMs.Its all apart of the trategy Game Freak has Subliminally designed for us to have.If that was possible, I would feel pretty much cheated that, "Why couldnt Cut be a move? or something?"We know that the HMS are powerful moves and you are making them sound like skills.IIf that were the Case, then we could never be able to use fly in battle because its only four moves a set and with the powerful SURF or FLY out of the way(which is one of my favorite moves),Then it would be a free space for moves.I guess I understand the idea, but it wouldnt just feel right now that game freak is far in the game.

 

[austy14]

I think some pokemon should just be able to have the obvious ability, like birds flying and fish swimming. But you have a choice to teach the move! Though that's probably too much to ask and would be weird.

 

[Sammuthegreat]

While I understand Your arguement, As I always have,then what would be the point of straegically having a moveset that only allows for moves?That is part of the strategy of the game.Knowing what HMS are good for what pokemon and having a team that can dominate while having said HMs.Its all apart of the trategy Game Freak has Subliminally designed for us to have.If that was possible, I would feel pretty much cheated that, "Why couldnt Cut be a move? or something?"We know that the HMS are powerful moves and you are making them sound like skills.IIf that were the Case, then we could never be able to use fly in battle because its only four moves a set and with the powerful SURF or FLY out of the way(which is one of my favorite moves),Then it would be a free space for moves.I guess I understand the idea, but it wouldnt just feel right now that game freak is far in the game.

Aha, now we're getting somewhere. Apologies for getting so worked up if you understood my point all along.

As for your point, I agree. Why shouldn't Fly and Cut and Strength all still be moves? I'm totally on board with that, which is what austy14 suggests in this post:

I think some pokemon should just be able to have the obvious ability, like birds flying and fish swimming. But you have a choice to teach the move! Though that's probably too much to ask and would be weird.

I personally don't think it's weird. Current HMs could be "relegated" to normal TM status, so the in-battle moves Surf, Fly etc. are still just that - in-battle moves, like any other ordinary attack. The out-of-battle part of the moves, however, does not need to be taught; it isn't even a move, it's more just an ability.

Again, to hark back to my very first post on the matter, I don't think this will happen in Black and White, if ever. I just personally feel it would make so much more sense than the system GameFreak did decide to use, and I wish they'd used this system way back in Red/Green/Blue.

 

[MistahDude]

Well I honestly don't see why this would turn out to be the case. It would make building teams a much harder aspect for people, and I don't see why they'd make it harder. What I personally don't hope they would do is screw with the method of obtaining TMs such as they did with HG/SS with the removal of the game corner. >> Lets keep this game American and American only.

Those who live in Europe have their own versions of the game(I hope I'm not causing offense to anyone in Europe, it's not your fault, it's NoE most likely), and people in America have theirs.

I was talking about higher prices for TMs and possibly higher point values in Battle Frontier places.

 

[Ho-Oh]

I think some pokemon should just be able to have the obvious ability, like birds flying and fish swimming. But you have a choice to teach the move! Though that's probably too much to ask and would be weird.

Yeah but then that won't cover the other water/flying types, who fit into that category but aren't birds or fish. Then that'd mean Geodude, etc, would need to naturally have strength and since they aren't creatures...

 

[Sammuthegreat]

Yeah but then that won't cover the other water/flying types, who fit into that category but aren't birds or fish. Then that'd mean Geodude, etc, would need to naturally have strength and since they aren't creatures...

It'd be very easy to do. Think about it - currently there is a list of Pokemon that can learn Surf. Those would be the Pokemon that would have the "ability" to swim. Similarly Strength, Cut and all the other HMs.

 

[Ho-Oh]

Yeah but that post was in relation to real-life things, such as fish literally swimming, etc.

It could work if it wasn't based entirely on real-life (for that idea, at least).

 

[Westie7]

Reusable TMs, eh?

This is both good and bad for me. It means we're probably going to have to try a lot harder to find them, but they're reusable. So helpful and harmful.

For HMs, as long as we still have access to Surf and Waterfall for (nearly) all Water Pokemon, Fly for all Flying Pokemon, and Strength in some way or another, it's fine with me.

 

[Planetes.]

I wouldn't mind HMs if you could delete them easily, but alas you have to go through nearly the entire game until you get to the move deleter.
I hope the Tms are hard to find though, it will add a challenge. They might put one up as a reward for a Wi-Fi quest.

 

[Ho-Oh]

I hope the Tms are hard to find though, it will add a challenge. They might put one up as a reward for a Wi-Fi quest.

There are some who don't have wifi though, which would make it hard for them. D:

 

[Planetes.]

There are some who don't have wifi though, which would make it hard for them. D:

wait, U haven't figured out that nintendo is EVIL yet?
They could give a crap who has Wi-Fi, I don't have Wi-Fi and I don't like it one bit.
Nintendo would stash away earthquake in a Wi-Fi mission if it made them money.

 

[Ho-Oh]

wait, U haven't figured out that nintendo is EVIL yet?
They could give a crap who has Wi-Fi, I don't have Wi-Fi and I don't like it one bit.
Nintendo would stash away earthquake in a Wi-Fi mission if it made them money.

...you may think they're evil, but there is something called being fair. The good TMs would have at least two options to obtain them, as opposed to a TM that isn't that known/good, which would be more likely to be in this "wifi mission".

 

[Precious Tears]

I love this idea--TMs don't disappear after using...
But I don't think we should put up a smile on our faces yet...
There are chances that new moves will replace some TMs,
and they can be our long-time favorite Ice Beam to the new favorite Stealth Rock :'(...
If they are really gon' change the TMs;
I just hope they'll take out the useless ones like Bullet Seed, Natural Gift etc...
Not the most fav ones!!

 

[MegaKuriboh]

YESSS!!! TMs no longer break after use!!!
Thank you Game Freak!!!!!!!

 

[Livewire]

wait, U haven't figured out that nintendo is EVIL yet?
They could give a crap who has Wi-Fi, I don't have Wi-Fi and I don't like it one bit.
Nintendo would stash away earthquake in a Wi-Fi mission if it made them money.

You can get Earthquake, like, 4 different ways in HGSS, just saying.

Nintendo isnt evil either, they're a corporation, and they need to make money, just like everybody else. And a nintendo wifi connection isnt that hard to obtain.

 

[austy14]

Yeah but then that won't cover the other water/flying types, who fit into that category but aren't birds or fish. Then that'd mean Geodude, etc, would need to naturally have strength and since they aren't creatures...

I was just using birds and fish as examples, but of course other pokemon with the ability should be able to. Like snorlax swimming, or tropius flying. And it would go to all of the HMs... like geodudes using strength and whatnot. But baybe, for whatever reason, lets say your pokemon couldn't do the skill with you untill you got a certaain badge, then you could magically surf whenever you wanted.